Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part II

[NoDisplayName]

5 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

...except for individuals whose income from employment is THB 120,000 or less (for single persons) or THB 220,000 or less (for married persons) and in the case of having income from other sources (with or without employment income) of THB 60,000 or less (for single persons) or THB 120,000 or less (for married persons).

 

Shirley that would be ASSESSABLE sources only!

 

Seems clear that assessable income under the threshold does not require filing.

 

 

[Mike Lister]

Just now, NoDisplayName said:

 

Shirley that would be ASSESSABLE sources only!

 

Seems clear that assessable income under the threshold does not require filing.

 

 

If so, why the 2k fine for not filing a return, even if no tax due? This aspect is like groundhog day, it just keeps being challenged by the same old arguments, by different people 

[NoDisplayName]

4 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

If so, why the 2k fine for not filing a return, even if no tax due? This aspect is like groundhog day, it just keeps being challenged by the same old arguments, by different people 

 

Do we have any anecdotes of non-filers getting hit with a fine for not filing when no tax due?

 

If so, let's break down each particular situation and find a trend.

 

Otherwise, all we have is scores of anecdotes of potential filers being told by tax office officials NOT to file.

[NoDisplayName]

24 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

All persons earning income are required to file a tax return no later than 31 March of the following year for hardcopy filing and 8 April for online filing, except for individuals

 

 

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

Do we have any anecdotes of non-filers getting hit with a fine for not filing when no tax due?

 

If so, let's break down each particular situation and find a trend.

 

Otherwise, all we have is scores of anecdotes of potential filers being told by tax office officials NOT to file.

The mere existence of the penalty, is in itself, overwhelmingly supportive of the notion that returns are required to be filed. Trying to assess anecdotes seems foolhardy 

[Mike Lister]

5 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

 

Did you intend to quote more?

[NoDisplayName]

4 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Did you intend to quote more?

 

No, the quoted portion was sufficient.

 

"All..........except for..." explains when filing is NOT required.  Followed up with multiple accounts of persons attending tax office and being advised NOT to file tax returns.  Followed up with NO accounts of fines for non-filing when no tax due.

[Mike Lister]

42 minutes ago, JimGant said:

The only nonsense is Mike Lister's constant drumbeat about having to file a tax return if your assessable income exceeds 60000, 120000, or 220000 -- depending on your status. All my workers -- probably all the workers in my Moo Baan -- exceed these numbers. But few, if any, have income that exceeds the taxable threshold. So, why in the world would TRD want to see any filings from them -- or from farangs also without taxable income.

 

 

Thanks, T&G -- for the most sane utterance to come out of this discussion. Mike, not sure why you're such a troublemaker over this issue.....? Thailand -- and TRD -- are not interested in folks with no taxable income. Only you are, apparently.

I'm going to object to your post for a second time, on the basis that you fail to understand that we're all trying to find the correct answer. Except you seem to want to personalise attacks, just because my opinion doesn't agree with yours. The reality is that YOU have failed repeatedly to provide this forum with any credible substantiated facts that support your emotive opinion whereas I have provided you with quotes from both TRD and PWC, explaining why I believe what I do. 

 

YOU need to tone it down and reign it in.

[NoDisplayName]

9 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

The mere existence of the penalty, is in itself, overwhelmingly supportive of the notion that returns are required to be filed. Trying to assess anecdotes seems foolhardy 

 

In that case, we should all be hitting the tax office prior to international travel!

 

Section 4 novem (9) A foreigner departs Thailand without Tax Clearance Certificate as required by the Revenue Code shall be subject to a fine not exceeding 1,000 Baht, or an imprisonment not exceeding 1 month, or both.

 

A foreigner attempts to do as such shall be subject to the same punishment.

[JimGant]

29 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I wonder how many times we need to go round this loop before you realise that your opinion doesn't matter when it comes to what is required under Thai tax law:

Practicality vs reality. Sometimes we just have to move around a nonsensical decree -- and do the realistic thing. That this doesn't seem to bring law enforcement down upon anyone's head -- seems to state that the Thai govt realizes the stupidity of the existing decree.

 

Anyway, readers are, of course, allowed to make their own decisions -- based on the merits of this forum's discussions.

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

No, the quoted portion was sufficient.

 

"All..........except for..." explains when filing is NOT required.  Followed up with multiple accounts of persons attending tax office and being advised NOT to file tax returns.  Followed up with NO accounts of fines for non-filing when no tax due.

Sorry, I'm not trying to be pedantic but the statement didn't end with a period and it seemed incomplete.

 

From the PWC link I quoted earlier:

 

"and in the case of having income from other sources (with or without employment income) of THB 60,000 or less (for single persons) or THB 120,000 or less (for married persons)".

 

Are you suggesting this is wrong?

[Klonko]

45 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

That is contrary to big 4 advice, as posted.

Statements of the big 4 or other tax advisors are driven by the quest for new mandates and may be biased. Written tax law and TRD practice has been and can continue to be contradictory. It may however still be in the interest of the taxpayer to file tax returns in order to limit tax audits.

[Mike Lister]

4 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

In that case, we should all be hitting the tax office prior to international travel!

 

Section 4 novem (9) A foreigner departs Thailand without Tax Clearance Certificate as required by the Revenue Code shall be subject to a fine not exceeding 1,000 Baht, or an imprisonment not exceeding 1 month, or both.

 

A foreigner attempts to do as such shall be subject to the same punishment.

I can't comment on this because I don't know what mechanisms the TRD has for activating or deactivating clauses in the code and I'm not about to read through it all to find out. What I do know is that some classes of people, entertainers and musicians being two, are required to obtain TC Certs. So whilst the clause may not be active for the general population, it is at least active for some parts of it.

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, Klonko said:

Statements of the big 4 or other tax advisors are driven by the quest for new mandates and may be biased. Written tax law and TRD practice has been and can continue to be contradictory. It may however still be in the interest of the taxpayer to file tax returns in order to limit tax audits.

The issue here is what the law prescribes. In all my time both inside and out of Big 4, I have never known them to contradict tax code law in any country although I accept that Revenue Departments may not always follow their own rules precisely, uniformly all of the time. That aspect not withstanding, what level of advice can be given to the general population on this subject, to follow the law or follow the current practise? I for one would never recommend the latter, but that's just me, I don't like walking on quicksand and  much prefer bedrock.

[JimGant]

11 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

The reality is that YOU have failed repeatedly to provide this forum with any credible substantiated facts that support your emotive opinion

Sigh. I'll just let it lie that others here have substantiated that TRD is not interested in folks filing tax returns where no taxes are owed. Again, let the reader decide on, whether reality or legality, makes more sense.

[NoDisplayName]

3 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Sorry, I'm not trying to be pedantic but the statement didn't end with a period and it seemed incomplete.

 

From the PWC link I quoted earlier:

 

"and in the case of having income from other sources (with or without employment income) of THB 60,000 or less (for single persons) or THB 120,000 or less (for married persons)".

 

Are you suggesting this is wrong?

 

No, not if the translation is correct.  Only your interpretation is wrong, in my opinion.

 

All persons earning income are required to file a tax return no later than 31 March of the following year for hardcopy filing and 8 April for online filing, except for individuals whose income from employment is THB 120,000 or less (for single persons) or THB 220,000 or less (for married persons) and in the case of having income from other sources (with or without employment income) of THB 60,000 or less (for single persons) or THB 120,000 or less (for married persons).

 

Everyone earning income MUST file, except if employment income < 120K, and other source income <60K.  If I meet both conditions, I'm not required to file.

 

If not assessable, it's not considered income taxable by Thai authorities, and is excluded from calculations.

 

If I have income, then I must file, unless I meet both condition for the exclusion.  My only assessable foreign income (under current law) is that which I remit to Thailand after a certain date.  If not remitted, it's not assessable.

 

Otherwise, almost everyone must file.  Assume cheap charlie, no bank interest, no dividends, only remit actual savings from a genuine passbook savings account <100K, but still earning unremitted $20k capital gains in Latveria.  Under my interpretation, no file.  But your interpretation seems to be charles MUST file, or face a 2k baht fine.

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, JimGant said:

Sigh. I'll just let it lie that others here have substantiated that TRD is not interested in folks filing tax returns where no taxes are owed. Again, let the reader decide on, whether reality or legality, makes more sense.

No, others have not substantiated that at all. What has been substantiated is that if Joe Farang walks into various TRD offices around the country, they may well be told they do not need to file a return. Just like when they walk into a bank and are told they cannot open a bank account, ask for a residency certificate and are told it costs 1,000 baht, or any of the myriad of other things that people are frequently unable to do successfully.

[NoDisplayName]

1 minute ago, Mike Lister said:

No, others have not substantiated that at all. What has been substantiated is that if Joe Farang walks into various TRD offices around the country, they may well be told they do not need to file a return. Just like when they walk into a bank and are told they cannot open a bank account, ask for a residency certificate and are told it costs 1,000 baht, or any of the myriad of other things that people are frequently unable to do successfully.

 

Are we aware of any Joe Farang ever being fined 2000 baht for non-filing when no tax was due?

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

No, not if the translation is correct.  Only your interpretation is wrong, in my opinion.

 

All persons earning income are required to file a tax return no later than 31 March of the following year for hardcopy filing and 8 April for online filing, except for individuals whose income from employment is THB 120,000 or less (for single persons) or THB 220,000 or less (for married persons) and in the case of having income from other sources (with or without employment income) of THB 60,000 or less (for single persons) or THB 120,000 or less (for married persons).

 

Everyone earning income MUST file, except if employment income < 120K, and other source income <60K.  If I meet both conditions, I'm not required to file.

 

If not assessable, it's not considered income taxable by Thai authorities, and is excluded from calculations.

 

If I have income, then I must file, unless I meet both condition for the exclusion.  My only assessable foreign income (under current law) is that which I remit to Thailand after a certain date.  If not remitted, it's not assessable.

 

Otherwise, almost everyone must file.  Assume cheap charlie, no bank interest, no dividends, only remit actual savings from a genuine passbook savings account <100K, but still earning unremitted $20k capital gains in Latveria.  Under my interpretation, no file.  But your interpretation seems to be charles MUST file, or face a 2k baht fine.

We don't agree, that's fine. At the risk of opening myself up to another personal attack by Jim, I'm tempted  to ask why the TRD District Office that I deal with in Chiang Mai, hasn't turned me a way for the reasons you state and in fact have encouraged me to file. But I wont.

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

Are we aware of any Joe Farang ever being fined 2000 baht for non-filing when no tax was due?

I vaguely recall in the early days of thread 1, a poster did say he'd been fined for not filing, this was how the information about ten years back audits came to the surface.

[NoDisplayName]

1 minute ago, Mike Lister said:

We don't agree, that's fine. At the risk of opening myself up to another personal attack by Jim, I'm tempted  to ask why the TRD District Office that I deal with in Chiang Mai, hasn't turned me a way for the reasons you state and in fact have encouraged me to file. But I wont.

 

They will/may advise you filing is not required, but they WILL let you file if you desire.  That is no indication that filing is necessary.  Just that they don't want to argue.  Easier to let crazy handsome man file his paperwork if he wants.

 

Did anyone at the tax office tell you that you MUST file?  I would bet not.

 

After all, online filing is fun and easy!  Takes all of ten minutes, with no dividend receipts or bank interest statement required for upload.  You receive an official digitally-signed PD90 and receipt for your time......nice to have in the likely case the rules change again or the unlikely case you get audited.

 

As long as the rules stay the same, as effective from January of 2024, I intend to file online even though I'm convinced it's not necessary.  I'll just add it to the list of paperwork drills like online 90-day reporting and online FBAR filing.

 

If they go to worldwide income, or requiring bank statements and tax returns from foreign lands, then...............no.

[NoDisplayName]

13 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I vaguely recall in the early days of thread 1, a poster did say he'd been fined for not filing, this was how the information about ten years back audits came to the surface.

 

Details would be important for that one solitary anecdote.

 

WHY was the fine imposed?  Was tax due?  Was this a person employed in Thailand?  Was this a case of actual tax evasion?

 

I doubt the tax office picked a random foreigner to send a non-filing fine to.

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

They will/may advise you filing is not required, but they WILL let you file if you desire.  That is no indication that filing is necessary.  Just that they don't want to argue.  Easier to let crazy handsome man file his paperwork if he wants.

 

Did anyone at the tax office tell you that you MUST file?  I would bet not.

 

After all, online filing is fun and easy!  Takes all of ten minutes, with no dividend receipts or bank interest statement required for upload.  You receive an official digitally-signed PD90 and receipt for your time......nice to have in the likely case the rules change again or the unlikely case you get audited.

 

As long as the rules stay the same, as effective from January of 2024, I intend to file online even though I'm convinced it's not necessary.  I'll just add it to the list of paperwork drills like online 90-day reporting and online FBAR filing.

 

If they go to worldwide income, or requiring bank statements and tax returns from foreign lands, then...............no.

In all fairness, nobody at TRD has ever got in my face and said, "Mr Lister, you MUST file a return", but there again I've never given them cause to do so. 

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

Details would be important for that one solitary anecdote.

 

WHY was the fine imposed?  Was tax due?  Was this a person employed in Thailand?  Was this a case of actual tax evasion?

 

I doubt the tax office picked a random foreigner to send a non-filing fine to.

Dunno, dunno dunno. it's buried somewhere in the bowels of the first tax thread.

[JimGant]

7 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

They will/may advise you filing is not required, but they WILL let you file if you desire.  That is no indication that filing is necessary.  Just that they don't want to argue.  Easier to let crazy handsome man file his paperwork if he wants.

BINGO!

[NoDisplayName]

Just now, Mike Lister said:

In all fairness, nobody at TRD has ever got in my face and said, "Mr Lister, you MUST file a return", but there again I've never given them cause to do so. 

 

I'd like to see them try!

 

Last week, visited tax office to update my TIN card with new address.  Given my income/remittance data, tax lady said filing was not necessary.  I could file for return of bank interest withheld.  If I wanted to bother.

[Mike Lister]

Just stepping back for a moment....

 

It doesn't seem to me that any new evidence has been introduced into this argument to sway opinion one way or the other, apart perhaps from a smattering of heated emotion. On the one hand we have the PWC statement that has been interpreted differently by one member but on the other, we don't have any positive confirmation that filing is not required, other than anecdotes. 

 

The other things we don't have is any supportive evidence from any of the many tax accountants who have presented videos and Q&A's, stating that filing is not necessary. It seems to me this would be a major piece of news, if it were true. and correct. At least one is charging 7.5k/10k for basic filing assistance, which would be disturbing if the taxpayer found out he didn't actually need to file at all! So, pay your 7.5k/10k baht, receive your package of papers and a message thank you for payment and a second message saying you don't need to file...is that how it goes down! Somehow I kinda doubt it.

[atpeace]

10 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Just stepping back for a moment....

 

It doesn't seem to me that any new evidence has been introduced into this argument to sway opinion one way or the other, apart perhaps from a smattering of heated emotion. On the one hand we have the PWC statement that has been interpreted differently by one member but on the other, we don't have any positive confirmation that filing is not required, other than anecdotes. 

 

The other things we don't have is any supportive evidence from any of the many tax accountants who have presented videos and Q&A's, stating that filing is not necessary. It seems to me this would be a major piece of news, if it were true. and correct. At least one is charging 7.5k/10k for basic filing assistance, which would be disturbing if the taxpayer found out he didn't actually need to file at all! So, pay your 7.5k/10k baht, receive your package of papers and a message thank you for payment and a second message saying you don't need to file...is that how it goes down! Somehow I kinda doubt it.

This is the most entertaining topic on AN.  So what have we learned since October of last year?  There might be stricter enforcement of existing laws and we might have to file tax returns was what I already knew in October.   

 

I'm going to wire 1 million baht tomorrow into my Thai bank account.  You know much will be taxed? Life is about probabilities and the probability of me paying a dime in taxes is nearly zero in my estimation.  Have fun and worry about things that matter.  

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, atpeace said:

This is the most entertaining topic on AN.  So what have we learned since October of last year?  There might be stricter enforcement of existing laws and we might have to file tax returns was what I already knew in October.   

 

I'm going to wire 1 million baht tomorrow into my Thai bank account.  You know much will be taxed? Life is about probabilities and the probability of me paying a dime in taxes is nearly zero in my estimation.  Have fun and worry about things that matter.  

A huge amount really, but not everything sadly.

 

It depends which camp you're in and there are at least three. 

 

1) I need to file, I will file

 

2) I think I don't need to file, according to my interpretation, so I probably wont.

 

3) Sitting on the fence, waiting for a big announcement and things to be made more clear 

 

I'm in camp 1 because that's what my interpretation of the rules suggests. If I need to change to camp 2 later, that's a bonus. Those in camp 2 however, may have a problem switching to camp 1 later, without some explanation and scrutiny. As for camp 3 folks, what can be said, "hope springs eternal".

 

 

[Klonko]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

The issue here is what the law prescribes. In all my time both inside and out of Big 4, I have never known them to contradict tax code law in any country although I accept that Revenue Departments may not always follow their own rules precisely, uniformly all of the time. That aspect not withstanding, what level of advice can be given to the general population on this subject, to follow the law or follow the current practise? I for one would never recommend the latter, but that's just me, I don't like walking on quicksand and  much prefer bedrock.

Tax consultants state truthfully that tax returns must be filed even if no tax payable. It is i the law. But they do not opine on the  tax practice by TRD which is relevant to most people. I am almost sympathetic with tax consultants not to elaborate on the alleged practice, because it would mean loosing potential mandates. But you cannot use the tax consultants' statements to argue such tax practice by TRD does not exist. In the opposite, we know that at least many do not file taxes and have not been fined, and the silence of the tax consultants on this practice rather supports the point of view that tax returns "must" not be filed when no taxes are payable. 
 

No tax resident, except may be yourself 😉, would probably like TRD to abandon a tax practice contradicting written tax law but beneficial to the tax resident.