The Death penalty your opinion

[Irish star]

Not fast enough, 5 years max , but maybe some innocent my be doomed 

[pacovl46]

While there are certainly crimes that warrant a death penalty, it simply doesn't work as a deterrent because murders are committed under two circumstances only. It's either planned and therefore they plan it accordingly so they won't get caught and therefore they don't care about the consequences or it's a heat of the moment thing where someone just loses it, and in that state of mind they're not capable of thinking about the consequences.

 

The reason why it took 30 years in this case before they went through with the execution is that you have the option to appeal your sentence and it usually takes decades before all the appeals and options they have are finally exhausted. 

[Middle Aged Grouch]

We all would agree, quite a few heinous crimes do plainly deserve the gallows, no arguing about that.

 

But it's always the same dilema.

 

How to be 1000% sure of the guilt of the sentenced ?

 

Quite a few inmates in the death row were declared innocent after 20 or 30 years in the US jail death row and not knowing when their day would come. The tech progress in DNA sequencing and Crime Scene analysis has avoided quite a few lethal errors from the law.

 

Quite amazing to hear the americains give out lessons of humanity, law and justice to the world,  when they have enough to settle in within the US Criminal Justice system. 

 

An exemple would be in the statutory laws of different states that allow police to use lethal means ( shoot at sight), plainly when the officer "feels" threatened. No need for the notion of proportionality like many other civilised nations require before use of lethal force.

 

In other words, you pull out your ID a bit to fast from the glove box, the US police officer only needs to "feel" threatened and by law can shoot.  In other nations, lethal response from Police needs the suspect to carry either a firearm or a weapon and engages in life threathing acts.,  for the police to be able to shoot at sight.

 

[The Old Bull]

Two wrongs don't make a right. The state should not be in the killing business.

[TedG]

On 8/31/2024 at 4:29 PM, georgegeorgia said:

I was quite shocked to read that USA still has the death penalty 

 

 

A man yesterday after serving 30 years yes 30 years... . received the death penalty for murdering a teenager back in 1992

I was a bit traumatic reading that 

 

I feel now he has been punished enough, isn't it heartless after all this time to murder him as well ?

 

 

Let’s ask the teenager his opintion, but he can’t be reached for comment. 

[Longwood50]

On 9/1/2024 at 8:03 AM, brewsterbudgen said:

No civilised country should have the death penalty.

No civilized country should subject its citizens to being the victims of people who can't live in a civilized society. 

 

[Longwood50]

On 9/1/2024 at 9:17 AM, OneMoreFarang said:

Even if it is no deterrent, saving huge amounts of money for not taking care of scum for the rest of their lives is a good enough reason to kill them. 

While I agree with you one of the arguments against the death penalty is that it is actually more expensive to pay the legal expenses for all the appeals than pay for their life long imprisonment. 

The problem is that we have a legislature mostly comprised of attorneys who construct a system that benefit lawyers. 

In Singapore if a person is sentenced to death they get one appeal. That is to see if the trial was fair.  If the trial was deemed to be fair, the person is executed within 90 days not 30 years.  

Guess which country does not have a problem with crime. 

[Longwood50]

On 9/3/2024 at 3:16 AM, The Old Bull said:

Two wrongs don't make a right. The state should not be in the killing business.

So let me understand your position.  You do not favor someone who ruthlessly and heinously kills someone but have no problem with the government exterminating millions of babies who did nothing wrong. 

With the felon the person is given an a dose of medicine to tranquillize them while they receive a lethal injection. 

With the baby no such tranquilizer but a set of scissors is pushed into the back of the skull and the brain is sucked out or a set of forceps is used to pull the limbs off the fetus and deliver it in pieces. 

Liberalism is a Mental Disorder. 

 

[Sandboxer]

Premeditated murder that is proven beyond any doubt - immediate (as pain free as possible) execution upon verdict, no long appeals.

 

Life (no parole) or very long sentences for other homicide degrees.

 

Charge teenagers from 13....14 yrs of age as aduts.

[OneMoreFarang]

36 minutes ago, Longwood50 said:

While I agree with you one of the arguments against the death penalty is that it is actually more expensive to pay the legal expenses for all the appeals than pay for their life long imprisonment. 

The problem is that we have a legislature mostly comprised of attorneys who construct a system that benefit lawyers. 

In Singapore if a person is sentenced to death they get one appeal. That is to see if the trial was fair.  If the trial was deemed to be fair, the person is executed within 90 days not 30 years.  

Guess which country does not have a problem with crime. 

 

The problem which you describe exists in some countries like i.e. the USA.

I don't see that country as an example we should follow - even if most Americans think they are the center of the universe. 

 

[Longwood50]

On 9/1/2024 at 9:18 AM, Lacessit said:

Unfortunately, there are too many examples where innocent people have been executed

Oh really too many examples.  

Give me some. 

The one you quoted with Evans is from 1950.  I know this will shock you but forensic science has dramatically improved in the last 74 years. 

Also given the reluctance to impose the death penalty today.  Only 85 people have been executed in the USA since 2000.

Now by contrast there have been 380,000 homicides in the USA during the same period.  I know this will shock you but my concern does not fall with the insignificant to non existent number of people who are executed but rather with the 380,000  people who lost their lives by the acts of the criminal.  

I guess you only have empathy for the criminal and not the victim and their family. 

[Longwood50]

1 minute ago, OneMoreFarang said:

The problem which you describe exists in some countries like i.e. the USA.

I don't see that country as an example we should follow - even if most Americans think they are the center of the universe. 

Yes you  are correct. 

I am not sure it is solely a USA problem or if other bleeding heart countries let the prisoner linger for decades with endless appeals or not. 

In my opinion, executions like the  Old West, or in Middle Eastern countries were done publicly to create a deterrent to crime by showing what would happen if a person was found guilty and sentenced to death.  The world has sanitized the execution of criminals which in my opinion diminishes the deterrent. 

Perhaps some people think I am barbaric but I have no problem putting the person to death in a gruesome manner and publicly.  Maybe I am old school but there were a total of 85 people executed in the USA since 2020.  By contrast there were380,000 homicides in the USA during the same period.  My empathy lies with those victims and with preventing future victims and does not lie with the criminal. 

In truth, a life sentence at hard labor in a penal prison such as Russian uses is a far more severe punishment than death.  With the death penalty your suffering immediately stops.  With the penal prison you get to think about what your actions resulted in for decades while toiling in misery. 

[Longwood50]

On 9/1/2024 at 9:31 AM, spidermike007 said:

The average 30 year wait for execution in the US cost the state millions of dollars. That is completely unnecessary. Just get it done. Within 30 days. 

That is one of the arguments against the death penalty in the USA.  The problem is that the US congress is almost completely made up of attorneys who encourage policies that benefit the legal community. 

To me, the person is entitled to an appeal to determine if the trial was conducted fairly and the accused had the opportunity to present evidence of their innocence.  If a judge, jury and perhaps a review board are unanimously convinced of the guilt of the person I have no problem with them shortly after the ruling being put to death. 

With that said, the Russians put them in prison penal camps.  There they toil every day and are reminded of what they did and how they got to where they are.  Some call that cruel.  I call it reparations. 

[cjinchiangrai]

1 minute ago, Longwood50 said:

That is one of the arguments against the death penalty in the USA.  The problem is that the US congress is almost completely made up of attorneys who encourage policies that benefit the legal community. 

To me, the person is entitled to an appeal to determine if the trial was conducted fairly and the accused had the opportunity to present evidence of their innocence.  If a judge, jury and perhaps a review board are unanimously convinced of the guilt of the person I have no problem with them shortly after the ruling being put to death. 

With that said, the Russians put them in prison penal camps.  There they toil every day and are reminded of what they did and how they got to where they are.  Some call that cruel.  I call it reparations. 
 

So you are in favor of torture at the hands of the state? 

[ikke1959]

The death penalty should be in every country be allowed. There are people who are not worth living as you read the crimes they committed.. Serial rapists, serial killers, terrorists, schoolshooters,  and more ...Keeping them alive in heavy guarded prisons is very expensive and that money  could be spend much better instead of spending all the money and time to doctors, treatments, and food. And spare me the Christian values please, as in the bible they also talk about an eye for an eye, or cut a hand of for stealing and many more examples. Forgiveness if fine as you are not involved in the crimes committed, but who would you respond if your daughter is raped and slaughtered by a serial killer?? Would you be so forgiving too??

[cjinchiangrai]

Just now, ikke1959 said:

The death penalty should be in every country be allowed. There are people who are not worth living as you read the crimes they committed.. Serial rapists, serial killers, terrorists, schoolshooters,  and more ...Keeping them alive in heavy guarded prisons is very expensive and that money  could be spend much better instead of spending all the money and time to doctors, treatments, and food. And spare me the Christian values please, as in the bible they also talk about an eye for an eye, or cut a hand of for stealing and many more examples. Forgiveness if fine as you are not involved in the crimes committed, but who would you respond if your daughter is raped and slaughtered by a serial killer?? Would you be so forgiving too??

Ah Sharia, that works well. If your daughter is raped, you can just make her marry the rapist and it is OK. Alternatively, you can kill her for dishonoring the family (Men) by coming back alive. If you are going to implement horrifying laws, you need to implement them all.

[Longwood50]

45 minutes ago, cjinchiangrai said:

So you are in favor of torture at the hands of the state? 

Torture?  

No I am for a deterrent.  Putting them in air conditioned cells, with exercise facilities, color television, internet, free attorneys, three meals a day, free dental, and medical healthcare 

IS NOT PUNISHMENT IT IS A REWARD. 

Now these are who I should show some mercy and empathy towards. 

I am for the victim not the criminal.  

 

Torture, rape, and murders

[edit]

With five people now held hostage in the basement, Pierre told Andrews to get something from their van. Andrews returned with a bottle in a brown paper bag, from which Pierre poured a cup of Drano-brand drain cleaner. Pierre ordered Orren to administer it to the other hostages, but he refused, and was bound, gagged, and left face-down on the basement floor.^{[citation needed]}

Pierre and Andrews then propped the hostages into sitting positions and forced them to drink the Drano, telling them it was vodka laced with sleeping pills. It immediately caused blisters on the victims' lips, burnt their tongues and throats, and peeled the flesh around their mouths.^[6] Ansley, still begging for her life,^[7] was forced to drink the Drano, although Orren said she coughed less than the other victims. Pierre and Andrews tried to duct-tape the hostages' mouths shut to hold quantities of drain cleaner in and to silence their screams, but the oozing blisters prevented the adhesive from sticking. Orren was the last to be given the Drano, but seeing what was happening to the other hostages, allowed it to pour out of his mouth and then mimicked the convulsions and screams of his son and other hostages.^{[citation needed]}

Pierre became angry because the deaths were taking too long, and were too loud and messy, so he shot Carol and Cortney Naisbitt in the backs of their heads, killing Carol but leaving Cortney alive. Pierre then shot at Orren Walker but missed. He fatally shot Stanley before again shooting at Orren, this time grazing the back of his head.^[5]

Pierre took Ansley to the far corner of the basement, forced her at gunpoint to remove her clothes, then repeatedly raped her after telling Andrews to leave for 30 minutes. Afterwards, he allowed her to use the bathroom while he watched, then dragged her, still naked, back to the other hostages, threw her on her face, and fatally shot her in the back of the head. According to Orren's testimony, her last words were "I am too young to die."^[8]

Andrews and Pierre noted that Orren was still alive, so Pierre mounted him, wrapped a wire around his throat, and tried to strangle him. When this failed, Pierre and Andrews inserted a ballpoint pen into Orren's ear. Pierre stomped it until it punctured his eardrum, broke, and exited his throat. Pierre and Andrews went upstairs, finished loading equipment into their van, and left.^{[citation need}

[cjinchiangrai]

Just now, Longwood50 said:

Torture?  

No I am for a deterrent.  Putting them in air conditioned cells, with exercise facilities, color television, internet, free attorneys, three meals a day, free dental, and medical healthcare 

IS NOT PUNISHMENT IT IS A REWARD. 

Now these are who I should show some mercy and empathy towards. 

I am for the victim not the criminal.  

 

Torture, rape, and murders

[edit]

With five people now held hostage in the basement, Pierre told Andrews to get something from their van. Andrews returned with a bottle in a brown paper bag, from which Pierre poured a cup of Drano-brand drain cleaner. Pierre ordered Orren to administer it to the other hostages, but he refused, and was bound, gagged, and left face-down on the basement floor.^{[citation needed]}

Pierre and Andrews then propped the hostages into sitting positions and forced them to drink the Drano, telling them it was vodka laced with sleeping pills. It immediately caused blisters on the victims' lips, burnt their tongues and throats, and peeled the flesh around their mouths.^[6] Ansley, still begging for her life,^[7] was forced to drink the Drano, although Orren said she coughed less than the other victims. Pierre and Andrews tried to duct-tape the hostages' mouths shut to hold quantities of drain cleaner in and to silence their screams, but the oozing blisters prevented the adhesive from sticking. Orren was the last to be given the Drano, but seeing what was happening to the other hostages, allowed it to pour out of his mouth and then mimicked the convulsions and screams of his son and other hostages.^{[citation needed]}

Pierre became angry because the deaths were taking too long, and were too loud and messy, so he shot Carol and Cortney Naisbitt in the backs of their heads, killing Carol but leaving Cortney alive. Pierre then shot at Orren Walker but missed. He fatally shot Stanley before again shooting at Orren, this time grazing the back of his head.^[5]

Pierre took Ansley to the far corner of the basement, forced her at gunpoint to remove her clothes, then repeatedly raped her after telling Andrews to leave for 30 minutes. Afterwards, he allowed her to use the bathroom while he watched, then dragged her, still naked, back to the other hostages, threw her on her face, and fatally shot her in the back of the head. According to Orren's testimony, her last words were "I am too young to die."^[8]

Andrews and Pierre noted that Orren was still alive, so Pierre mounted him, wrapped a wire around his throat, and tried to strangle him. When this failed, Pierre and Andrews inserted a ballpoint pen into Orren's ear. Pierre stomped it until it punctured his eardrum, broke, and exited his throat. Pierre and Andrews went upstairs, finished loading equipment into their van, and left.^{[citation need}

Plenty of horrifying examples of criminals. Plenty of horrifying examples of unfettered state power as well. 

[Lacessit]

43 minutes ago, Longwood50 said:

Oh really too many examples.  

Give me some. 

The one you quoted with Evans is from 1950.  I know this will shock you but forensic science has dramatically improved in the last 74 years. 

Also given the reluctance to impose the death penalty today.  Only 85 people have been executed in the USA since 2000.

Now by contrast there have been 380,000 homicides in the USA during the same period.  I know this will shock you but my concern does not fall with the insignificant to non existent number of people who are executed but rather with the 380,000  people who lost their lives by the acts of the criminal.  

I guess you only have empathy for the criminal and not the victim and their family. 
 

How about you quote my post in full, instead of cherry-picking the bit you are choosing to mount an attack on?

 

The Innocence Project in America claims thousands of cases of wrongful convictions. Presumably that includes people who have been executed for something they did not do.

 

The causes of wrongful convictions in the USA include incompetent defenses, and concealment of exculpatory evidence by prosecutors looking for a good track record.

 

Saying I have no empathy for the victims is a cheap shot. How would you feel if you were marched to a place of execution, knowing you were innocent? Are you saying it doesn't matter, because the number is so few?

 

While you are adjusting your self-awarded halo, perhaps you could answer this question:

 

The homicide rate in America is 6.5 victims per 100,000 people. In Australia, it is 0.74 victims per year. Why do you think that is?

[brewsterbudgen]

58 minutes ago, Longwood50 said:

Torture?  

No I am for a deterrent.  Putting them in air conditioned cells, with exercise facilities, color television, internet, free attorneys, three meals a day, free dental, and medical healthcare 

IS NOT PUNISHMENT IT IS A REWARD. 

Now these are who I should show some mercy and empathy towards. 

I am for the victim not the criminal.  

 

Torture, rape, and murders

[edit]

With five people now held hostage in the basement, Pierre told Andrews to get something from their van. Andrews returned with a bottle in a brown paper bag, from which Pierre poured a cup of Drano-brand drain cleaner. Pierre ordered Orren to administer it to the other hostages, but he refused, and was bound, gagged, and left face-down on the basement floor.^{[citation needed]}

Pierre and Andrews then propped the hostages into sitting positions and forced them to drink the Drano, telling them it was vodka laced with sleeping pills. It immediately caused blisters on the victims' lips, burnt their tongues and throats, and peeled the flesh around their mouths.^[6] Ansley, still begging for her life,^[7] was forced to drink the Drano, although Orren said she coughed less than the other victims. Pierre and Andrews tried to duct-tape the hostages' mouths shut to hold quantities of drain cleaner in and to silence their screams, but the oozing blisters prevented the adhesive from sticking. Orren was the last to be given the Drano, but seeing what was happening to the other hostages, allowed it to pour out of his mouth and then mimicked the convulsions and screams of his son and other hostages.^{[citation needed]}

Pierre became angry because the deaths were taking too long, and were too loud and messy, so he shot Carol and Cortney Naisbitt in the backs of their heads, killing Carol but leaving Cortney alive. Pierre then shot at Orren Walker but missed. He fatally shot Stanley before again shooting at Orren, this time grazing the back of his head.^[5]

Pierre took Ansley to the far corner of the basement, forced her at gunpoint to remove her clothes, then repeatedly raped her after telling Andrews to leave for 30 minutes. Afterwards, he allowed her to use the bathroom while he watched, then dragged her, still naked, back to the other hostages, threw her on her face, and fatally shot her in the back of the head. According to Orren's testimony, her last words were "I am too young to die."^[8]

Andrews and Pierre noted that Orren was still alive, so Pierre mounted him, wrapped a wire around his throat, and tried to strangle him. When this failed, Pierre and Andrews inserted a ballpoint pen into Orren's ear. Pierre stomped it until it punctured his eardrum, broke, and exited his throat. Pierre and Andrews went upstairs, finished loading equipment into their van, and left.^{[citation need}

 

What are you quoting? Your sick fantasy?  At least put a link, and a 'torture porn' warning.

[spidermike007]

2 hours ago, Longwood50 said:

That is one of the arguments against the death penalty in the USA.  The problem is that the US congress is almost completely made up of attorneys who encourage policies that benefit the legal community. 

To me, the person is entitled to an appeal to determine if the trial was conducted fairly and the accused had the opportunity to present evidence of their innocence.  If a judge, jury and perhaps a review board are unanimously convinced of the guilt of the person I have no problem with them shortly after the ruling being put to death. 

With that said, the Russians put them in prison penal camps.  There they toil every day and are reminded of what they did and how they got to where they are.  Some call that cruel.  I call it reparations. 

Me too. And with the appeal, there should be a very short time window. Say 90 days. After that we inject you, baby. You crossed that line. See ya. 

[Longwood50]

3 hours ago, cjinchiangrai said:

Plenty of horrifying examples of criminals. Plenty of horrifying examples of unfettered state power as well. 

Now that is empty rhetoric. 

Show me any examples of unfettered state power where police or prison officials poured drano down someone throat and shoved a pencil through their ear. 

 

[BangkokReady]

On 9/1/2024 at 4:20 AM, SAFETY FIRST said:

Every country should have the death penalty, lots of animals committing horrendous, shocking crime in society, need to be put down. 

 

Even Thailand?!!!  😱

[BangkokReady]

On 9/1/2024 at 5:21 AM, scubascuba3 said:

Definitely should be death penalty with suitable safeguards. I've always thought that, purely because it's so expensive to keep people in prison.

 

So, for 1-10 years, imprisonment is OK, but more than 10 and we should just kill them?

[Longwood50]

2 hours ago, brewsterbudgen said:

What are you quoting? Your sick fantasy?  At least put a link, and a 'torture porn' warning.

Here you go take your pick 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hi-Fi_murders

https://exhibits.weber.edu/s/SC50/page/Hi-Fi

https://www.axios.com/local/salt-lake-city/2024/04/22/hi-fi-murders-ogden-utah-death-penalty

As to prisoners.  They receive 3 meals a day, medical care, dental care, a paid attorney, exercise equipment, color TV, and internet access. 

Being required to perform "work" is considered illegal. 

[cjinchiangrai]

12 minutes ago, Longwood50 said:

Now that is empty rhetoric. 

Show me any examples of unfettered state power where police or prison officials poured drano down someone throat and shoved a pencil through their ear. 

 

Failed history class, did we? Nothing empty about the records of state torture. 

[Lacessit]

9 minutes ago, Longwood50 said:

Now that is empty rhetoric. 

Show me any examples of unfettered state power where police or prison officials poured drano down someone throat and shoved a pencil through their ear. 

 

Get real, assaults and excessive force by law enforcement officers and prison warders are quite common. It's a fine dividing line between them and criminals anyway.

 

Why is it police body cameras frequently seem to malfunction? You think George Floyd was an isolated case?

[Longwood50]

Just now, cjinchiangrai said:

Failed history class, did we? Nothing empty about the records of state torture. 

Again empty rhetoric.  Show me SPECIFIC EXAMPLES in the USA where prison officials forced prisoners to drink Drano and shoved a pencil in their ear. 

Are their isolated instances of abuse of power.  However just how stupid do you have to be to say because certain officials whether police or prison officials abused their power that somehow that justifies the actions of criminals. 

[cjinchiangrai]

6 minutes ago, Longwood50 said:

Again empty rhetoric.  Show me SPECIFIC EXAMPLES in the USA where prison officials forced prisoners to drink Drano and shoved a pencil in their ear. 

Are their isolated instances of abuse of power.  However just how stupid do you have to be to say because certain officials whether police or prison officials abused their power that somehow that justifies the actions of criminals. 

I said unfettered state power, not US police or prisons. Your deflection is as ignorant as it is fraudulent.

 

How about your boss Vlad the Murderer? Boko Haram, Hezbollah, Trumps buddies in the Taliban, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Mao, Stalin, Mussolini........ How about Dick Cheney and his Gitmo thugs?

[Longwood50]

1 minute ago, Lacessit said:

Why is it police body cameras frequently seem to malfunction? You think George Floyd was an isolated case?

Yes police do wear body cameras.  If the police abuse their power tell me just how does that justify the murder rape and torture by criminals. 

As to George Floyd

Lets examine how treatment of an absolutely identical case when the victim was white and the police officer black.  The man was on drugs, had a heart condition.  The grand jury stated they could not separate that the death was caused by the mans ingestion of illegal drugs and his heart condition. 

As to Chauvin.  What he did was stupid but I don't believe he intended to harm or kill Floyd.  He knew he was being tape and there were witnesses.  As to Floyd, he was in the process of committing another crime.  He was in possession and ingested what has been considered an amount of Fentanyl sufficient to kill him.  He just had Covid.  He had heart disease.  He was complaining he could not breathe while in the back of the cruiser long before having his neck kneeled on.  He was only removed from the back seat because he was trashing it. 

One way or another.  You seem to be of the opinion that if the government oversteps its bounds and uses excessive force that somehow that gives criminals an open license to kill, rape, and rob people.  I do not.