Wall street very convinced ,its gonna be Trump

[stat]

13 hours ago, chiang mai said:

You are no longer discussing the assessability of cc transaction and are instead exploring ways to evade tax.

You are in no position to provide proof to your claim.

[stat]

On 10/18/2024 at 11:11 AM, chiang mai said:

I am more than pretty sure, I am certain in my own mind that is the case. The logical reasoning has been set out numerous times by various members, ATM withdrawals and electronic funds transfers are only the transport mechanism, just as carrying cash on a [lane is the transport mechanism. If TT remittances are potentially tax assessable, so is every other form of transport.

You cannot be sure as there is no proof, but still you are . Again there is no logic when it comes to dealing with tax law in any country and especially not in wonderful TH.

Edited Saturday at 05:02 PM by stat

[stat]

14 hours ago, anrcaccount said:

 

Hard disagree -it is perfectly reasonable to say something is unconfirmed, because....... it is unconfirmed!

 

It's also reasonable to state an opinion that something might be untrue, that's just as valid an opinion as stating 'you're certain' , in the absence of any confirmation. 

 

 

A point very well made!

[stat]

8 hours ago, chiang mai said:

I disagree with respect to logic and the laws of finance.

 

Your home country revolving credit agreement obliges the credit card company to pay, on your behalf, the cost of any goods or services that you authorise and in turn obliges you the cardholder to reimburse the credit card company.

 

In Thailand, you offer up your credit card as payment for the rent on your Bangkok apartment. The landlord accepts the offer and is provided with consideration, by the credit card company., on your behalf. Therein, the three essential components of any contract have been met, offer, acceptance and consideration and significantly, that contract was made in Thailand.

 

When the credit card company pays the landlord, the remittance has been made, on your behalf, for goods or services you specified and received whilst in Thailand.

 

With respect to iHerb: importing goods into Thailand using a foreign credit card strikes me as not Thai assessable (given all the usual criteria about the source of funds used to pay the bill)/

You are mixing up finance with tax law...

[stat]

Regarding the debate about cc transaction.

 

Why not take out a loan and pay the loan back several years later (when not in TH)? Should be OK in my mind.

 

My favorite still is to have the relatives pay my rent directly and hence gift me the money that should be OK in my book. In a lot of jurisdictions in the west it makes perfect sense to gift some money to your children.

 

My parents could even rent the house outright under their own names and I just life there as a caretaker.

[chiang mai]

3 hours ago, jacob29 said:

Malaysia has explicitly listed credit card payments as coming under the umbrella for FSI (foreign source income). That doesn't mean Thailand will adopt the same ruling, but odds are they will.

 

With fringe benefits there may not even be a transfer at all - if you're staying rent free at company owned premises, there are going to be tax implications. Which highlights that the precise method of payment is not the main consideration.

Thanks, that's useful to understand.

 

It seems Malaysia now joins a list of countries where credit card transactions van be  considered as assessible, either directly or vis some form of transaction tax. The anecdotal examples is mounting.

 

Fringe benefits and benefits in kind are embedded in the Thai tax code: 

 

"Taxable income covers both cash and benefits in kind".

 

https://www.forvismazars.com/th/en/insights/doing-business-in-thailand/payroll/personal-income-tax

 

 

[chiang mai]

2 hours ago, stat said:

You are mixing up finance with tax law...

The two things are part and parcel of the same thing, you should know that if you're working with international taxation! Where the contract is formed has a direct bearing on  its tax implications. If the purchase or contract was made overseas, it has no relevance to TRD, but because it was executed in Thailand is does.

 

Anecdotally: I spent one particular year working in Hong Kong but the work was such that I was in HK for less than 180 days in the tax year. HK PIT was taken from my salary every month, regardless of whether I was in HK of not. Bonus was paid at the end of the work and this was paid gross of tax. Ultimately the decision to tax my bonus or not came down to where my contract was signed, which was in the UK.

[Mike Teavee]

7 hours ago, Yumthai said:

Maybe you should the thread to understand my point.

 

You use a foreign CC in Thailand. It's a loan/credit line from a foreign financial institution/company. If it's never refunded (paying back only interests) it cannot be assessable income in Thailand.

Thank you Yoda... Thread shall I read to understand point you have (Sorry, I know it was a Typo but I couldn't resist 🙂.. In my defence I'm up before 4:30 so yet to have a coffee 🙂 ). 

 

IMHO the only germane point about Credit Cards is the money used to pay them off, if you never pay it off then clearly it's a loan & you've not remitted money anywhere, if you do pay them off then (IMHO) it becomes a discussion about the funds used to pay them off more than the credit card itself. 

 

Now, about that coffee.... 

 

 

 

 

 

[chiang mai]

1 hour ago, Mike Teavee said:

Thank you Yoda... Thread shall I read to understand point you have (Sorry, I know it was a Typo but I couldn't resist 🙂.. In my defence I'm up before 4:30 so yet to have a coffee 🙂 ). 

 

IMHO the only germane point about Credit Cards is the money used to pay them off, if you never pay it off then clearly it's a loan & you've not remitted money anywhere, if you do pay them off then (IMHO) it becomes a discussion about the funds used to pay them off more than the credit card itself. 

 

Now, about that coffee.... 

 

 

 

 

 

I keep coming back to try and understand why some countries regard credit card transactions as potentially assessable and why they should be, but as Gant asks, why loans are not. The possibilities I see are:

 

- the place where the transaction takes place is a key factor in forming the contract

- credit card operations are seen as a service and it is that which distinguishes it from pure lending.

- the sheer volume of credit card transactions and card holders makes them a more probable vehicle to try and escape tax, particularly in tourism oriented economies, which is why some Revenue Departments feel they must be included. 

- loans are equally as assessable but significantly rarer.

 

Ultimately, I agree it is the source of the funds used to pay the bill, credit card or loan, that will determine assessability but the ratio of the two must be phenomenally high. For every foreigner who takes out an overseas loan to buy property here, there must be millions of  people making credit card transactions using foreign cards where the bill is paid for using tax assessable income.

 

 

I

[stat]

8 hours ago, chiang mai said:

I keep coming back to try and understand why some countries regard credit card transactions as potentially assessable and why they should be, but as Gant asks, why loans are not. The possibilities I see are:

 

- the place where the transaction takes place is a key factor in forming the contract

- credit card operations are seen as a service and it is that which distinguishes it from pure lending.

- the sheer volume of credit card transactions and card holders makes them a more probable vehicle to try and escape tax, particularly in tourism oriented economies, which is why some Revenue Departments feel they must be included. 

- loans are equally as assessable but significantly rarer.

 

Ultimately, I agree it is the source of the funds used to pay the bill, credit card or loan, that will determine assessability but the ratio of the two must be phenomenally high. For every foreigner who takes out an overseas loan to buy property here, there must be millions of  people making credit card transactions using foreign cards where the bill is paid for using tax assessable income.

 

 

I

There is nothing to understand why one country has different laws and application of the law then another, one just has to accept it. I side with you that it is likely (60% I guess) that cc transactions will be considered assesable but how UK treats is only a very limited indication.

[chiang mai]

21 minutes ago, stat said:

There is nothing to understand why one country has different laws and application of the law then another, one just has to accept it. I side with you that it is likely (60% I guess) that cc transactions will be considered assesable but how UK treats is only a very limited indication.

And Malaysia.

 

The issue is not about why different countries differ in their taxation approach to CC transactions but why remitted loans in one country are not assessable whilst credit card transactions in the same country almost certainly are.

[stat]

21 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

And Malaysia.

 

The issue is not about why different countries differ in their taxation approach to CC transactions but why remitted loans in one country are not assessable whilst credit card transactions in the same country almost certainly are.

There is no issue. The lawmaker can decide that only Germans who post on AN under the name of Hayek are taxable in Thailand. They basically can degree what they want. There is no stringent logic in tax law. We can guess, but they can do what they want.

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, stat said:

There is no issue. The lawmaker can decide that only Germans who post on AN under the name of Hayek are taxable in Thailand. They basically can degree what they want. There is no stringent logic in tax law. We can guess, but they can do what they want.

You have no confirmed proof that is true, you don't know the answer to the question I raised  and are now just making things up.

[KhunHeineken]

On 10/16/2024 at 6:43 AM, Bluetongue said:

they are going to demand it off me.

Yes.  I have always said this is a possibility. 

 

It makes you go to them, rather than them chasing you.  Make sense, doesn't it?

 

On 10/16/2024 at 6:43 AM, Bluetongue said:

You’re being quite argumentative over a really quite benign couple of posts. But to answer you I have sufficient information that I can access off my phone to verify the source of my pension.

Not being argumentative. 

 

TIT.  How much do you think a TRD Officer will care what's on your phone at a boarder? 

 

Remember, you flight is leaving soon.  You will pay, or miss your flight, and they know this. 

 

On 10/16/2024 at 6:43 AM, Bluetongue said:

In the unlikely event that I have to show some clerk from the TRD this at the airport which you seem to think will be next year.

Why do you think it's unlikely? 

 

They have overstay desks. 

 

Why not TRD desks for a quick and easy few baht off foreigners who have stayed more than 180 days?

 

They fine you 500 baht for 1 day overstay, why not some BS "tax" for being in Thailand for more than 180 days? 

 

On 10/16/2024 at 6:43 AM, Bluetongue said:

I just don’t agree with you that it is this close. Are you suggesting that they will force people to lodge a return at the airport, or more simply just pay a large fine. If they do this they will have to announce it categorically in advance. 

You don't have to agree. 

 

I am not saying I am right and you are wrong. 

 

I am merely contemplating the Thai's milking the farang cow, and why, because they can. 

 

I have never said anything about lodging a tax return at a boarder.  

 

All I have ever said is "something" may need to be paid, either for an extension, or at a boarder. 

 

For some, that "something" may be a joke, compared to what what they should pay at law, and for others, who possibly should not have to pay anything at all, they may have to pay "something."

 

TIT.  You know the way it goes here.  Money, Money, Money. 

[chiang mai]

Numerous members have said that TRD should make Thai nationals pay tax, before making foreign residents pay and but they seem unwilling to do this. A regular tax poster took me to task (as is his frequent want and need) for saying that most Thai nationals don't earn enough to warrant filing a return, once TEDA is taken into account, so I dug into things more deeply.

 

The population is circa 70 million but the workforce is only 38 million, the rest are too young, too  old, too inform, too incarcerated or too something to be included.

 

About 11% of the population (7.7 mill) files a tax return but only around 6% pay tax. Most of that 11% will be from the workforce which  means 20% of the workforce files a return, a more reasonable sounding number.

 

Ah yes you say, but most people work cash in hand and don't declare their earnings. Possibly, but dig into that headline more deeply and all is not what it first appears.

 

The informal economy or grey market is said to equal 50% of GDP or around 8 trillion baht. Divide that amount by the number of people in the workforce and the average national wage of 15,000 baht per month increases to 30,000 baht.

 

BUT, over 55% of workers in the informal economy are agricultural workers, who earn two times lower than their counterparts in the formal economy. 

 

What all that leaves us with is around 25% of the workforce who have informal earnings that are not declared, those are the people the TRD needs to  target.

 

But the answer to the question, why don't Thai's file tax returns is simply answered, most of them don't earn enough to qualify to do so.

 

 "IF the average wage nationwide is 15k per month, most married couples with one child have enough in TEDA to qualify to not file a return".

 

Lastly, it's interesting that many foreigners who move to Thailand, do so for the lower cost of living. Yet they earn between three and six times the average wage but complain they are being made to pay tax when their much poorer hosts do not! Hmmm.

 

 

 

The size of Thailand's informal economy is estimated to be 48.4% of GDP (THB18.7 trill.) or 

Please credit and share this article with others using this link: https://www.bangkokpost.com/business/general/2745121/call-for-better-integration-of-the-informal-economy. View our policies at http://goo.gl/9HgTd and http://goo.gl/ou6Ip. © Bangkok Post PCL. All rights reserved.

 

More than half of informal workers, 55.4%, are in the agricultural sector, earning nearly two times lower than their counterparts in the formal sector.

Please credit and share this article with others using this link: https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/2708701/over-half-of-thai-workers-in-informal-sector. View our policies at http://goo.gl/9HgTd and http://goo.gl/ou6Ip. © Bangkok Post PCL. All rights reserved.

 

[Yumthai]

43 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

The size of Thailand's informal economy is estimated to be 48.4% of GDP (THB18.7 trill.) or 

Please credit and share this article with others using this link: https://www.bangkokpost.com/business/general/2745121/call-for-better-integration-of-the-informal-economy. View our policies at http://goo.gl/9HgTd and http://goo.gl/ou6Ip. © Bangkok Post PCL. All rights reserved.

 

More than half of informal workers, 55.4%, are in the agricultural sector, earning nearly two times lower than their counterparts in the formal sector.

I'm always wondering how is informal economy estimated... could be as close or as far from the reality.

 

46 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Lastly, it's interesting that many foreigners who move to Thailand, do so for the lower cost of living. Yet they earn between three and six times the average wage but complain they are being made to pay tax when their much poorer hosts do not! Hmmm.

I think most foreigners who complain about tax rather compare to locals earning an equivalent or higher income (taxed+informal), not the poorer crowd.

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, Yumthai said:

I'm always wondering how is informal economy estimated... could be as close or as far from the reality.

 

I think most foreigners who complain about tax rather compare to locals earning an equivalent or higher income (taxed+informal), not the poorer crowd.

Estimating the value of the informal economy is not hard. GDP is the value of everything that is purchased. Subtract from that the value of all things you can confirm and what is left is informal.

[Yumthai]

2 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Estimating the value of the informal economy is not hard. GDP is the value of everything that is purchased. Subtract from that the value of all things you can confirm and what is left is informal.

Yes but again all informal money does not 100% appear in GDP.

[chiang mai]

4 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

Yes but again all informal money does not 100% appear in GDP.

It has to, nothing escapes GDP measurement I n any economy. All undeclared income is used to buy something at some point.

Edited 1 hour ago by chiang mai

[Yumthai]

10 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

12 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

Yes but again all informal money does not 100% appear in GDP.

It has to, nothing escapes GDP measurement I n any economy.

 

https://www.bot.or.th/content/dam/bot/documents/th/research-and-publications/research/faq/FAQ_156.pdf

 

A Better Understanding of Thailand’s Informal Sector (2019) page 7:

 

4. Conclusions

The definition of the informal sector remains inconclusive, leaving ample room for further debates. Different approaches developed to estimate the size of the informal sector were explored and summarized in this paper, each having its pros and cons and yielding different results. Further studies could be done to develop alternative approaches to estimate the size of the informal sector,possibly through the use of surveys, administrative data, and estimation models.

[chiang mai]

6 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

 

https://www.bot.or.th/content/dam/bot/documents/th/research-and-publications/research/faq/FAQ_156.pdf

 

A Better Understanding of Thailand’s Informal Sector (2019) page 7:

 

4. Conclusions

The definition of the informal sector remains inconclusive, leaving ample room for further debates. Different approaches developed to estimate the size of the informal sector were explored and summarized in this paper, each having its pros and cons and yielding different results. Further studies could be done to develop alternative approaches to estimate the size of the informal sector,possibly through the use of surveys, administrative data, and estimation models.

I will read this later. Surely we can accept one of the many estimates already provided by bot, imf or world bank rather than focus efforts on trying to refine those estimates and make them precise to the last satang!