Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part II

[JimGant]

2 hours ago, MeePeeMai said:

There are many things to consider if leaving it all to your wife and further research on "Thai or Foreign Nationals inheriting IRAs etc." and what's involved in the process.

Save your breath. Again, the wife is a US citizen, thus, none of the things you mention apply to her.

[JimGant]

2 hours ago, Presnock said:

US taxes can be efiled

Not be a wife who can't even do email.

[MeePeeMai]

Just now, JimGant said:

Save your breath. Again, the wife is a US citizen, thus, none of the things you mention apply to her.

 

Okay I got that now (after 3 times in a row)

[JimGant]

1 hour ago, MeePeeMai said:

THEN you are required to file a tax return (even if you overpaid your estimated taxes or withheld too much from your salary).  Poster Presnock believes that you are not required to file a tax return (at any income level) as long as you don't owe any ADDTIONAL tax to the IRS.  That is false. 

Presnock is pretty smart. And, certainly, he knows that there are minor exceptions for filing requirements, like, have self-employment income exceeding $400.

[MeePeeMai]

3 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Presnock is pretty smart. And, certainly, he knows that there are minor exceptions for filing requirements, like, have self-employment income exceeding $400.

 

I think you got it backwards but 

 

I rely on what's clearly written in the IRS' website.  

 

You have to file an income tax return if your net earnings from self-employment were $400 or more. If your net earnings from self-employment were less than $400, you still have to file an income tax return if you meet any other filing requirement listed in the Form 1040 and 1040-SR instructionsPDF.

 

Link below.

 

https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employed/self-employed-individuals-tax-center

[Chetzee]

12 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

Maybe it's because English isn't your 1st language but you seem to have a problem with your interpretation of what people are posting. 

 

@Yumthai posted "Again, not updating your bank address is not a crime. I suggest you take advice from a real Lawyer." - which In no way says that they are claiming to be a Lawyer, just advising that you might want to take advice from one... or is it illegal to recommend somebody "take advice from a real Lawyer" in your world? 

 

..... reminds me of the old joke about the fishing vessel sinking in the North Sea .......   the English captain on the radio  "    we are sinking ....we are sinking   "

the German coast guard    "   yes all very good,  but WHAT are you sinking ? "         

[MeePeeMai]

Double post

Edited June 12 by MeePeeMai

[MeePeeMai]

32 minutes ago, MeePeeMai said:

37 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Save your breath. Again, the wife is a US citizen, thus, none of the things you mention apply to her.

 

Sorry double post so JimGant would know that I was addressing him.

 

This might be useful as well seeing that your US citizen spouse will be inheriting your IRA's and other assets in the USA and will be required to file a final year return for you (joint return?) especially if she takes distributions from your IRA's that year.

 

.... and also will be required to file on her own as a widow after your passing in future years (assuming she will be taking distribution(s) from her inherited IRA's at some point in the future).

 

https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/filing-a-final-federal-tax-return-for-someone-who-has-died

 

Oh wait, I forgot, she doesn't need to file any taxes after your passing.... never mind my bad

 

Carry on

Edited June 12 by MeePeeMai

[MeePeeMai]

4 hours ago, MeePeeMai said:

Have you ever gone several years without filing your taxes and then tried to file the current year because you now owe tax that year or you have a decent tax return on it?  I have.

 

The IRS will NOT ACCEPT you current year tax return until you file the previous years returns which have not yet been filed.  I've been there and done that. I have experienced it first hand.

 

Even if you are already dead JimGant.  Straight from the IRS' website (link in my last post above) - 

 

"If the deceased person did not file individual income tax returns for the years before their death, their surviving spouse or representative may have to file prior year returns."

 

 

Surely you don't want this burden to fall on your wife's shoulders after you die.  Not without some solid help anyway... and yes, she will need someone in the US to help her.  

[Mike Lister]

19 hours ago, stat said:

Glad to see you are no longer who you used to be so I can put you on the ignore list again 🙂

I feel we should make up and become friends and discuss tax like grown up professionals, what say you, I promise not to mention the war, how's about it? 

[JimGant]

18 minutes ago, MeePeeMai said:

If the deceased person did not file individual income tax returns for the years before their death, their surviving spouse or representative may have to file prior year returns."

 

 

Surely you don't want this burden to fall on your wife's shoulders after you die.  Not without some solid help anyway... and yes, she will need someone in the US to help her

Huh? The wife and I will file a joint return right into the year I die. What possible "prior year returns" are you alluding to?

 

Hey, give it a rest. I've got this thing covered.

[MeePeeMai]

5 hours ago, JimGant said:

The wife's checklist when I croak is -- don't worry about filing a US tax return. Why? Because I've got it setup that she'll overwithhold by about $400 of what her tax bill would be, if she ever filed. Which she won't,

 

Okay I'll let it go, sounds like you got it covered!  Cheers!

[JimGant]

1 hour ago, MeePeeMai said:

will be inheriting your IRA's and other assets in the USA and will be required to file a final year return for you (joint return?) especially if she takes distributions from your IRA's that year.

Both our IRA Required Minimum Distributions have 22% withheld, per agreement with Schwab, which completely covers any tax due on this, as we're not yet in the 24% tax category. I always take our RMDs in the first week of Jan, thus, should I die, that's out of the way for the wife -- as she needs my RMD out of the way to inherit my IRA. In any event, as previously discussed, this 22% withholding - which matches dollar for dollar the taxes due on the IRA distribution - means we've over withheld by about $400. And the wife can completely blow off having to file a tax return.

[JimGant]

1 hour ago, MeePeeMai said:

"If the deceased person did not file individual income tax returns for the years before their death, their surviving spouse or representative may have to file prior year returns."

 

 

Surely you don't want this burden to fall on your wife's shoulders after you die

What are you talking about? The wife and I will have filed a joint return right up to, and into, the year of my death. What "burden to fall on wife's shoulders" are you talking about?

 

OOPs, sorry. Double response.

Edited June 12 by JimGant

[stat]

6 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

Agreed 100% & that's been my point for many posts on this thread...

 

Peace 🙂 

You fail to understand that claiming a dta for your dividend withholding rate while giving a wong adress is already fraud. You utterly fail to understand the situation about preferred rates on withholding taxes on dividends. As soon as you receive a us dividend and the country adress in your account is not correct bam fraud.

Edited June 12 by stat

[Presnock]

17 hours ago, MeePeeMai said:

 

In the USA it does.  If you have income that they can prove (via 1099 form or W2's for example), they will not come after you for a long time if you do not file your tax returns, but they WILL get you eventually.  They just lay back, watch and wait until   1.  The preponderance of evidence is obvious   2.  It's more than worth their while to charge you as they can and will take EVERYTHING YOU OWN before you even appear in court.

 

I had a good friend in the USA who followed some "Tax is voluntary / unconstitutional / not mandatory" cult and he stopped filing and paying his tax returns for many years.  They let him slide for years until 6 months before he was eligible to retire and receive his pension, then they came to his home and arrested him (and his policewoman girlfriend) for tax evasion and not filing tax returns.  The police department fired him (they had no choice).

 

They SIEZED EVERYTHING HE OWNED including all of his bank accounts, his house (and everything in it including furniture and even clothes), his boat, his motorcycles, his cars and his empty lot that was passed down to him form his father.  They auctioned off all of his personal property and kept all monies and stock etc. that he owned.  He got nothing back (even though the tax and interest/penalties that he owed were significantly less than his total net worth.  

 

He went to Federal prison for several years and when he was finally released he was broke, destitute and homeless (no pension either).  He was also charged by the State of Hawaii for tax evasion and failure to file a tax return (though I don't know what happened in that case).

 

They can and will make an example out of some folks.  That was an eyeopener for me to say the least.

 

not filing a tax return was in the subject we are talking about - Thailand taxes - if one does not have assessable income nor does one remit assessable income one does not have to file a tax return (yet) in Thailand - I never mentioned one doesn't have to file in the US.....

[Presnock]

15 hours ago, JimGant said:

Certainly it doesn't in the USA. If you've overwithheld, or paid estimated taxes over your final tax bill -- and thus owe no taxes -- you don't have to file a tax return. Period.

 

The wife's checklist when I croak is -- don't worry about filing a US tax return. Why? Because I've got it setup that she'll overwithhold by about $400 of what her tax bill would be, if she ever filed. Which she won't, 'cause she wouldn't have a clue how to do it; no CPAs here in Chiang Mai; just gathering 1099s online to give to the tax preparer would be impossible; and going to Bangkok, or even by mail, would cost in the neighborhood of $300-400. What a hassle. Just donate $400 to Uncle Sam, save yourself any hassle, and consider it a wash with any tax preparer fee.

 

So, unlike Thailand, where, even if you don't owe taxes you're supposed to file if assessable income is 120000 -- and there's a 2000 baht fine if you don't -- the US has no penalty, nor legal requirement, for you to file, if no taxes owed.

for MeePeemail  - I didn't say in the US one has to file all I said was when we were/are discussing Thai taxes - I said one doesn' have to file if one doesn't have nor remit assessable funds.  One doesn't have to get a Thai tax ID either...that may be YET as once the final paper is submitted for our reading, they may change it to that we do have to get an ID and possibly even file when no assessable.  We still wait....

[Mike Lister]

If you have overseas rental income to declare next year, there's a standard deduction of 30% of gross rent to cover all rental related expenses. Alternatively, you can deduct actual expenses, if they are greater, but you will need to provide incontrovertible proof those expenses are genuine and essential.

 

If you import any rental income before 30 June, you will need to file an interim report hence two tax returns per year. If at all possible, wait until after 30 June before remitting rental income to Thailand.

[Mike Teavee]

4 hours ago, stat said:

You fail to understand that claiming a dta for your dividend withholding rate while giving a wong adress is already fraud. You utterly fail to understand the situation about preferred rates on withholding taxes on dividends. As soon as you receive a us dividend and the country adress in your account is not correct bam fraud.

Sigh... Another post that has absolutely nothing to do with my original point which, for the FINAL time is... Not filing a Tax Return is not the same as Tax Evasion... 

 

FWIW my UK accountant files my returns & they include my Thai Address on it for the UK Government who knows I do not live in the UK or I couldn't be Non-UK Resident for Tax if I did live there, neither needs to know that I live in Condo A and not Condo B, they just need to know that I am not-UK Resident, they do note that I live in Thailand but (possibly excluding US) I could probably live anywhere & it wouldn't make a difference to them as long as it's outside of the UK, nothing has changed with them since I moved to Thailand from Singapore. 

 

 

I don't use a DTA to claim anything, up until this year I've managed my remittances by using the last year's income rules, this year I'm remitting up until the point where I could potentially have to pay tax (235K), will do the same next year & then apply for an LTR in 2026... So hopefully I will never need to use a DTA to claim anything. 

 

Please don't witter on now about "Oh, Thailand is going to Tax you on your world wide income"  It hasn't happened yet & IF it does, I plan on becoming Non-Thai Tax Resident so won't need a DTA then either. 

 

 

Fun fact, it was my UK Bank that posted me to Singapore & it was them that suggested I use a UK Address (My Parents) as my correspondence address so take it up with them if I'm doing anything "Illegal". 

 

[Mike Lister]

Another point to remember when filing tax returns is that THB has been weak recently, the long term average against USD is closer to 32 than to 37, hence, there will be a 15% pickup in your favour at some point in future years..

[stat]

11 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

Sigh... Another post that has absolutely nothing to do with my original point which, for the FINAL time is... Not filing a Tax Return is not the same as Tax Evasion... 

 

FWIW my UK accountant files my returns & they include my Thai Address on it for the UK Government who knows I do not live in the UK or I couldn't be Non-UK Resident for Tax if I did live there, neither needs to know that I live in Condo A and not Condo B, they just need to know that I am not-UK Resident, they do note that I live in Thailand but (possibly excluding US) I could probably live anywhere & it wouldn't make a difference to them as long as it's outside of the UK, nothing has changed with them since I moved to Thailand from Singapore. 

 

 

I don't use a DTA to claim anything, up until this year I've managed my remittances by using the last year's income rules, this year I'm remitting up until the point where I could potentially have to pay tax (235K), will do the same next year & then apply for an LTR in 2026... So hopefully I will never need to use a DTA to claim anything. 

 

Please don't witter on now about "Oh, Thailand is going to Tax you on your world wide income"  It hasn't happened yet & IF it does, I plan on becoming Non-Thai Tax Resident so won't need a DTA then either. 

 

 

Fun fact, it was my UK Bank that posted me to Singapore & it was them that suggested I use a UK Address (My Parents) as my correspondence address so take it up with them if I'm doing anything "Illegal". 

 

You use a DTA via the bank to claim a beneficial withholding tax automatically when you receive a US dividend. You get 15% witholding on a US dividend in claiming UK USA DTA.

 

You signed a contract with the bank consenting that you will update your bank information immediately.

 

You do not understand the inner working of DTA application in the bank on your behalf.

 

You also fail to understand that a correspondence address is something entirely different then your tax residence adress.

 

I fully agree that TH has not implemented anything yet regarding WW income. I also think it is 50/50 that they will implement it in the next 2 years. However I do tax planning as if it were to happen, big difference.

 

 

Edited June 13 by stat

[jas007]

On 5/21/2024 at 2:50 PM, Mike Lister said:

How seriously a person ought to take this depends where they are on the risk line. If a person has multiple rental units, and doesn't file a tax return, and has multiple large remittances every year also, their risk level is fairly high. The typical pensioner on the other hand, the guy who remits only his pension every month, is tucked away quite nicely on the low end of the scale. That's not to say that at some point, measures wont be implemented to catch the the high income guy that will also ensnare and inconvenience the average pensioner. I think that's the risk that most people face, collateral damage. Whether or not the average foreigner is more at risk than the average Thai, I imagine that they are. This is simply because one call to Immigration to activate tax clearance certificates and it's game over, the average Thai doesn't face the same threat. 

 Sorry is this question has been asked and answered, but I’m too lazy to go back and read all the posts. 
 

Anyway, I’m sure there are many people like myself who transfer into Thailand only a portion of the money they receive from government pensions or from Social Security.  In other words, all the money sent into Thailand should not be taxable in Thailand, but only in the USA, per the clear language of the tax treaty which say such money is taxable only in the country of origin.
 

So, the question is: would such a person be required to file at all? The money is not taxable. None of it.  Or, if a tax return is required, what would one have to do to show that the money is exempt from taxation in Thailand?  How much do accountants in Thailand charge do do a simple return?
 

It would be nice to be able to ignore the whole thing until such time as the Revenue Department or other authorities questioned it, but then again, it might be easier to go ahead and file, even if no tax is due.

 

Can it be assumed that neither Social Security payments nor government pension payments constitute “earned income” for purposes of Thai tax law?

[Mike Lister]

5 hours ago, jas007 said:

 Sorry is this question has been asked and answered, but I’m too lazy to go back and read all the posts. 
 

Anyway, I’m sure there are many people like myself who transfer into Thailand only a portion of the money they receive from government pensions or from Social Security.  In other words, all the money sent into Thailand should not be taxable in Thailand, but only in the USA, per the clear language of the tax treaty which say such money is taxable only in the country of origin.
 

So, the question is: would such a person be required to file at all? The money is not taxable. None of it.  Or, if a tax return is required, what would one have to do to show that the money is exempt from taxation in Thailand?  How much do accountants in Thailand charge do do a simple return?
 

It would be nice to be able to ignore the whole thing until such time as the Revenue Department or other authorities questioned it, but then again, it might be easier to go ahead and file, even if no tax is due.

 

Can it be assumed that neither Social Security payments nor government pension payments constitute “earned income” for purposes of Thai tax law?

The answer is here:

 

[Mike Teavee]

14 hours ago, stat said:

You use a DTA via the bank to claim a beneficial withholding tax automatically when you receive a US dividend. You get 15% witholding on a US dividend in claiming UK USA DTA.

 

You signed a contract with the bank consenting that you will update your bank information immediately.

 

You do not understand the inner working of DTA application in the bank on your behalf.

 

You also fail to understand that a correspondence address is something entirely different then your tax residence adress.

 

I fully agree that TH has not implemented anything yet regarding WW income. I also think it is 50/50 that they will implement it in the next 2 years. However I do tax planning as if it were to happen, big difference.

 

 

SIGH... And yet another post that has absolutely northing to do with my point that NOT FILING A TAX RETURN IS NOT TAX EVASION . 

 

As I clearly stated in my post, my income comes from the UK & I know how withheld tax (& disregarded income) rules work on dividends in the UK, and (as I clearly stated) DTAs do not come into it for me as I manage my remittances to Thailand so I don't need to think about whether I'm covered or not.

 

Also in my post I clearly stated my plans if Thailand were to introduce tax on world wide income, so the big difference between us is you seem completely unable to read a post & understand it - I'd bet good money that your "Consulting for International Tax Companies" is as a Project Manager & not as somebody who actually understands it.

 

 

Edited June 14 by Mike Teavee

[CharlesHolzhauer]

On 6/11/2024 at 10:16 PM, stat said:

[...]I can put you on the ignore list again.

 

On 6/11/2024 at 10:19 PM, stat said:

Another add on the ignore list[...]

That's fine. That's what the 'ignore list' is there for. It lets you tailor your view of this forum and squelch out the noise. However, that won't hide from others that you are overbearing and arrogant, with a touch of self-imposed supremacy corresponding to the attitude of the bygone era of the master race.

I'm sure that proclaiming 'I'm going to put you on the ignore list' had you thinking that it would have some emotional or traumatic effect on the persons you were directing this 'ignore' alert towards. That is a child's expectation. If you're going to ignore someone, just do it. Don't announce it. Rather than disturbing the posters with an inane and petulant insult that they're going to get ignored, it instead reflects poorly on the childish mindset of the foolish person you are.

I took it upon myself to pass on this comment for you to comprehend. But then again, I might already be on your 'ignore' list. Oh well 🙂

Edited June 14 by CharlesHolzhauer
spelling

[jas007]

Mike Lister:

 

The section you quoted is of little help, other than to suggest the benefits would not be taxable as not “assessable.” To be sure, the information would be helpful to a Thai person receiving a pension from a Thai company.  In my case or for any person receiving Social Security benefits or a government pension from the U.S., the applicable tax treaty would apply.  The benefits are taxable in the country of origin, only. 
 

Anyway, my guess is that Thailand will not be abrogating the tax treaty anytime soon, just to collect a few baht from some foreign retirees remitting little into Thailand.  In my mind, the only question is whether a person like me would have to file at all.  Admittedly, I have a mindset based on my understanding of US tax law.  In the US, if a person has no taxable income, there’s no need to file.  For example, if the only money you receive in a given year is a gift from a rich uncle, you have no taxable income and no obligation to file a tax return. Gifts are not taxable to the recipient.

 

 

 

[Mike Lister]

11 minutes ago, jas007 said:

Mike Lister:

 

The section you quoted is of little help, other than to suggest the benefits would not be taxable as not “assessable.” To be sure, the information would be helpful to a Thai person receiving a pension from a Thai company.  In my case or for any person receiving Social Security benefits or a government pension from the U.S., the applicable tax treaty would apply.  The benefits are taxable in the country of origin, only. 
 

Anyway, my guess is that Thailand will not be abrogating the tax treaty anytime soon, just to collect a few baht from some foreign retirees remitting little into Thailand.  In my mind, the only question is whether a person like me would have to file at all.  Admittedly, I have a mindset based on my understanding of US tax law.  In the US, if a person has no taxable income, there’s no need to file.  For example, if the only money you receive in a given year is a gift from a rich uncle, you have no taxable income and no obligation to file a tax return. Gifts are not taxable to the recipient.

 

 

 

I didn't just post a section, I posted an entire guide which I had hoped you might read, not just because it contains the answer you need but also because you would learn other things.

 

The guide says, US SSc and government pension income is regarded as exempt income, it is not assessable and does not need to be declared on a tax return....it actually states the same, three times. I don't know why you mention Thai income et al since US SSc paid to Thai's is not covered by the treaty and is taxable here.

 

[JimGant]

11 hours ago, jas007 said:

So, the question is: would such a person be required to file at all?

Absolutely not. Don't get a TIN; don't file; don't worry.

[KhunHeineken]

On 6/12/2024 at 10:20 PM, Mike Lister said:

Another point to remember when filing tax returns is that THB has been weak recently, the long term average against USD is closer to 32 than to 37, hence, there will be a 15% pickup in your favour at some point in future years..

Just on this point, out of curiosity, I have a question for any member who has had to pay tax in Thailand before, for whatever reason.

 

From the time you are given your tax bill, how long do you have to pay it?

[Mike Lister]

1 hour ago, KhunHeineken said:

Just on this point, out of curiosity, I have a question for any member who has had to pay tax in Thailand before, for whatever reason.

 

From the time you are given your tax bill, how long do you have to pay it?

Upon filing.