Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part II

[KhunHeineken]

26 minutes ago, stat said:

DTAs are usually quite similar so you could learn from the Aussie discussion. It takes 1 sec to check if a post is AUS specific and skip it, so no problem IMHO.

I agree.

 

There are already country specific forums.  This tax forum pulls in information, examples, links, opinions etc from all nationalities. 

 

If no interest, a quick scroll and move on.  What's the problem?

[Presnock]

On 9/6/2024 at 11:38 AM, JimGant said:

Ridiculous. Only if you remit a significant amount -- like many millions during the year -- would you possibly make a list of potential folks subject to a random compliance audit. Otherwise, TRD doesn't have the resources, nor any reason, to track the average remitter.

I opine that they will have the local banks provide a status of expat remittances.  If they do have access to any other sources for ATM or credit cards then that data may come to them somehow too.  I don't have the patience to read the CRS , FATCA or OECD guidelines for trading of banking info to have any idea but since my finances are so basic, I don't have to worry right now.  I did read where they will want "ALL workers in Thailand" to register in their plan to broaden the tax base but that this won't come about until the new laws are passed in 2025.

 

 

[KhunHeineken]

29 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

I don't give a jot what's in the Oz DTA, I'm smart enough to be able to look at my own country's DTA and understand the rules specific to me.

Can you post a link to your country's DTA.  I would be interested to have a quick read of the articles pertaining to income and pensions, and compare them to the Australia DTA.  

 

Perhaps some members for your home country haven't even read their DTA with Thailand as yet.

Edited September 18 by KhunHeineken

[Presnock]

On 9/10/2024 at 9:20 AM, motdaeng said:

 

i’m not entirely sure why you’re asking for proof. just a few points: do all shops and street vendors earning less than 10k per month ? are all shop's and seller's registered and paying taxes? do all thai people working in the entertainment and tourism industries pay their taxes? are illegal earnings and income from corruption and grey / side market activities subject to taxation? do all freelancers (facebook selling, etc) pay taxes? ... if you really believe that only a small portion of thais commit tax evasion and need proof of that, then i can’t help you ...

 

i agree that there are foreigners who don’t have to pay taxes due to the DTA and exemptions, or because of low pensions. however, not all countries have such generous treaties like the US with thailand, some have no treaties at all. if these individuals receive pensions certain sum of pension, they could already be paying taxes. 

 

i think it would be wrong to look the whole situation from just one perspective. there are foreign tax residents who sustain their lives in thailand also through investments, rental income (apartments/houses), stock market etc which results in paying taxes! some other situation, someone like to buy a car, land, house, or has to pay medical expenses with earnings (no savings before 31.12.2023). in all these situations, taxes must be paid ... just a reminder, taxes are progressive, ranging from 5% to 35%, which can result in a nice tax payment ... a easy, nice little earn for the TRD!

 

as we all know, this little change for the  tax law aims to close a loophole (used primarily by thai's), and we foreigners were not the reason for the law change. however, in my opinion, this does not mean that we are exempt from complying with this law. in a few years, it will become clear which group of us foreigners acted with foresight ...

Yeah on 13 SEP the deptuty finance minister said that they want to set up a new tax and welfare system for ALL thais - a negative tax scheme where richer tax payers will give money to the poor tax payers and basically setting up a welfare state,.  He said ALL thai workers will have to register as part of the extended tax base.  This is where I wonder if they will separate the Thai workers from the expats or if we too will have to register..

[chiang mai]

22 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Can you post a link to your country's DTA.  I would be interested to have a quick read of the articles pertaining to income and pensions, and compare them to the Australia DTA.  

 

Perhaps some members for your home country haven't even read their DTA with Thailand as yet.

Here, along with all the other DTA's.

 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/766.html

[stat]

43 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

I don't give a jot what's in the Oz DTA, I'm smart enough to be able to look at my own country's DTA and understand the rules specific to me.

If you think you have understood for sure how DTAs work you have not understood them.

[chiang mai]

2 minutes ago, stat said:

If you think you have understood for sure how DTAs work you have not understood them.

Yawn.

[Mike Teavee]

56 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

We already have USA, UK and Australia forums.  This forum is for all nationalities.  Should a few posts get a roll on for any particular nationality, so what?  Scroll a little.  Is that so difficult? 

 

I don't complain when there's a page of Americans discussing the IRS, or Brit's discussing HMRC. 

Tell that to your fellow countryman who called me "Delusional" when I was trying to explain why we were spending a lot of time talking about UK Taxes... The UK actually has Tax Laws based on remitted income, so maybe that might be worth looking to when it comes to the way Thailand approach taxes... Irony being the example was on "Withheld" (Franked) Dividends... Clearly he stopped at the word "Dividend" or he would have known better.... Zero benefit for UK, AUS should be good.  

 

Question? Does Australia have the concept of "Remittance Based" Tax for non-citizens bringing money into the country? 

 

Example question, how does AUS Tax authority treat Credit Card spend for Non AUS Tax Residents? UK (HMRC) has a clear set of guidelines & in the absence of any steer from TRD, it's those that I'll use when it comes to me using my UK credit cards in Thailand).

 

Edited September 18 by Mike Teavee

[chiang mai]

53 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

I agree.

 

There are already country specific forums.  This tax forum pulls in information, examples, links, opinions etc from all nationalities. 

 

If no interest, a quick scroll and move on.  What's the problem?

It's not so much the country as it is seeing six and eight compulsive posts from the same poster per page, not really adding any value nor even moving the topic to conclusions. It would be good it the volume were turned down.

[anrcaccount]

1 hour ago, chiang mai said:

It's not so much the country as it is seeing six and eight compulsive posts from the same poster per page, not really adding any value nor even moving the topic to conclusions. It would be good it the volume were turned down.

 

Sorry I can't resist, but this is indisputably pot calling the kettle black here Mr!

 

You're the No 1 contributor to pretty much every/any tax thread, and even some not related to tax, that turn into a tax discussion...........there is no contest. 

 

"Turn the volume down" would probably be a good advice for both yourself and most others who post on tax, I will include myself in this advice too.

 

 

 

 

[anrcaccount]

1 hour ago, Mike Teavee said:

 

 

Question? Does Australia have the concept of "Remittance Based" Tax for non-citizens bringing money into the country? 

 

Example question, how does AUS Tax authority treat Credit Card spend for Non AUS Tax Residents? UK (HMRC) has a clear set of guidelines & in the absence of any steer from TRD, it's those that I'll use when it comes to me using my UK credit cards in Thailand).

 

 

No such concept of remittance exist in Australia.

 

Regarding your credit card spend for , income is taxed, not spending. "ATO ( Australian HMRC equivalent) looks at when you earn income, not when you use it". Residency is irrelevant.

 

Source: https://community.ato.gov.au/s/question/a0J9s000000MSoN/p00183154

 

Personally I find the concept of taxing anyone's credit card spend as completely ludicrous and unenforceable. 

 

Does this actually happen in the UK, or is it just written in the laws? 

[chiang mai]

17 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

 

Sorry I can't resist, but this is indisputably pot calling the kettle black here Mr!

 

You're the No 1 contributor to pretty much every/any tax thread, and even some not related to tax, that turn into a tax discussion...........there is no contest. 

 

"Turn the volume down" would probably be a good advice for both yourself and most others who post on tax, I will include myself in this advice too.

 

 

 

 

Stop stalking me, enough already.

 

Anyway, the numbers say I'm a distant third in this thread.

Edited September 18 by chiang mai

[topt]

7 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

Does this actually happen in the UK, or is it just written in the laws? 

No idea but since it is directed at non doms who traditionally are at the upper end of the "rich" scale it probably comes into play if they ever audited and or serves as check for those who want to appear squeaky clean......

Maybe start here if interested ..or bored.....

https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/residence-domicile-and-remittance-basis/rdrm33520

 

 

[topt]

11 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

Personally I find the concept of taxing anyone's credit card spend as completely ludicrous and unenforceable. 

 

I did post some observations in the Tax guide thread on what CRS doesn't really specify in this regard but it was not really followed up. 

Based on what I understood (which is probably completely wrong) I don't see it being tracked in any transactional way by CRS specifically.

[Mike Teavee]

12 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

 

No such concept of remittance exist in Australia.

 

Regarding your credit card spend for , income is taxed, not spending. "ATO ( Australian HMRC equivalent) looks at when you earn income, not when you use it". Residency is irrelevant.

 

Source: https://community.ato.gov.au/s/question/a0J9s000000MSoN/p00183154

 

Personally I find the concept of taxing anyone's credit card spend as completely ludicrous and unenforceable. 

 

Does this actually happen in the UK, or is it just written in the laws? 

That's my point, in the UK HMRC has clear guidelines that if you use a Foreign Credit Card to purchase Goods or Services in the UK and then pay the resulting bill using money from a Foreign Bank Account you are remitting money into the UK. 

 

Very clear & if we're honest with ourselves, it makes perfect sense. 

 

And yes, this is how the UK taxes UK Tax Residents, citizens or Non-Citizens doesn't matter as long as they're Tax Resident.

 

But then again, maybe I'm delusional because some Aussie wants to try to school me on how Remittance based Taxation works... 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 18 by Mike Teavee

[topt]

4 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

But then again, maybe I'm delusional because some Aussie wants to try to school me on how Remittance based Taxation works... 

If you remember, or saw, he also decried at least 3 UK members observations on UK domicile even when one of them had actually been through the process...... 

Arguments for the sake of would be a polite way to look at it. So delusional - in this instance probably yes......

[Mike Teavee]

Just now, topt said:

If you remember, or saw, he also decried at least 3 UK members observations on UK domicile even when one of them had actually been through the process...... 

Arguments for the sake of would be a polite way to look at it. So delusional - in this instance probably yes......

In fairness I wasn't referring to @anrcaccountwho whilst challenging in his views has made his points without reverting to name calling... 

 

I was referring to the earlier exchanges when we were talking about withheld tax on UK Dividends & I literally have to beat myself around the head to try understand why an Aussie paying Franking Tax wouldn't have been interested in that... But maybe that's why I'm delusional. 

 

Edited September 18 by Mike Teavee

[topt]

1 minute ago, Mike Teavee said:

In fairness I wasn't referring to @anrcaccountwho whilst challenging in his views has made his points without reverting to name calling... 

My apologies as I was not referring to the poster you mention above so you must not have seen the exchange I am referring to. 

[Mike Teavee]

2 minutes ago, topt said:

My apologies as I was not referring to the poster you mention above so you must not have seen the exchange I am referring to. 

Apologies, I figured you hadn't seen the exchange I was referring to which happened several weeks back, I've sort of given up on this thread since then.

 

Ironically we should all be on the same side and want to learn from each other.... 🙂 

[stat]

2 hours ago, topt said:

I did post some observations in the Tax guide thread on what CRS doesn't really specify in this regard but it was not really followed up. 

Based on what I understood (which is probably completely wrong) I don't see it being tracked in any transactional way by CRS specifically.

You are in the right! CRS/Fatca does not track transactions, it tracks aggregated volumes and account balances. However they could ask the thai banks to provide data on cc transactions however I doubt that will happen in 2025. In addition I currently see no way they could link John Smith as being the John Smith in Phuket or the Joe Smith in Leeds, maybe use one cc with your old adress at your home bank, however you are obliged legally to update your info 😉.

[Lorry]

43 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

What "conclusion" has ANYONE come to from your posts, ZERO

I beg to differ. 

So don't talk about "ANYONE", talk about yourself.

 

 I still remember the time when you, too,  Mr Heineken, posted useful things. 

That's why I still read your posts.  But lately, I found them not very interesting, one reason is I am not from Australia.

 

I would very much prefer a thread for each nationality. 

I don't know what is a superannuated IRA (401) for non-doms, neither do I want to know.

Edited September 18 by Lorry

[KhunHeineken]

4 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

Tell that to your fellow countryman who called me "Delusional" when I was trying to explain why we were spending a lot of time talking about UK Taxes... The UK actually has Tax Laws based on remitted income, so maybe that might be worth looking to when it comes to the way Thailand approach taxes... Irony being the example was on "Withheld" (Franked) Dividends... Clearly he stopped at the word "Dividend" or he would have known better.... Zero benefit for UK, AUS should be good.  

 

Question? Does Australia have the concept of "Remittance Based" Tax for non-citizens bringing money into the country? 

 

Example question, how does AUS Tax authority treat Credit Card spend for Non AUS Tax Residents? UK (HMRC) has a clear set of guidelines & in the absence of any steer from TRD, it's those that I'll use when it comes to me using my UK credit cards in Thailand).

 

Many Aussie members in the Australia Forum still refuse to accept Australia has proposed changes to move from 90 year old tax residency laws, based around where one is "domiciled" to a time based and physical presence model, just like good old 3rd World Thailand, with its 180 days  

 

The reasons for many of them believing it not happening were hilarious.  However, it's the psychology behind it that is interesting.  People fear change, and it can be seen in their posts by shooting the messenger, and reporting posts as "scaremongering." 

 

Even more hilarious were the reasons many put forward why they would still remain a tax resident of Australia, in order to to avail themselves of the tax free threshold, with no regard to the proposed changes to legislation at all.  

 

One member suggested he still had a current Medicare Card, so was still a tax resident of Australia.    

 

It makes you think who really is "delusional." 

 

Then, along comes Thailand's announcement of their 180 days tax residency for foreigners, but NO WAY would Australia ever do such a thing to non resident Australians. 

 

There's probably some Aussies that believe their Thal missus, who maybe outside of Thailand for for more than 180 days, is still a tax resident of Thailand.  

[KhunHeineken]

8 minutes ago, Lorry said:

Mr Heineken, posted useful things. 

Still does.

 

8 minutes ago, Lorry said:

That's why I still read your posts. 

Keep reading. 

 

I post good content. 

 

           

[KhunHeineken]

2 hours ago, stat said:

I was concerned about someone else you mentioned becoming an admin 🙂 Your posts add to this thread!

Thanks. 

 

I enjoy reading all posts, from everyone.  I am always happy to agree to disagree, but when some get nasty, I'm also happy to engage. 

 

As I said, I have never reported a post, ever, and never will, and some members take advantage of that admission. 

 

Free speech is important.  Why shut it down, just because it differs from one's point of view?

 

Websites like this should be viewed as collaboration, rather than "I'm right and you are wrong" which defeats the purpose, and causes conflict. 

 

Let's all keep posting with our experience, knowledge, opinions etc, and continue to discuss, rather than taking things personally. 

 

Thailand is an unstable country.  Anything can happen at any time, even a military coup.  The way it is today may not be the way it is tomorrow here.

 

What surprises me is when there is any change, it's shoot the messenger, call it scaremongering,  report the post and get it deleted, rather than consider the change may actually be happening, and discuss it and deal with it. 

 

I remember one member arguing that cannabis would NEVER be legalized in Thailand, even after it was legalized.  Go figure. 

 

 

Edited September 18 by KhunHeineken

[chiang mai]

2 hours ago, Lorry said:

I beg to differ. 

So don't talk about "ANYONE", talk about yourself.

 

 I still remember the time when you, too,  Mr Heineken, posted useful things. 

That's why I still read your posts.  But lately, I found them not very interesting, one reason is I am not from Australia.

 

I would very much prefer a thread for each nationality. 

I don't know what is a superannuated IRA (401) for non-doms, neither do I want to know.

The thread has become irrelevant, just a talking shop for some bored and lonely chums to chat about their pet hobby. There's no new or practical information that's useful or relevant, just a recycling or rehash of the same old material, issues and arguments, no surprise then that so many older posters have left. It's like, the party's over, it was time to go  home hours ago but the message hasn't sunk in. 

 

I'll check back in a couple of months.

[KhunHeineken]

2 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

The thread has become irrelevant, just a talking shop for some bored and lonely chums to chat about their pet hobby. There's no new or practical information that's useful or relevant, just a recycling or rehash of the same old material, issues and arguments, no surprise then that so many older posters have left. It's like, the party's over, it was time to go  home hours ago but the message hasn't sunk in. 

 

I'll check back in a couple of months.

The issue is now at a point that we are either waiting for another government announcement, or, the 1st January 2025 to arrive.  

 

Opinions, views, speculation, predictions, facts, quotes, links, laws, youtube etc etc have all been posted. 

 

It's now in a holding a pattern.

 

Time will tell. 

 

 

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, KhunHeineken said:

The issue is now at a point that we are either waiting for another government announcement, or, the 1st January 2025 to arrive.  

 

Opinions, views, speculation, predictions, facts, quotes, links, laws, youtube etc etc have all been posted. 

 

It's now in a holding a pattern.

 

Time will tell. 

 

 

You've been at that point for several months yet still manage to to keep talking about nothing and posting even greater numbers of irrelevant unnecessary posts. The smart guys took a holiday and found something useful to do, I'm going to join them. Bye.

[KhunHeineken]

2 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

You've been at that point for several months yet still manage to to keep talking about nothing and posting even greater numbers of irrelevant unnecessary posts. The smart guys took a holiday and found something useful to do, I'm going to join them. Bye.

You are 3rd Place on the posters list for this thread. 

 

You have posted 136 posts on this thread.  Enjoy your holiday, I'm sure the rest of us will enjoy your holiday from the thread as well. 

[jwest10]

Yes, I have asked before and gone around to my local tax office several times and also the very many so-called experts and it seems no one knows what is happening and are these 2024 forms (if any) and some posts mentioning can use the pink Id card which has the same number of digits.

I have been on the IRS sites and it seems very complicated but can anyone confirm, as it seems no one at all knows'
If there are any forms where will they be available but we have no choice and wait and see.
Thoughts, please and thank you

 

[jwest10]

56 minutes ago, jwest10 said:

Yes, I have asked before and gone around to my local tax office several times and also the very many so-called experts and it seems no one knows what is happening and are these 2024 forms (if any) and some posts mentioning can use the pink Id card which has the same number of digits.

I have been on the IRS sites and it seems very complicated but can anyone confirm, as it seems no one at all knows'
If there are any forms where will they be available but we have no choice and wait and see.
Thoughts, please and thank you

 

Seen sone posters thinking the forms for 2024 may??? be printed ens of Oct/Nov and where exactly do we get the m form but we have no choice but to wait and only transmitted funds for this year, correct?