Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part II

[JimGant]

6 hours ago, chiang mai said:

If you remit funds to Thailand from overseas, you are already part of the TRD system,

Ridiculous. Only if you remit a significant amount -- like many millions during the year -- would you possibly make a list of potential folks subject to a random compliance audit. Otherwise, TRD doesn't have the resources, nor any reason, to track the average remitter.

[Sandboxer]

I recently got a pink card. I'm told by the issuing amphur that the id # on the card concurrently acts as my TIN. Is this correct?

 

 

[motdaeng]

37 minutes ago, Sandboxer said:

I recently got a pink card. I'm told by the issuing amphur that the id # on the card concurrently acts as my TIN. Is this correct?

 

yes, it does! congrats to your pink id card and welcome to the TRD-family ... 

Edited September 6 by motdaeng

[Sandboxer]

2 minutes ago, motdaeng said:

yes, it does! congrats to your pink id card and welcome to the TRD-family .

 

Har har, thanks~~~

 

[JimGant]

16 hours ago, chiang mai said:

What I get out of what you have said is that you want me/us to say that foreigners who don't have a TIN and don't have millions in the bank, are perfectly safe because they are outside the TRD system (whatever that means)

Yep. Completely under the radar. Without the equivalent of 1099s or W-2s, like in the US -- TRD has no computer tracking of taxable income -- and they're certainly aware much remitted monies are non assessable per DTA, or by the decree for pre-2024 income. So, what's TRD going to do -- call in for a chat 300,000 farangs without TINs?

 

And what if they did? I would imagine most could prove that their remittances are non assessable income -- or for sure, all assessable income is less than meets the taxable threshold. Thus, another reason TRD wouldn't waste resources on non-productive chats.

 

No, forget getting a TIN, or for filing a tax return if no taxes are owed. There are no TRD bad days in your future.

[chiang mai]

1 hour ago, JimGant said:

Ridiculous. Only if you remit a significant amount -- like many millions during the year -- would you possibly make a list of potential folks subject to a random compliance audit. Otherwise, TRD doesn't have the resources, nor any reason, to track the average remitter.

Not ridiculous at all, it's a fact. If you remit funds to Thailand from overseas, the BOT and your bank are aware of your identity. If those funds start to earn interest then tax is deducted which is passed along to the TRD, regardless of whether or not you have a TIN. All the pieces of the jigsaw are there, ready for anyone to join them up, if they so wish. That is not to suggest for one moment that TRD would necessarily do that today, whether or not they would remains an unknown to forum members who can only guess at the answer. The issue of resources is also a red herring since no forum member is aware of the resources available to TRD nor their priorities. 

[chiang mai]

23 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Yep. Completely under the radar. Without the equivalent of 1099s or W-2s, like in the US -- TRD has no computer tracking of taxable income -- and they're certainly aware much remitted monies are non assessable per DTA, or by the decree for pre-2024 income. So, what's TRD going to do -- call in for a chat 300,000 farangs without TINs?

 

And what if they did? I would imagine most could prove that their remittances are non assessable income -- or for sure, all assessable income is less than meets the taxable threshold. Thus, another reason TRD wouldn't waste resources on non-productive chats.

 

No, forget getting a TIN, or for filing a tax return if no taxes are owed. There are no TRD bad days in your future.

If you say so, I feel so reassured and hope you won't mind your advice being quoted in the future.

 

BTW you are aware that details of all bank transfers in and out of the country must be reported to BOT for foreign exchange control purposes. I know for a fact that my bank reported my inbound wire transfer some 18 years or more ago because they called me and wanted to know the purpose of it and why such a large amount. (6 mill.) The year was 2004, the amount was actually 6.3 mill and the bank was UOB. Interesting to note that BOT called me directly after getting my contact details from UOB.

Edited September 6 by chiang mai

[TroubleandGrumpy]

On 9/1/2024 at 4:35 PM, KhunHeineken said:

Can you clarify who, exactly, you think is right, and who is wrong, and about what?

 

Below is Andrew Rigney's basic CV.  He appears to be well qualified and experienced. 

 

https://www.rbwca.com.au

 

Andrew C Rigney B Com, Dip Law (LPAB) FCA

 

Andrew joined the firm in 1998 while conducting his undergraduate studies at Macquarie University and became a partner in 2008. He is a tax and corporate business advisor across small/medium businesses, international subsidiaries and high net worth family groups. Andrew provides advice in all areas of taxation, structuring, asset protection and succession.

Andrew’s client base covers a wide range of industries including medical, construction, professional services, the legal profession and the not-for-profit sector.

Andrew holds a Bachelor in Commerce (Accounting) from Macquarie University and a Diploma of Law through the Legal Professions Admissions Board (formerly SAB). He was admitted as a Chartered Accountant in 2003 and advanced to fellowship in 2015.

 

Here's Carl Turner.

https://www.expattaxthailand.com

MEET CARL TURNER

 

Carl Turner is the co-founder of Expat Tax Thailand. With his extensive background in international personal finance, Carl is dedicated to offering clear, transparent, and tailored tax guidance. Motivated by a desire to simplify tax matters, Carl leads a team of TFAC-registered qualified accountants and dedicated customer support specialists committed to ensuring our clients receive personalised service that makes navigating Thailand’s tax regulations straightforward and stress-free.

 

Can you post your qualifications and experience so your "opinions" can be assessed for accuracy?  

 

Could it be because, maybe, just maybe, they will actually have to pay tax in Thailand, thus, now need professional advice? 

 

I think you should watch it and read it again.  No exemption for aged pensions.  Some government occupational pensions are exempt, but not the aged pension.

 

Remember, Article 18 relies on the provisions of Article 19, and Article 19 sets out government occupational pensions, not the aged pension. 

 

I've never accused you of lying, but I didn't see the screenshot.  Can you post it again please? 

 

Sure.  Go back in January 2024 and your answer MAY be different.  "TIT" right? 

 

Yes, but they are YOUR "views" and "opinions."  Can you post links, quotes, youtube videos etc from professionals that back up your views and opinions? 

 

Do you think your views and opinions hold as much weight as the many professionals that have been quoted  on the topic by many members of this forum? 

No No Yes No Yes No and No thanks

[Lorry]

52 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

If you say so, I feel so reassured and hope you won't mind your advice being quoted in the future.

 

BTW you are aware that details of all bank transfers in and out of the country must be reported to BOT for foreign exchange control purposes. I know for a fact that my bank reported my inbound wire transfer some 18 years or more ago because they called me and wanted to know the purpose of it and why such a large amount. (6 mill.) The year was 2004, the amount was actually 6.3 mill and the bank was UOB. Interesting to note that BOT called me directly after getting my contact details from UOB.

In this discussion about what TRD knows and what they care to know: 

My experience with them is, first of all they know very little. And they don't want to know more.

If I prod them to dig in their computers,  or if for reasons unknown to me they start digging by themselves - it's quite amazing what their computers can do.

But digging really means manually digging, using spade and shovel, wasting spare time they could use to eat somtam, and asking colleagues and bosses how and where to dig.

But they CAN do it.

[chiang mai]

28 minutes ago, Lorry said:

In this discussion about what TRD knows and what they care to know: 

My experience with them is, first of all they know very little. And they don't want to know more.

If I prod them to dig in their computers,  or if for reasons unknown to me they start digging by themselves - it's quite amazing what their computers can do.

But digging really means manually digging, using spade and shovel, wasting spare time they could use to eat somtam, and asking colleagues and bosses how and where to dig.

But they CAN do it.

Of course. And then there's the issue of who at TRD might have an interest. I doubt the average Somchai cares much but a few pay grades higher in regional HQ or Bangkok might be looking for career progression and decide to show some initiative.

[Danderman123]

22 hours ago, chiang mai said:

What I get out of what you have said is that you want me/us to say that foreigners who don't have a TIN and don't have millions in the bank, are perfectly safe because they are outside the TRD system (whatever that means). Unfortunately, there is far too much anecdotal and circumstantial evidence to suggest that wont be the case, sorry but that's the way I see things. I say these things based on my experience of working in banking and  also in tax rather than a gut feel or guess based on logic. Sorry that I can't oblige.

The reality is that very few Farangs are going to file Thai tax returns next year.

 

What do you think is going to happen to Bob in the village who doesn't know anything about the new Thai tax regulations and doesn't have a clue about filing a tax return?

[Danderman123]

5 hours ago, chiang mai said:

If you say so, I feel so reassured and hope you won't mind your advice being quoted in the future.

 

BTW you are aware that details of all bank transfers in and out of the country must be reported to BOT for foreign exchange control purposes. I know for a fact that my bank reported my inbound wire transfer some 18 years or more ago because they called me and wanted to know the purpose of it and why such a large amount. (6 mill.) The year was 2004, the amount was actually 6.3 mill and the bank was UOB. Interesting to note that BOT called me directly after getting my contact details from UOB.

Somchai who works for traffic police can *see* people on motorcycles whizzing by while not wearing a helmet.

 

He *could* stop them.

[andre47]

1 hour ago, Danderman123 said:

The reality is that very few Farangs are going to file Thai tax returns next year.

Maybe you are right, but do you realy think that the RD will tolerate this?

It is so easy to connect the Visa/Immigration with the tax compliance that everybody who wants to stay legally long term in Thailand has to pay tax on his/her inbound transfers.

[Danderman123]

1 minute ago, andre47 said:

Maybe you are right, but do you realy think that the RD will tolerate this?

It is so easy to connect the Visa/Immigration with the tax compliance that everybody who wants to stay legally long term in Thailand has to pay tax on his/her inbound transfers.

It is so easy for traffic police to stop someone riding a motorcycle without a helmet.

 

This is Thailand.

[chiang mai]

1 hour ago, Danderman123 said:

The reality is that very few Farangs are going to file Thai tax returns next year.

 

What do you think is going to happen to Bob in the village who doesn't know anything about the new Thai tax regulations and doesn't have a clue about filing a tax return?

The Bobs of this world need to take responsibility for living in a country of their choice where they are not hand held at every twist and turn. Bob will learn.

[Danderman123]

Just now, chiang mai said:

The Bobs of this world need to take responsibility for living in a country of their choice where they are not hand held at every twist and turn. Bob will learn.

I am convinced that this tax thing is a nothingburger and that, at best, the regulations will only be used to put the screws to a big fish who is already in the sights of the RD.

 

I think Bob in the village will remain ignorant of these new regulations for years to come.

 

Meanwhile, I am staying out of Thailand for all but 179 days this year, so I can monitor the situation.

[Yumthai]

36 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

The Bobs of this world need to take responsibility for living in a country of their choice where they are not hand held at every twist and turn. Bob will learn.

Bob will learn that nothing will happen bc this is Thailand.

[Lorry]

2 hours ago, Danderman123 said:

The reality is that very few Farangs are going to file Thai tax returns next year.

 

What do you think is going to happen to Bob in the village who doesn't know anything about the new Thai tax regulations and doesn't have a clue about filing a tax return?

You have said many times that hardly any farang files taxes here.

You may be a bit mistaken. 

I have friends who think 200 B is a lot of money. In Pattaya, and in the villages.  And I have always been surprised,  how well they know how to get back 185Baht 27 satang yearly WHT. 

These guys are worthless for TRD. But others in the villages have learned how to buy Thai government bonds. Now we are talking real money. 

 

I have no useful statistics, but neither have you,  I guess. 

Most farang I know do file, which doesn't mean much,  and I guess most farang you know don't file,  which doesn't mean much either. 

We just don't know. 

 

 

[anrcaccount]

1 hour ago, andre47 said:

Maybe you are right, but do you realy think that the RD will tolerate this?

 

It is so easy to connect the Visa/Immigration with the tax compliance that everybody who wants to stay legally long term in Thailand has to pay tax on his/her inbound transfers.

 

Yes, they will tolerate it, as they have done for the past 10, 20 or more years, where a very small/ neglible percentage of expats have filed tax returns.

 

Nothing will change next year.

 

What makes you think anything is changing? It's been " easy" to connect visa / immigration with tax compliance for many years.

 

Expats have been remitting current year foreign income ( technically taxable) to Thailand, blatantly for decades. It's never been enforced.

 

One rule update in the background, not aimed at expats, lots of pointless, speculative forum discussion and you have a classic "storm in a teacup".

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Lorry]

3 hours ago, anrcaccount said:

a very small/ neglible percentage of expats have filed tax returns.

Thx for telling us, I didn't know this,  as you can see from my post above yours. 

I am sure  you don't mind to tell us the source of your insight. 

3 hours ago, anrcaccount said:

What makes you think anything is changing?

Some think, something might change because the rules have changed.

They also think that the TRD is looking for lawyers to employ them, lawyers that know about DTAs, is indicative of change. 

 

Some people have been told by their local tax  office that things have changed. The TRD has also given public guidance,  in English F&Qs and in embassy interviews,  saying things have changed.

 

3 hours ago, anrcaccount said:

Expats have been remitting current year foreign income ( technically taxable) to Thailand, blatantly for decades. It's never been enforced.

 That is true  (no sarcasm).

And there was no statement saying "hey, guys,  time is up. From now on, you have to pay taxes like Thai people do. We won't overlook your tax evasion anymore"  ( no sarcasm)

 

It would be a very pleasant surprise if it turns out you are right. 

But it would be incredibly stupid to take it for granted.

 

 

[Danderman123]

5 hours ago, Lorry said:

You have said many times that hardly any farang files taxes here.

You may be a bit mistaken. 

I have friends who think 200 B is a lot of money. In Pattaya, and in the villages.  And I have always been surprised,  how well they know how to get back 185Baht 27 satang yearly WHT. 

These guys are worthless for TRD. But others in the villages have learned how to buy Thai government bonds. Now we are talking real money. 

 

I have no useful statistics, but neither have you,  I guess. 

Most farang I know do file, which doesn't mean much,  and I guess most farang you know don't file,  which doesn't mean much either. 

We just don't know. 

 

 

You misread my statement.

 

I stated that very few Farangs will start filing next year as a result of the new regulations.

 

I haven't met a Farang who knew about the new regulations. I did meet a guy working in a hotel who was paying Thai tax, but his company filed his return. I suspect that they won't add any monies that he remits to Thailand in next year's return. 

[Lorry]

8 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

You misread my statement.

 

I stated that very few Farangs will start filing next year as a result of the new regulations.

 

I haven't met a Farang who knew about the new regulations. I did meet a guy working in a hotel who was paying Thai tax, but his company filed his return. I suspect that they won't add any monies that he remits to Thailand in next year's return. 

Yes, I misunderstood. 

What you say is my experience,  too.

[chiang mai]

1 hour ago, Danderman123 said:

You misread my statement.

 

I stated that very few Farangs will start filing next year as a result of the new regulations.

 

I haven't met a Farang who knew about the new regulations. I did meet a guy working in a hotel who was paying Thai tax, but his company filed his return. I suspect that they won't add any monies that he remits to Thailand in next year's return. 

I disagree, I pretty certain we will see a surge in foreigners filing tax returns as a result of all of this. We've already had numerous reports of people consulting with "tax experts".

 

Just as an aside, you seem to base a lot of your opinions solely on the things you have seen personally and you take those anecdotal findings as fact......I think that's quite dangerous.

[motdaeng]

2 hours ago, Danderman123 said:

You misread my statement.

 

I stated that very few Farangs will start filing next year as a result of the new regulations.

 

I haven't met a Farang who knew about the new regulations. I did meet a guy working in a hotel who was paying Thai tax, but his company filed his return. I suspect that they won't add any monies that he remits to Thailand in next year's return. 

 

media and several sources, including a few embassies, have reported that the tax law has been adjusted and now also affects foreigners. expat associations are organizing information events on the topic, and so on. while a large portion of expats are aware of the changes, many are likely to ignore or downplay the new situation ...

 

i am sure, that expats with transfering a substantial taxable amounts into thailand (several million thb per year) have already taken steps in response to the new tax situation. they don't have the mindset of doing nothing and waiting, assuming that nothing will happen anyway ...

[TheAppletons]

Article in today's online edition of the Bangkok Post stating that TRD is drafting a law to amend the tax code to tax worldwide income of Thai tax residents, regardless of whether it's remitted to Thailand or not.

 

There had been discussion on here previously regarding this possibility and now it appears that TRD will attempt to go forward with doing so. 

 

It further describes that the law would pertain to personal income tax only (and not corporate income tax) but would exclude income from mutual fund investing abroad (except for private funds.)

 

Whether it passes into law or not is the question.

 

 

[anrcaccount]

1 hour ago, TheAppletons said:

Article in today's online edition of the Bangkok Post stating that TRD is drafting a law to amend the tax code to tax worldwide income of Thai tax residents, regardless of whether it's remitted to Thailand or not.

 

There had been discussion on here previously regarding this possibility and now it appears that TRD will attempt to go forward with doing so. 

 

It further describes that the law would pertain to personal income tax only (and not corporate income tax) but would exclude income from mutual fund investing abroad (except for private funds.)

 

Whether it passes into law or not is the question.

 

 

 

Article is a cut and paste repeat of the same article, posted in the BP on June 5th.

 

Nothing new, no new information.

 

 

[BE88]

 

Deleted

 

 

Edited September 7 by BE88

[BE88]

22 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

 

Article is a cut and paste repeat of the same article, posted in the BP on June 5th.

 

Nothing new, no new information.

 

 

 

 

Nope, this is the news of September 6th 21;41 because you understand well and not said on the future you not know 
 

 

Edited September 7 by BE88

[Thailand J]

2 hours ago, TheAppletons said:

would exclude income from mutual fund investing abroad

Happy to see this.

This is new.

If this is true, plus the DTA which exempts US SSA benefits, and my LTR visa, I will have no tax to pay here.

Edited September 7 by Thailand J

[RupertIII]

29 minutes ago, Thailand J said:

Happy to see this.

This is new.

If this is true, plus the DTA which exempts US SSA benefits, and my LTR visa, I will have no tax to pay here.

I picked this up some time ago and assumed that a mutual fund was the USA term for an investment fund. However not so in Thailand - Mutual fund means a body of persons who participate in a fund that is established and operated by an investment management company for a project under the law governing the control of trading activities that affect public safety and welfare.

 

You can find out further from https://www.rd.go.th/english/37749.html#section40 and search for mutual in your browser.