Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part II

jwest10 · July 22

Adam,

isYes indeed have posted this and one further thing os the 50% Pension Income 100k and think the Personal Allowance for wife you does not work is 60k and if and when required a dual tax form to be submitted and yes have posted a fair bit on my experiences in the last week and before.

sometimewoodworker · July 22

1 hour ago, Mike Teavee said:

TBH I'm unsure of my maths now as I used this site https://ata-outsourcing.com/calculate-your-personal-income-tax/ which says that if you have an income of 84,000 pm you'll pay 6,900 THB tax which comes out at 82,800

But if I do it myself using the published tax bands then I come up with

60K @ 0% = 0 (Personal Allowance)

150K @ 0% = 0

150K @5% = 7,500

200K @ 10% = 20,000

250K @ 15% = 37,500

190K @ 20% = 38,000

... Total of 103,000 THB - So it might be you owe 21K pa if you've already paid UK Tax on the 1Million remitted.

Obviously if you have additional allowances (e.g. Wife, Kids, >65, Health Insurance etc...) then the number comes down.

You are missing quite a lot in allowances

Even if not a pensioner

a better site is https://www.uobam.co.th/en/tax-calculation

but even then it can’t account for the Thai OAP allowance nor received pension allowance or foreign tax paid

jwest10 · July 22

4 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

You are missing quite a lot in allowances

Even if not a pensioner

a better site is https://www.uobam.co.th/en/tax-calculation

but even then it can’t account for the Thai OAP allowance nor received pension allowance or foreign tax paid

jwest10 · July 22

16 minutes ago, jwest10 said:

Precisely sometime the over age (OAE) 65 190k is not listed anywhere on present forms as is the 100K 50% Pension Income and also 150K Exempt tax allowance for everyone of 150K but in the tax tables!!!
Many do not work at all but are entitled to the above in addition to those listed before in various posts and the form youe mentioned seemed to suggestvthose who are working.
Many well under the 560K possible tax ememption and these have been stated but not all are on the forms and as stated was told again by my local Revenue office today just to wait and they had no idea of this but others stating new formsare being implemented later on this year.

The exemptions far outweigh what I am getting with my State pension and other income and am not emplpyed.

21 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

You are missing quite a lot in allowances

Even if not a pensioner

a better site is https://www.uobam.co.th/en/tax-calculation

but even then it can’t account for the Thai OAP allowance nor received pension allowance or foreign tax paid

Edited July 22 by jwest10

samtam · July 22

On 7/20/2024 at 4:49 PM, CharlieKo said:

The amount of interest takes me above the 12,500 tax free sum. However I can only go by what my accountant and HMRC have told me. That is, I do not have to declare or pay tax on that amount in the UK.

As you mentioned, I think the total amount is around 17K GBP before tax is due in the UK. I am just below that threshold!

If the tax free allowance is GBP12,500, is the GBP17,000 (GBP4,500 above tax free) the minimum HMRC can be bothered to tax you?

7 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

Bearing in mind an Expat bringing in 1Million THB of already taxed income (e.g. Pension) from the UK is liable to a max of 1,000B (One Thousand Baht) tax for the year.

1Million THB = approx. £21,300

UK Tax on £21,300 .= approx. £1,750 = approx. 82,000 THB Tax already paid

Thai tax on 1,000,000 after minimum TEDAs = approx. 83,000 THB

... I just can't see see how Thailand won't lose Money (from Expats) by introducing this as it will drive people to:-

Not remit as much money & find ways of reducing their spends in Thailand (e.g. have more holidays outside of Thailand)

Not make any large purchases (Condos cars etc...)

Spend <180 days per year here.

Choose somewhere else to live.

There are obvious exceptions of Expats who get their income from things like Capital Gains where they haven't paid any tax but these are the guys who are even more likely to choose Options 3 or 4 and not only will Thailand not get any Tax from them, but they'll lose all of the money they would have spent if they were living here year round.

My spending pattern has already reduced accordingly, from 1 January 2024. I expect the uncertainty has made many others think similarly. I'm sure it has contributed to the declining property market, (along with the massive oversupply). Like the mythical "financial hub" fantasy, uncertainty is the last thing to encourage foreigners to buy property.

Mike Teavee · July 22

36 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

You are missing quite a lot in allowances

Even if not a pensioner

a better site is https://www.uobam.co.th/en/tax-calculation

but even then it can’t account for the Thai OAP allowance nor received pension allowance or foreign tax paid

Thanks, I note that the UOB site comes back with 84,600 on 84K (1,008,000 THB pa) as it gives everybody a 100K "Expenses" Allowance but I'm not sure what the criteria is for being able to claim this is. I know it's available for employment & pension income but I don't know if you could claim it if you were living on Rental/Dividend income.

However, in my mind I was thinking of somebody with the bare minimum allowances remitting pension already taxed in the UK so I should have also included this 100K allowance alongside the 60K personal allowance.

sometimewoodworker · July 22

45 minutes ago, jwest10 said:

Precisely sometime the over age (OAE) 65 190k is not listed anywhere on present forms as is the 100K 50% Pension Income and also 150K Exempt tax allowance for everyone of 150K but in the tax tables!!!

I think your computer is acting up again.

the tax forms are not available yet

the 100k possible pension allowance is a DTA thing so not listed

there is no “150K Exempt tax allowance for everyone”

it is that the first 150k in assessed income is taxed at zero a subtle but important distinction

The calculators are provided for individuals who are working in Thailand so not surprising that they don’t account for pensions or DTAs

https://www.moneymgmnt.com/tax/thailand-tax-calculator/

is an editable spreadsheet so you can add things

Provisionally my personal assessable income before I need to pay tax is at ฿57,500 per month and SWMBO has life insurance policies that will increase that amount and I haven’t included tax relief from the DTA

Edited July 22 by sometimewoodworker

Raindancer · July 22

7 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

I think your computer is acting up again.

the tax forms are not available yet

the 100k possible pension allowance is a DTA thing so not listed

there is no “150K Exempt tax allowance for everyone”

it is that the first 150k in assessed income is taxed at zero a subtle but important distinction

The calculators are provided for individuals who are working in Thailand so not surprising that they don’t account for pensions or DTAs

https://www.moneymgmnt.com/tax/thailand-tax-calculator/

is an editable spreadsheet so you can add things

Provisionally my personal assessable income before I need to pay tax is at ฿57,500 per month and SWMBO has life insurance policies that will increase that amount and I haven’t included tax relief from the DTA

What is the 100k you have listed as expenses? If my question is too intrusive, my apologies. I was just interested in that figure under "expenses" and what it comprised of.

sometimewoodworker · July 22

9 minutes ago, Raindancer said:

What is the 100k you have listed as expenses? If my question is too intrusive, my apologies. I was just interested in that figure under "expenses" and what it comprised of.

Not intrusive. It is a standard allowance for all, there is nothing required for proof

NB the figures I give above are provisional. I am going to have a conversation with a tax accountant next month

nothing I have posted is advice, it maybe totally wrong.

sometimewoodworker · July 22

37 minutes ago, samtam said:

If the tax free allowance is GBP12,500, is the GBP17,000 (GBP4,500 above tax free) the minimum HMRC can be bothered to tax you?

I have no idea where the idea that you start paying tax in the U.K. at amounts over £17,000

HMRC is convinced that you start paying tax at £12,500 unless you have something other than the basic allowance.

You can be very sure that HMRC will collect 20% in each pound over any allowance you may have.

jwest10 · July 22

39 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Not intrusive. It is a standard allowance for all, there is nothing required for proof

NB the figures I give above are provisional. I am going to have a conversation with a tax accountant next month

nothing I have posted is advice, it maybe totally wrong.

Appreciate it very much and yes as I stated do not work do my taxable income is zero and be interesting how your meeting wth the Accountant in August so oviously it will not be in my figures at all.
At the moment a very old PND 90 Personal Income tax list 60k twice and classified Personal Income Tax
PND 91 is titled Personal Income from Employment only has the 120k or 220k amounts listed.
We shall see in due course and thanks again
The form is for employment income of B57500.00 from Thailand is that correct or does it include other income so what happens to the 1st exempt tax of 150k then assume we have to claim and not very clear at all but we await the forms and again been advised today by my local Revenue office but even they do not know!!!

Edited July 22 by jwest10

TroubleandGrumpy · July 22

19 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

Firstly, you have to live in that "main house" for 12 months, otherwise, any capital gain can be taxed.

I have never suggested it's not going to be chaos. I have never suggested this is a well thought out and well planned policy. I have never suggested the TRD has been recruiting and training staff to gear up for this.

What I have suggested is the Thai's won't miss a chance to turn a baht out of it. It could be as simple as paying 500 baht for a TRD document for your extension, much in the way you pay 300 baht for a Certificate of Residence, even though they are free.

It could also be showing the TRD a balance sheet from your bank showing total money deposited and that's what you pay in tax.

I don't know what January to March 2025 is going to look like, and neither do you, but I can't see the Thai's missing out on their chance for more MONEY from farang, especially when this is a global tax.

I'll ask you the same question I asked another member. Say this does all just go away, how do you think the Thai's will withdraw from it?

My reply same as Stat's

TroubleandGrumpy · July 22

Regarding allowances exemptions and other deductions, they are fairly well documented and will probably be allowed for foreigners at the same amounts and under the same terms as Thais. However, there is absolutely no certainty over Expats using the provisions of the DTAs involved to gain additional exemptions, allowances, or tax credits. As one TRD publication has stated, just for them agreeing to tax credits, they recommend Expats get an official tax payment certificate from their home country's Taxation Department - and that is not an easy thing to do - especially when the start/end of the financial years do not line up (see last page). Foreign-sourced income tax-no logo (expattaxthailand.com)

sometimewoodworker · July 22

5 minutes ago, jwest10 said:

I stated do not work do so my taxable income is zero

A rather naive concept! I don’t know of any taxing authority that supports anything remotely similar

20 minutes ago, jwest10 said:

interesting how your meeting wth the Accountant in August

I will be sharing little of my meeting, other than general principles if I am even allowed

Raindancer · July 22

48 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Not intrusive. It is a standard allowance for all, there is nothing required for proof

NB the figures I give above are provisional. I am going to have a conversation with a tax accountant next month

nothing I have posted is advice, it maybe totally wrong.

Many thanks. I have the allowable deductions as posted by Mike Lister. But I don't see any allowances for " "expenses".

I'm not saying your table is incorrect.

My deductible allowance including the 1st 150k before tax is deducted, come to 560k

So, I guess we will just have to wait and see, if and when the TRD actually publish and enforce the latest statement for expats.

NJHOUSE · July 22

14 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

A rather naive concept! I don’t know of any taxing authority that supports anything remotely similar

I will be sharing little of my meeting, other than general principles if I am even allowed

Waste of money. Your meeting will yield no new insights.

JohnnyBD · July 22

I was thinking about several ways one can avoid paying PIT in Thailand, regardless of the type of visa you have. I will certainly use some of the options below. If anyone can think of any other options, please share them. Thanks...

1. Stay less than 180 days in-country (non-tax resident), remit as much money as you want tax free for future year's spending when you are a tax resident.

2. Stay 180 days (tax resident), remit less than the TEDA threshold, so as not to owe any taxes, can use previously remitted monies if needed.

3. Stay 180 days (tax resident), remit only pre-2024 monies

4. Stay 180 days (tax resident), remit only tax-exempt monies as per DTA such as; your US Social Security, gov't pensions, etc.

5. Stay 180 days (tax resident), get a LTR visa if one can qualify

Edited July 22 by JohnnyBD

jwest10 · July 22

53 minutes ago, Raindancer said:

Many thanks. I have the allowable deductions as posted by Mike Lister. But I don't see any allowances for " "expenses".

I'm not saying your table is incorrect.

My deductible allowance including the 1st 150k before tax is deducted, come to 560k

So, I guess we will just have to wait and see, if and when the TRD actually publish and enforce the latest statement for expats.

Raindancer 100% agree with you and yet again went around to my local revenue department and they have no clue but gave the same advice again about nothing.
A Thai friend who knows someone in the Revenue admits to hardly any knowledge of this issue but he manages to file his tax return in Jan every year!!

Raindancer and yes the very helpful Mike Lister agree with our allowances and again we await but may include it on sonehow the allwance box but we have no idea what this new form will be like and if anything like the old one will be just as confusing.
The Title of these forms PND 90 Personal Income tax states 60k personal Allowances x 2
On Pnd 91 and yes the only ones can find 2006 on Google stated Personal Income Tax from Income from Employment only and many of us do not bit did the 120k and 220k amounts.
We must wait and see tc and thanks all.
My Thai wife was asking.
LOL what are you doing"
Could not explain as we do not know ourselves but one has to laugh but have a good day and night.

Edited July 22 by jwest10

sometimewoodworker · July 22

32 minutes ago, NJHOUSE said:

Waste of money. Your meeting will yield no new insights.

You have no knowledge of my circumstances or of amounts I remit or am able to remit into Thailand or where and how those funds originate, nor of my holdings of fixed immovable assets and other assets.

I am reasonably confident that if you were to know my finances you would be unable to provide the strategies and advice I want with any confidence that they are legal, comprehensive and personally tax efficient.

If you are so confident I know of at least 1 major financial company that would like to hire you expertise, though I rather doubt that they would agree with your self aggrandising opinion.

jwest10 · July 22

6 minutes ago, jwest10 said:

Raindancer 100% agree with you and yet again went around to my local revenue department and they have no clue but gave the same advice again about nothing.
A Thai friend who knows someone in the Revenue admits to hardly any knowledge of this issue but he manages to file his tax return in Jan every year!!

47 minutes ago, NJHOUSE said:

Waste of money. Your meeting will yield no new insights.

My thoughts as well but who knows and some can not afford theie huge rates but Carl Turner and our own Mike Lister been amazing and thanks again indeed.

jwest10 · July 22

4 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

You have no knowledge of my circumstances or of amounts I remit or am able to remit into Thailand or where and how those funds originate, nor of my holdings of fixed immovable assets and other assets.

I am reasonably confident that if you were to know my finances you would be unable to provide the strategies and advice I want with any confidence that they are legal, comprehensive and personally tax efficient.

If you are so confident I know of at least 1 major financial company that would like to hire you expertise, though I rather doubt that they would agree with your self aggrandising opinion.

sometime
We would all appreciate it and good luck but do not like your answer to another recent poster ok

stat · July 22

15 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

All possible, but are they probable?

I could address each of your 8 points, but how relevant are they?

You have to remember, MONEY, MONEY, MONEY is there for the taking, in one way or another, and farang are soooooooo easy targets.

Have you ever known Thai's to walk away from easy MONEY?

However they could have come up with this money grab decades ago but never bothered...

stat · July 22

13 hours ago, ukrules said:

It's not though, money and those who have plenty of it are highly mobile if needed.

They're not getting mine as I won't allow it, that's why I'm now sitting in my apartment in Phnom Penh considering buying somewhere down here.

Theoretically you would pay more tax in Cambodia then in TH however I think they do not enforce anything in Cambodia regarding taxes

stat · July 22

6 hours ago, Phulublub said:

Really? Paying THB 1K a year is going to have people going elsewhere?

PH

There are expats who make 500K USD per year, they sure will leave.

beammeup · July 22

OK so one way to reduce amount possibly is file separate returns for you and your wife. Say we have a joint offshore account, remit half to yourself and she remitts the other half to herself. That way we would both get the first 150K at 0% + 65K and any other reductions.

sometimewoodworker · July 22

10 minutes ago, jwest10 said:

sometime
We would all appreciate it and good luck but do not like your answer to another recent poster ok

For anyone who finds my posts disagreeable there is the convenient ”Add new user to ignore list”function that is otherwise known as “Plonk” to those with rather extensive use of systems that significantly predate Sir Tim Burners-Lee’s popularisation of hyperlinking

motdaeng · July 22

9 minutes ago, stat said:

However they could have come up with this money grab decades ago but never bothered...

this minor change in the tax law aims to close a loophole that some wealthy thai individuals and

businesses have been exploiting to their advantage.

as a side effect, foreign tax residents in thailand will also be required to pay taxes.

TroubleandGrumpy · July 22

18 minutes ago, stat said:

However they could have come up with this money grab decades ago but never bothered...

I certainly hope that they will still be 'not bothered'.

TRD wrote letters to 100K Thais reminding them of income taxes - they did not write to Expats.

But me thinks they are being pushed to get as much as they can from everyone - including Expats.

ukrules · July 22

23 minutes ago, stat said:

Theoretically you would pay more tax in Cambodia then in TH however I think they do not enforce anything in Cambodia regarding taxes

I'm not paying anything in Cambodia, they also have a 183 day test which I will not meet for residency requirements.

Also due to the amounts involved it would definitely be a lot less in Cambodia but only for a year or two as most of the income will be at 35% in Thailand, specifically for this year and next year - this really did come at the wrong time for me financially, I was planning on using the 'next year' remittance method.

Edited July 22 by ukrules

TroubleandGrumpy · July 22

9 minutes ago, stat said:

There are expats who make 500K USD per year, they sure will leave.

Yes Indeed. I know one and he has left already - did so before 180 days were up.

I reckon any others will also have already gone - after moving any remaining money out of Thailand.

Or they are waiting for other reasons and will leave later - never to return.

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