Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part II

[Mike Teavee]

1 hour ago, chiang mai said:

No. Dividends has its own with holding rate, as I believe property rental does. 

Thanks, I suspected as much so kept my remittances below 235K but thought it wise to ask on the off chance I was missing out on being able to bring another 100K over.

[stat]

20 hours ago, oldcpu said:

 

My pension situation is complex. 

 

I worked in Canada for 27 years paying tax to Canada then (qualifying me for a partial Canadian pension and Old Age Security), worked for a company in Germany for a bit less than 5 years paying tax to Germany then (but paid extra to Germany to get 5 year credit to qualify for a very small German pension which I now receive) and worked for a European Government organisation for 13.5 years (my tax money went to Ireland then before I retired - although I never worked in Ireland - this is a complex European organisation thing) and I now receive a pension from that European organisation.  I won't go into all its tax aspects here.

 

On the 'private' side, next year I will start receiving money from a Canadian Registered Retirement Income Fund (RRIF) (sort of like a US 401k) which will be taxed in Canada (per DTA), ...  and also some money from a private German Health insurance/pension scheme that my wife had my buy many years back (which I forgot about - and I assume taxed in Germany).

 

 

The Canadian pension and Canadian RRIF money will be taxed in Canada (per my understanding of the Thailand/Canada DTA). The German pension will be taxed (or not taxed) in accordance with the Thailand/German DTA (and in accordance with the Thailand LTR exemption on assesable income).  The private German Health Insurance pension scheme pension I assume will be taxed in Germany < not sure > Its small and I even forgot about it, until I received a letter a week ago from them reminding me ...  The European government organisation pension will be taxed or not taxed in accordance with my Thailand LTR visa.  I have always planned to have it taxed, so not being taxed by my having a Thailand LTR visa would be a nice financial perk/extra.

 

So regardless as to how this plays out, it won't affect my future plans for Thailand.   My wife is 13 years younger than myself, so my main long range financial future plan is to ensure she is looked after when I pass away (hopefully I don't pass away too soon).

Just try to make sure you do not remit the German gov. pension to TH. Best keep the pension aside in a different account if possible. So as long as they do not change to ww taxation you should be tax free. I do not know anything about the other pensions you mentioned, sorry.

[stat]

19 hours ago, JimGant said:

Why do you say that? The DTA says German govt pensions are exempt from Thai taxation.

 

I am not allowed to post sources in German here that confirm my statement, sorry.

[chiang mai]

21 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

Thanks, I suspected as much so kept my remittances below 235K but thought it wise to ask on the off chance I was missing out on being able to bring another 100K over.

Rental income has a 30% standard deduction but if income is received in first half year, two returns are due, June and January.

[JimGant]

5 minutes ago, stat said:

I am not allowed to post sources in German here that confirm my statement, sorry.

Someone already explained that your "government pension" was actually a social service payment of some kind, not a pension for services rendered to German government. This would be akin to the UK, where their State Pension is not for services rendered to the govt -- and is taxable by Thailand. But a UK pension paid for service to the govt is solely taxable in the UK -- same for a German pension paid for your work for the govt.

[Mike Teavee]

Just now, chiang mai said:

Rental income has a 30% standard deduction but if income is received in first half year, two returns are due, June and January.

Is that rental income from Thailand or does it apply to rental income from overseas?
 

Doesn’t matter to me as I can show that the 235K I sent over came from UK dividends (though commingled with rental income the dividends I received just before remitting the money far exceeded 235K) but would be good to know for future reference. 

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, Mike Teavee said:

Is that rental income from Thailand or does it apply to rental income from overseas?
 

Doesn’t matter to me as I can show that the 235K I sent over came from UK dividends (though commingled with rental income the dividends I received just before remitting the money far exceeded 235K) but would be good to know for future reference. 

Both, either/or

[JimGant]

2 hours ago, chiang mai said:

According to some members, filing a null return is not wanted and makes you a stupid person. But if you want to get back the tax with held on your interest, I would certainly recommend filing anyway.

Actually, if you're a Yank, you can still not be stupid by filing a Thai tax return to get back your withheld tax on interest -- and just take a tax credit on your US tax return for those Thai withheld taxes. No proof of Thai taxes withheld is needed with your US filing -- and if those taxes are below 20,000baht ($600), filing jointly ($300, single) -- only a single line item entry is required. For higher amounts, a Form 1116 is required -- but it's an easy fill. All this plugs easily into your TurboTax actions.

 

The only requirement is that you're unable to get a refund from the Thai govt. But to get a refund, you need a TIN. And as we know from this forum, there are plenty of examples of folks being denied TINs for not having a work permit, etc. Good enough excuse for an IRS audit. Thus, one more reason not to get a TIN -- and to avoid all contact with the TRD.

[stat]

2 hours ago, chiang mai said:

No. Dividends has its own with holding rate, as I believe property rental does. 

Uk dividends come without a withholding tax, one of the few countries without WHT like Singapore, Ireland and some Aussie shares.

Edited 17 hours ago by stat

[anrcaccount]

54 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

55 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

Is that rental income from Thailand or does it apply to rental income from overseas?
 

Doesn’t matter to me as I can show that the 235K I sent over came from UK dividends (though commingled with rental income the dividends I received just before remitting the money far exceeded 235K) but would be good to know for future reference. 

Both, either/or

 

So, are you advising that a foreigner (Thai tax resident) who remits rental income from a property located overseas, to Thailand, can claim a standard 30% deduction on the gross income? 

 

 

[Mike Teavee]

Another video from ExpatTax...

 

Not a lot new in there but I did spot that for co-mingled accounts they use the FIFO (First In First Out) method.

 

Edit: Also covers use of ATMs/Credit cards at 44:08 

 

Edit2: And LTR holders requirements at 49:08 (Interesting that LTR holders follow the previous rules so are still liable for Tax if they bring the income into Thailand in the same year that it was earned). 

Edited 6 hours ago by Mike Teavee

[chiang mai]

12 hours ago, anrcaccount said:

 

So, are you advising that a foreigner (Thai tax resident) who remits rental income from a property located overseas, to Thailand, can claim a standard 30% deduction on the gross income? 

 

 

I don't give tax advice, I suggest you go see a Thai tax consultant. 

 

But I can confirm the TRD Code allows a 30% standard deduction against rental income.

 

https://sherrings.com/personal-tax-deductions-allowances-thailand.html

 

 

[anrcaccount]

2 hours ago, chiang mai said:

I don't give tax advice, I suggest you go see a Thai tax consultant. 

 

But I can confirm the TRD Code allows a 30% standard deduction against rental income.

 

https://sherrings.com/personal-tax-deductions-allowances-thailand.html

 

 

 

Right, but you just advised the poster that this standard deduction applies to both Thai rental income and foreign rental income, remitted to Thailand.

 

If anyone has this advice from a Thai tax consultant, I'd be interested to hear it. 

 

Almost any foreign rental income is net of deductions and tax already paid overseas. To apply a standard deduction on gross rental income remitted, does not seem to make any logical sense. 

 

In addition, whether the standard deductions can apply to different income categories 1-8 as listed in your link, if these types of income were earned in a foreign country and remitted. This, again, appears to make no logical sense, as the regulations appear to be written, for only Thai sourced income. 

 

 

[chiang mai]

Just now, anrcaccount said:

 

Right, but you just advised the poster that this standard deduction applies to both Thai rental income and foreign rental income, remitted to Thailand.

 

If anyone has this advice from a Thai tax consultant, I'd be interested to hear it. 

 

Almost any foreign rental income is net of deductions and tax already paid overseas. To apply a standard deduction on gross rental income remitted, does not seem to make any logical sense. 

 

In addition, whether the standard deductions can apply to different income categories 1-8 as listed in your link, if these types of income were earned in a foreign country and remitted. This, again, appears to make no logical sense, as the regulations appear to be written, for only Thai sourced income. 

 

 

 

Your use of the word "advise" is a poorly disguised attempt at an argument or trap, informed would be a much more appropriate term.

 

The TRD Code does not say that Category 5 Rental Income is restricted to Thai properties only and as I recall, an EXPATTAX seminar mentioned that overseas property rentals are to be treated the same way.....that is what I semi-quoted/have referenced. Similarly, the TRD Code does not state that income categories 1-8 are solely for Thai sourced income. Since many Thai's have overseas investments in various forms, I can only presume the Code applies to that income or that lurking in the shadows is another part of the Code that we have yet to see.....I'm going with the former.

 

It was discussed a long time ago that any rental income that is remitted to Thailand would be considered gross of all home country deductions which would be replaced by the 30% Thai standard deduction, or, if actual expenses were greater and all receipts were available, the greater amount.

 

That these things don't make sense to you is of no interest to anyone apart from you. Perhaps you can gain more clarity and sense by fielding your questions to a tax consultant. In the meantime, you'll be doing me a favor if you would add me to your ignore list and I will do the same with you since you have now consumed any remaining goodwill that existed.

[anrcaccount]

41 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

 

Your use of the word "advise" is a poorly disguised attempt at an argument or trap, informed would be a much more appropriate term.

 

The TRD Code does not say that Category 5 Rental Income is restricted to Thai properties only and as I recall, an EXPATTAX seminar mentioned that overseas property rentals are to be treated the same way.....that is what I semi-quoted/have referenced. Similarly, the TRD Code does not state that income categories 1-8 are solely for Thai sourced income. Since many Thai's have overseas investments in various forms, I can only presume the Code applies to that income or that lurking in the shadows is another part of the Code that we have yet to see.....I'm going with the former.

 

It was discussed a long time ago that any rental income that is remitted to Thailand would be considered gross of all home country deductions which would be replaced by the 30% Thai standard deduction, or, if actual expenses were greater and all receipts were available, the greater amount.

 

That these things don't make sense to you is of no interest to anyone apart from you. Perhaps you can gain more clarity and sense by fielding your questions to a tax consultant. In the meantime, you'll be doing me a favor if you would add me to your ignore list and I will do the same with you since you have now consumed any remaining goodwill that existed.

 

 

You are certainly over thinking my response!

 

You also seem unable to engage with posters who do not agree with your "informing", or challenge your assertions. 

 

I'd be very careful with taking guidance from an agency that was created in October 2023, that would logically have limited practical experience filing Thai  tax returns and dealing with the TRD. 

 

If one of the established accountancy practices has any published advice re standard deductions on foreign rental remittances,  it would be great to see it.

 

As you say-  many Thais do have investments that include rental property overseas.

 

What I suspect (and happy to be shown as wrong) , is that in practice they have never paid thai tax on remittances of this income, regardless of year received. 

 

If it was common practice for Thai tax to be paid on this, there would be more published information available.

 

This scenario, which is one of many similar, highlights the difficulties inherent in the application of new POR interpretation.

 

Without significant further guidance from the TRD, consistent and practical application of thai taxation of foreign sourced income is going to be next to impossible.

 

Several major accounting firms and related associations have been highlighted this and have been actively engaging with the TRD. 

 

 

 

[chiang mai]

1 hour ago, anrcaccount said:

 

 

You are certainly over thinking my response!

 

You also seem unable to engage with posters who do not agree with your "informing", or challenge your assertions. 

 

I'd be very careful with taking guidance from an agency that was created in October 2023, that would logically have limited practical experience filing Thai  tax returns and dealing with the TRD. 

 

If one of the established accountancy practices has any published advice re standard deductions on foreign rental remittances,  it would be great to see it.

 

As you say-  many Thais do have investments that include rental property overseas.

 

What I suspect (and happy to be shown as wrong) , is that in practice they have never paid thai tax on remittances of this income, regardless of year received. 

 

If it was common practice for Thai tax to be paid on this, there would be more published information available.

 

This scenario, which is one of many similar, highlights the difficulties inherent in the application of new POR interpretation.

 

Without significant further guidance from the TRD, consistent and practical application of thai taxation of foreign sourced income is going to be next to impossible.

 

Several major accounting firms and related associations have been highlighted this and have been actively engaging with the TRD. 

 

 

 

Given your track record, it should come as no surprise that my response is what it was.

 

You have known for many many months that there are several aspects of Thai tax, affecting foreigners,  that some people want to see clarified. You also know that more information is supposed to become available at the end of the year, when the new forms and guidance notes are issued. If you think the large tax firms don't know the answers and you don't trust the smaller firms, it seems pointless trying to get answers here from anyone, especially when you are only ever going to challenge whatever you read, as you constantly have done. My conclusions therefore are that you are doing nothing more than trying to make your usual mischief, for which I have no time or interest. Goodbye.