Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part II

[stat]

5 hours ago, topt said:

Not to any country correct - but to countries signed up which now includes Thailand incorrect.

 

This is old, from 2014 OECD archive, but struggling to find something more recent -

https://web-archive.oecd.org/2016-01-27/238340-Automatic-Exchange-Financial-Account-Information-Brief.pdf

Correct! There are not many countries left where you would like to bank that have not signed up to CRS.

[stat]

13 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

You would only commit tax evasion if you had taxable income that you failed to declare, not filing a return is not necessarily Tax  Evasion & (I believe) carries a penalty of 2,000B if caught. 

I simply assume that if you get an OA visa you need to show 20K EUR and you get interest on this amount. I also assume (apparently wrongly) that as a westener you manage to get 150K baht (3500 USD) in interest, pensions or capital gains per year as a given. (German pensions and a lot of other pensions ought to be taxed in TH in case you wonder) Even if you "manage" to get below 3.5K USD per year in income then it is still open for debate if you nevertheless are obliged to hand in a tax declaration even with zero income (as a foreigner). Why would you tell your bank a wrong adress if you would fall below the threshold of 3.5K usd anyway? The case you are mentioning below 3K yearly income is very rare IMHO.

[Yumthai]

1 hour ago, stat said:

You need to tell the bank where you are resident that is how CRS knows where to send the data to. Telling the bank an incorrect adress is not a good idea and could be tax evasion and will easily be spotted.

You can have offshore accounts registered with a legit offshore address at the time you opened it. Not updating a bank account address is not illegal nor tax evasion. If banks ask you can just ignore it. At some point they may threat to close your account and eventually close it, this is the worst thing that can happen.

[stat]

2 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

You can have offshore accounts registered with a legit offshore address at the time you opened it. Not updating a bank account address is not illegal nor tax evasion. If banks ask you can just ignore it. At some point they may threat to close your account and eventually close it, this is the worst thing that can happen.

You have a legal obligation to update your bank data.

[Yumthai]

1 minute ago, stat said:

You have a legal obligation to update your bank data.

Source? What is the penalty for not doing so?

[stat]

1 minute ago, Yumthai said:

Source? What is the penalty for not doing so?

Just check the smallprint with the bank you are banking with or call them. Maybe you trust google more then an industry professional in banking like myself, then just google yourself please.

 

https://onfido.com/blog/why-is-kyc-required-in-banks/

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_your_customer

 

 

 

 

[Yumthai]

1 minute ago, stat said:

Just check the smallprint with the bank you are banking with or call them. Maybe you trust google more then an industry professional in banking like myself, then just google yourself please.

 

https://onfido.com/blog/why-is-kyc-required-in-banks/

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_your_customer

This is legal requirements for financial institutions not customers of the FI.

Customers have to follow FI policy/terms and conditions. If they don't, penalty may be account closure. No more no less.

[Celsius]

2 hours ago, stat said:

How can you judge if you do not speak German?

 

I watched the video and read the comments. Even the German  comments in the video are saying he is way off the mark.

 

 

[stat]

1 hour ago, Celsius said:

 

I watched the video and read the comments. Even the German  comments in the video are saying he is way off the mark.

 

 

Yeah all is golden... lost for words...

[stat]

1 hour ago, Yumthai said:

This is legal requirements for financial institutions not customers of the FI.

Customers have to follow FI policy/terms and conditions. If they don't, penalty may be account closure. No more no less.

"For the purposes of the CRS, the Account Holder (or Controlling Person) must disclose all its tax residences in the required self-certification."

 

https://www.oecd.org/tax/automatic-exchange/crs-implementation-and-assistance/tax-residency/

 

No one stops you from going rogue. Enjoy the ride!

[stat]

1 hour ago, Celsius said:

 

I watched the video and read the comments. Even the German  comments in the video are saying he is way off the mark.

 

 

He is basically saying that there is the strong likelihood that your visa renewal will be linked to you handing in a tax declaration. How can that be off the mark? It is for you to understand that the likelyhood exists. He is by no means saying it will be 100% implemented. After all this is Thailand, just remember the 300 Baht tourist tax.

 

Plan accordingly, if you do not care be my guest. I saw a great many "desperados" go down in flames who did not care and plan.

 

Over and out on this topic from my side.

[Celsius]

3 minutes ago, stat said:

Plan accordingly, if you do not care be my guest. I saw a great many "desperados" go down in flames who did not care and plan.

 

Over and out on this topic from my side.

 

I will not go down in flames. My wife actually works, she puts me on her tax and receives a tax refund as her dependant. I will gladly show the immigration the tax she pays every year supporting me.

 

As for me, I will not pay then 1 baht.

[stat]

23 minutes ago, Celsius said:

 

I will not go down in flames. My wife actually works, she puts me on her tax and receives a tax refund as her dependant. I will gladly show the immigration the tax she pays every year supporting me.

 

As for me, I will not pay then 1 baht.

You have a thai wife and "plan" for a thai tax evasion which could lead to you going to jail and or getting banned from entering Thailand not to mention the fine and taxes you have to pay? You even announce your plan on the internet, smart move I am impressed.

[Presnock]

8 hours ago, stat said:

You need to tell the bank where you are resident that is how CRS knows where to send the data to. Telling the bank an incorrect adress is not a good idea and could be tax evasion and will easily be spotted.
crs_-_faq.pdfcrs_-_faq.pdfcrs_-_faq.pdfcrs_-_faq.pdf

crs_-_faq.pdf 319.88 kB · 2 downloads CRS faq OECD.pdf 895.25 kB · 0 downloads

Yes, when BOA cancelled my account of 50 years as I had no US residence, I was able to open an account but I used my Thai address so am sure they will be exchanging data under the CRS or whatever but I have no problems with that yet... have and LTR and US DTA to help protect my money as I pay my US taxes regularly.  Good Luck

[Mike Teavee]

9 hours ago, stat said:

I simply assume that if you get an OA visa you need to show 20K EUR and you get interest on this amount. I also assume (apparently wrongly) that as a westener you manage to get 150K baht (3500 USD) in interest, pensions or capital gains per year as a given. (German pensions and a lot of other pensions ought to be taxed in TH in case you wonder) Even if you "manage" to get below 3.5K USD per year in income then it is still open for debate if you nevertheless are obliged to hand in a tax declaration even with zero income (as a foreigner). Why would you tell your bank a wrong adress if you would fall below the threshold of 3.5K usd anyway? The case you are mentioning below 3K yearly income is very rare IMHO.

Sorry I don't know if you replied to the wrong post but my point was that you are not necessarily committing Tax Evasion just because you don't file a return. 

 

E.g. I'm not filing a Tax Return as I am only remitting 235K which is covered by my 60K personal allowance + 25K for Health Insurance + 150k at zero rate tax so I have no tax to pay.  I should file a tax return but am not planning to do so... Not committing Tax Evasion but I could be liable for a 2,000 THB fine for not filing a return - Which they can take it out of the > 5K in withheld interest from my Thai Bank account if they make me file a tax return.   

 

Has nothing to do with how much you income you have, it's all about how much assessable income you remit. E.g. A US guy living on a $5,000 pm military pension could remit all of this (> 2Million THB pa) with no tax need to even file as they are not remitting any assessable income.

 

[Celsius]

7 hours ago, stat said:

You have a thai wife and "plan" for a thai tax evasion which could lead to you going to jail and or getting banned from entering Thailand not to mention the fine and taxes you have to pay? You even announce your plan on the internet, smart move I am impressed.

 

Banned from entering Thailand is fine with me. I don't plan to stay here in the old age and slum it with annual extensions and 90 day reports while having to file let alone pay taxes.

 

Only an idiot would do that.

[Yumthai]

9 hours ago, stat said:

"For the purposes of the CRS, the Account Holder (or Controlling Person) must disclose all its tax residences in the required self-certification."

 

https://www.oecd.org/tax/automatic-exchange/crs-implementation-and-assistance/tax-residency/

 

No one stops you from going rogue. Enjoy the ride!

 

The OECD Guidelines for Multinational Enterprises on Responsible Business Conduct are recommendations addressed by governments to multinational enterprises.

OECD rules do not mention legal obligations for individuals.

 

Self-certification is for account opening, not updating. Again, what penalty does the account holder face? Legal risks may exist for financial institutions for not gathering correct information from their customers.

 

Can you bring a Law article (any country) stating that bank customers (individuals) face tax evasion or legal fines/jail terms because they didn't update their bank information personal address?

 

[Mason45]

1 hour ago, Celsius said:

 

Banned from entering Thailand is fine with me. I don't plan to stay here in the old age and slum it with annual extensions and 90 day reports while having to file let alone pay taxes.

 

Only an idiot would do that.

After living in Thailand for the past 22 years I'm prepared to sit on the fence on these taxation issues. It maybe another brain fart and when the feasibility is studied closely it will just quietly die away without any official notification as other lame brain ideas have been mentioned.

[OJAS]

On 6/8/2024 at 5:50 PM, roobaa01 said:

Gday 

Another horror news about Thai taxation . As from the 1.1.2025 anyone having stayed in Thailand for 180 days , would be requested to present a Thai tax no-nif or Thai income tax certificate applying for extension of stay retirement/marriage. Source : mario swiss blogger on YouTube claimed to have been advised by his lawyers. His lawyers were advised by Thai immigration.

 

Wbr

Roobaa01

 

Kindly post a link to what Mario The "Wondrous" Swiss Blogger has actually said on YouTube, so as to enable us, if we wish, to judge for ourselves his utterances on this point.

[Mike Teavee]

23 minutes ago, OJAS said:

 

Kindly post a link to what Mario The "Wondrous" Swiss Blogger has actually said on YouTube, so as to enable us, if we wish, to judge for ourselves his utterances on this point.

https://www.youtube.com/@mariointhailand2705 (Seems to be in German)

[Celsius]

16 hours ago, stat said:

You have a thai wife and "plan" for a thai tax evasion which could lead to you going to jail and or getting banned from entering Thailand not to mention the fine and taxes you have to pay? You even announce your plan on the internet, smart move I am impressed.

 

You are so funny.

 

Please do tell how do I plan to evade taxes?

 

Last I remember under my visa and extension of stay conditions it explicitly says I am not allowed to work in Thailand. 

 

Why should I get a tax number if I am not allowed to work in Thailand? I am following the Thai law to a T.

 

The only ones dishing stupid advice on these forums are people like you. 

 

Advising people on long term visa where explicitly says you are not allowed to work to get a tax number.

 

I hope no one listens to your dumb advice.

[stat]

10 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

Sorry I don't know if you replied to the wrong post but my point was that you are not necessarily committing Tax Evasion just because you don't file a return. 

 

E.g. I'm not filing a Tax Return as I am only remitting 235K which is covered by my 60K personal allowance + 25K for Health Insurance + 150k at zero rate tax so I have no tax to pay.  I should file a tax return but am not planning to do so... Not committing Tax Evasion but I could be liable for a 2,000 THB fine for not filing a return - Which they can take it out of the > 5K in withheld interest from my Thai Bank account if they make me file a tax return.   

 

Has nothing to do with how much you income you have, it's all about how much assessable income you remit. E.g. A US guy living on a $5,000 pm military pension could remit all of this (> 2Million THB pa) with no tax need to even file as they are not remitting any assessable income.

 

 

You are aware that they plan to tax your ww income in 2025? That is what is was refering to. In 2024 yes you are fine apparently, if you do not remit and/or receive gifts.

[stat]

8 hours ago, Yumthai said:

 

The OECD Guidelines for Multinational Enterprises on Responsible Business Conduct are recommendations addressed by governments to multinational enterprises.

OECD rules do not mention legal obligations for individuals.

 

Self-certification is for account opening, not updating. Again, what penalty does the account holder face? Legal risks may exist for financial institutions for not gathering correct information from their customers.

 

Can you bring a Law article (any country) stating that bank customers (individuals) face tax evasion or legal fines/jail terms because they didn't update their bank information personal address?

 

There is an entire section in my link of how each country has imposed the recommendation of the OECD in law. Pls consult your lawyer or bank if you do not trust my judgement as a project leader on KYC projects for numerous bank. If you make a correct tax declaration in your countries of residence there is no tax evasion agreed despite entering a wrong adress. Just ask your bank if you can provide to them a wrong tax jurisdiction and post the answer here please.

[Mike Teavee]

7 minutes ago, stat said:

 

You are aware that they plan to tax your ww income in 2025? That is what is was refering to. In 2024 yes you are fine apparently, if you do not remit and/or receive gifts.

I am aware but that doesn't change the fact that if you have no tax to pay then you are not evading Tax by not filing a return & can only be penalised 2,000B for not filing the return. 

 

 

E.g. if you only had 210K of assessable income with the rest of your income covered by a DTA there would definitely be no tax to pay BUT you should file a return as you'd be over the 120K THB foreign income limit

 

[stat]

2 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

I am aware but that doesn't change the fact that if you have no tax to pay then you are not evading Tax by not filing a return & can only be penalised 2,000B for not filing the return. 

 

 

E.g. if you only had 210K of assessable income with the rest of your income covered by a DTA there would definitely be no tax to pay BUT you should file a return as you'd be over the 120K THB foreign income limit

 

Why you would you bother to keep a wrong tax residence if you would not end up paying taxes in the end anyway? There are some exceptions to this I can think of but they would be very rare IMHO.

[Yumthai]

59 minutes ago, stat said:

There is an entire section in my link of how each country has imposed the recommendation of the OECD in law. Pls consult your lawyer or bank if you do not trust my judgement as a project leader on KYC projects for numerous bank. If you make a correct tax declaration in your countries of residence there is no tax evasion agreed despite entering a wrong adress. Just ask your bank if you can provide to them a wrong tax jurisdiction and post the answer here please.

Please quote the (country) Law and penalties on individuals who do not update their bank details.

Policy is not Law.

[jwest10]

On 6/2/2024 at 9:01 PM, ConcernedBrit said:

I've been following this thread and I just signed up (more on me and my/our situation below, if anybody cares) to question a couple of points in the quote above:

 

1. "Previously, remitted savings were never taxable, exempt income was never taxable and income covered by a  DTA, was not taxable in Thailand....those things haven't changed."

Ok, definitions required here I think. When does income become savings?

To me (gifts aside) savings come from excess income - so any income that is not required to cover bills in the period it is earned (say, monthly, if paid on a monthly basis) would become savings. Or perhaps annnually, when a tax return is submitted. In that sense, the previous Thai rule worked.

 

Taken at face value, the Thai tax people's new definition would mean that essentially any funds that existed prior to Jan 1 2024 would be treated as savings and all else would be income. That would be quite bizarre. Effectively you'd get a free pass on anything that existed across all your bank and investment balances prior to 1/1/24 but perhaps only as long as you could prove it.

 

2. "Previously, foreign tax residents with no assessable income in Thailand, are not required to file a Thai tax return."

Well, the problem there is knowing for sure what is assessable. And keeping evidence to prove that what is remitted is not "assessable" or is within allowances. Ugh.

Tax authorities often try to create uncertainty and hope that people will cough up cash to sleep at night (e.g. IR35 legislation in the UK). For that, folks would "over declare" rather than under-do it and perhaps just pay whatever is assessed for an easy life (that is what they hope, I'm not saying it's right).

 

Overall key point

Money is a fungible resource. For example, if you were to tell me that you can't pay your energy bill this month and you need £1... so I lend it to you and then tomorrow I see you eating an ice cream that costs £1, then I might be tempted to say "Hey! How can you be eating that when you needed my £1 for energy?". You might say that you didn't buy it with my £1 but with one of your own £s, but that doesn't hold water - since money is fungible i.e. I can't tell which exact £1 you used, all that matters is the overall picture which is that my £1 created an excess of funds allowing you to buy that ice cream. So I'm entitled to be a little miffed.

 

Silly example, but it makes the point - the exact £s or $s that come into the country don't matter, it's the overall picture as at 1/1/24 that matters. If you had £1million in savings at that point then you will have £1million of tax free remittables from now onwards. Or - a new arrival will have whatever they had prior to becoming resident in Thailand (as long as they can prove it). What this adds up to is that if you are still working then everything from then on will be treated as income, therefore assessable.

 

My/our situation

My wife and I were thinking of moving to Thailand. She recently went there and loved it. We've become increasingly concerned over the migrant situation in the UK and wanted to get out while we still could, before Sharia law is imposed within our lifetimes.

 

However, this Thai tax situation has made us think twice. It's not the individual issue, it's the realisation that we would be at the behest of every daft thing any government present or future could decide to throw at us (including the series of daft governments we've had in the UK for the last 30 years or so). And going back to the UK would be very difficult later in life, if it were even desirable at all. So in the end, we will probably find a remote place in the UK that will hopefully be safe in our lifetimes.

Good luck with that and many of us have absolutely nothing in Blighty but have wonderful Thai families but the Authorities certainly do not take this in account!!

 

[stat]

2 hours ago, Yumthai said:

Please quote the (country) Law and penalties on individuals who do not update their bank details.

Policy is not Law.

https://kanzlei-herfurtner.de/falsche-adresse-bei-bank/

 

Up to 5 years in prison as the max penalty in Germany

 

USA:

Whoever, for the purpose of influencing in any way the action of the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation, knowingly makes or invites reliance on a false, forged, or counterfeit statement, document, or thing shall be fined not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 30 years, or both.

 

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1007

 

But that is not all as it is also quite likely a tax evasion offense.

 

I am fed up answering questions of yours while you are simply too lazy to google for yourself. I presume you do not have any background in finance or banking otherwise you would not ask such questions again and again.

 

 

[stat]

3 hours ago, Yumthai said:

Please quote the (country) Law and penalties on individuals who do not update their bank details.

Policy is not Law.

I am looking forward to your posting showing the answer from your bank.

[Yumthai]

10 hours ago, stat said:

https://kanzlei-herfurtner.de/falsche-adresse-bei-bank/

 

Up to 5 years in prison as the max penalty in Germany

 

USA:

Whoever, for the purpose of influencing in any way the action of the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation, knowingly makes or invites reliance on a false, forged, or counterfeit statement, document, or thing shall be fined not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 30 years, or both.

 

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1007

 

But that is not all as it is also quite likely a tax evasion offense.

 

I am fed up answering questions of yours while you are simply too lazy to google for yourself. I presume you do not have any background in finance or banking otherwise you would not ask such questions again and again.

 

From what I read from the English translation of the the German link you post, individuals face legal consequences if they provide a false address with the intention of deceiving the bank and if they submit or prepare falsified documents in connection with the address specification.

Not if you did not update details after moving.

 

What happens if I move, but do not inform my bank about my new address?

If you move and do not inform your bank of your new address, you risk not receiving important notifications and information from the bank. This can lead to an incorrect assessment of your financial situation and possibly losses. In addition, the missing / incorrect information may have a negative impact on regulatory audits or when evaluating your creditworthiness.

 

Same for US and I assume any country, you face legal consequences if you intentionally make a false statement/doc.

 

However if you open an account in a country you were resident then move later without notifying the bank, it's not a crime.

That was my point.

 

I guess most of foreigners residing in Thailand keep offshore/home country bank accounts with local address as I do, not intentionally but per convenience, are they all criminals?

 

Working in bank does not make you a lawyer either.