Ukraine ... Enlighten yourself

[RayC]

18 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

The underlined texts in my post are links to the source.  Been here 5+ years, and haven't figured that out yet.

 

You're right: I hadn't figured that out. I assumed that the underlined text was for emphasis not a link.

 

Most other posters use a descriptive link. Maybe you try doing so in order to avoid ambiguity and confusion.

[Inderpland]

5 minutes ago, johng said:

So has the US,UK,Israel,North Korea,China  etc etc etc  its supposed to be a deterrent  MAD  ( Russia has the most BTW)

don't mess with me and I won't mess with you (or else) except certain participants seen to have forgotten that principle  thinking that one side is just "bluffing"  

 

It is not about "resisting" its about negotiation.

Negotiating what - how much territory Ukraine should cede to Russia as a reward for their invasion?

[Inderpland]

6 minutes ago, johng said:

 

He has a large family   some of them disagree with his policies

do all of your family agree with everything you believe in ?

One thing we all agree on is that Trump is the worst candidate for president in history. He even beats himself in 2016 and 2020!

[johng]

3 minutes ago, Inderpland said:

One thing we all agree on is that Trump is the worst

All in your family ?   agree that Trump is the worst

[Inderpland]

Just now, johng said:

All in your family ?   agree that Trump is the worst

Yes, that's what I said. Well done, your understanding of the English language is quite impressive.

[johng]

10 minutes ago, Inderpland said:

Negotiating what - how much territory Ukraine should cede to Russia as a reward for their invasion?

Yes that is what you do when you loose a war/negotiation unless you want to be totally annihilated.  Remember Russia already controls about 20 percent of former "Ukraine" territory  they could continue and take more  or.... negotiate.

[johng]

6 minutes ago, Inderpland said:

your understanding of the English language is quite impressive.

Well not really as I am English.

[RayC]

46 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

 

Lol, they're from a website that details in exruciating details the promises by the West not to expand NATO to the East.

 

They prove in detail how Russia was lied to and misled.

 

Absolutely disgusting to claim clear evidence like the one KhunLa provided proves nothing, when it proves things beyond the measure of a doubt.

 

 

 

It is indeed a long and interesting piece, but it does not - as you claim - prove "beyond the (sic) measure of a doubt" that promises were made that NATO would NEVER expand eastwards, and there is no formal agreement to this effect in any of the accords.

 

In any event, imo the NATO element is nothing but a smokescreen for the 'raison d'être' for Putin's actions. Firstly, Putin has always believed that Ukraine should form part of a Greater Russia. Secondly, Putin has always been opposed to Ukraine joining the EU. He warned Ukraine against doing so, and backed up these warnings with sanctions e.g. banning exports of certain goods to Ukraine. Putin's fear - probably justified - was that Ukraine's accession to the EU would negatively affect the Russian economy, and that it may cause the Russian public to look on enviously at their Ukrainian neighbours, thus possibly undermining his authority. Neither event could be allowed to happen and we are where we are.

[SingAPorn]

Forgotten of Zelinski's name in the Pandora Paper offshore capital and tax evasion scandals ?

 

Forgotten about the hundreds of millions of dollars allegedly embezzled by top brass of Kiev as reported by the pulitzer american journalist ? He also reported how the USA blocked peace talks that Ukraine wanted to carry with Russia.

 

So please, stop the propaganda. In this war there are innocent victims on all sides and on the other side, plainly a bunch of corrupt politicians and/or arms lobbyists in the European Union, in Russia, in the US and Ukraine who are all making money or gaining influence, "thanks" to the war.

 

But what is happening is that the people all over Europe suffering from the absurd US sanctions, are all voting far right now to stop this joke.

 

If you want ot maintain sanctions against Russia fine. But before, stop pretending to ignore the war crimes in Gaza, in the West Bank and now in Lebanon, with US backed military and geopolitical support. A shame to the UN and to America.

[VBer]

29 minutes ago, Inderpland said:

Negotiating what - how much territory Ukraine should cede to Russia as a reward for their invasion?

Negotiating this in December 2021

https://www.reuters.com/world/russia-unveils-security-guarantees-says-western-response-not-encouraging-2021-12-17/

It was completely ignored by NATO

[Inderpland]

21 minutes ago, johng said:

Yes that is what you do when you loose a war/negotiation unless you want to be totally annihilated.  Remember Russia already controls about 20 percent of former "Ukraine" territory  they could continue and take more  or.... negotiate.

Wow.

[riclag]

7 minutes ago, SingAPorn said:

Forgotten of Zelinski's name in the Pandora Paper offshore capital and tax evasion scandals ?

 

Forgotten about the hundreds of millions of dollars allegedly embezzled by top brass of Kiev as reported by the pulitzer american journalist ? He also reported how the USA blocked peace talks that Ukraine wanted to carry with Russia.

 

So please, stop the propaganda. In this war there are innocent victims on all sides and on the other side, plainly a bunch of corrupt politicians and/or arms lobbyists in the European Union, in Russia, in the US and Ukraine who are all making money or gaining influence, "thanks" to the war.

 

But what is happening is that the people all over Europe suffering from the absurd US sanctions, are all voting far right now to stop this joke.

 

If you want ot maintain sanctions against Russia fine. But before, stop pretending to ignore the war crimes in Gaza, in the West Bank and now in Lebanon, with US backed military and geopolitical support. A shame to the UN and to America.

 Chaos ! This can be contributed to the art of appeasement, by a weak ineffective administration currently in office in the USA!

 

[Cameroni]

25 minutes ago, RayC said:

 

It is indeed a long and interesting piece, but it does not - as you claim - prove "beyond the (sic) measure of a doubt" that promises were made that NATO would NEVER expand eastwards, and there is no formal agreement to this effect in any of the accords.

 

In any event, imo the NATO element is nothing but a smokescreen for the 'raison d'être' for Putin's actions. Firstly, Putin has always believed that Ukraine should form part of a Greater Russia. Secondly, Putin has always been opposed to Ukraine joining the EU. He warned Ukraine against doing so, and backed up these warnings with sanctions e.g. banning exports of certain goods to Ukraine. Putin's fear - probably justified - was that Ukraine's accession to the EU would negatively affect the Russian economy, and that it may cause the Russian public to look on enviously at their Ukrainian neighbours, thus possibly undermining his authority. Neither event could be allowed to happen and we are where we are.

 

The Greater Russia stuff is nonsense on stilts, but there is some truth to the fact that Russia could never accept a pro Western Ukraine. That's kind of the whole problem.

[Middle Aged Grouch]

Ukraine just the  war (crimes) led by Israel (and America)  are a salvation to their respective leaders. As both the israeli and the ukrainian,.  were due to show up in court on various charges of corruption and political wrongdoing before the war started.

 

 

[RayC]

2 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

 

The Greater Russia stuff is nonsense on stilts, but there is some truth to the fact that Russia could never accept a pro Western Ukraine. That's kind of the whole problem.

 

The Greater Russia stuff comes straight from the horse's mouth

 

http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/66181

 

Ukraine became a sovereign country in 1991. Sovereign countries should be free to take their own decisions. It really is as simple as that.

[johng]

20 minutes ago, Inderpland said:

Wow.

You are surprised at this revelation ?

typically the losing party agrees to negotiated terms and the victor sets the terms.

[Inderpland]

42 minutes ago, johng said:

Well not really as I am English.

OTOH, you irony sensor needs a tune-up.

[Inderpland]

2 minutes ago, johng said:

You are surprised at this revelation ?

typically the losing party agrees to negotiated terms and the victor sets the terms.

There is one major flaw in your argument - Russia hasn't won. If you don't believe me, ask Putin.

[johng]

3 minutes ago, Inderpland said:

- Russia hasn't won.

Ok get back to me when Ukraine declares victory...and /or NATO membership.

[Inderpland]

Just now, johng said:

Ok get back to me when Ukraine declares victory...and /or NATO membership.

Why?

[Hellfire]

What a bunch of BS... Right from the beginning 0:57... So, according to this illiterate clown, Gorbachev in 1992 went to George Bush and...Tony Blair. Anybody with just a little bit of self-respect will stop listening after this point. First, by 1992 Gorbachev was not in power anymore. And second, Tony Blair was elected as a PM in 1997 !!!

 

 

Edited October 1 by Hellfire

[johng]

6 minutes ago, Inderpland said:

OTOH, you irony sensor needs a tune-up.

Yes I detected no irony so will of course get to polishing the

"sensor" forthwith.

[johng]

5 minutes ago, Inderpland said:

Why?

Because Ukraine would be victorious over the evil Hitler Putin orks .

[Inderpland]

15 minutes ago, johng said:

Because Ukraine would be victorious over the evil Hitler Putin orks .

Yes, one glorious day Putin will die. The sooner the better.

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, Inderpland said:

Yes, one glorious day Putin will die. The sooner the better.

There are many windows in Moscow.

[Danderman123]

8 hours ago, Hummin said:

The truth can be right and wrong, just depending on what we want the end result going to be. As said, we do not want Putin and Russia to become stronger, to quick, but eventually China, Russia and Allies, will win the war on available resources. 

 

So? What do you want? Hoping Musk solve the Mars colonization? 

The Ukrainian war is a war of attrition, with Russia, North Korea and Iran supplying one side, and Ukraine, Europe, Canada and America supplying the other. When one side cannot supply itself, the war is over.

 

Which side will run out first?

[Danderman123]

53 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

 

The Greater Russia stuff is nonsense on stilts, but there is some truth to the fact that Russia could never accept a pro Western Ukraine. That's kind of the whole problem.

That's Russia's problem.

[Cameroni]

6 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

That's Russia's problem.

 

Well, it's kind of Ukraine's problem now.

[Jingthing]

11 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

The Ukrainian war is a war of attrition, with Russia, North Korea and Iran supplying one side, and Ukraine, Europe, Canada and America supplying the other. When one side cannot supply itself, the war is over.

 

Which side will run out first?

That's a big part of it and Ukraine is more vulnerable because of much lower population and the threat of Putin sympathetic fascists taking power in the U.S., France, and Germany. However, there is more to it than that and that is the internal situation in Russia. Interest rates pushing 20 percent, massive inflation on many products including food, budgets spending absurd amounts on the war and cutting everything else, failure to maintain basic infrastructure such as elevators, continued dramatic success of Ukraine to hit strategic targets in Russia even while being irrationally restrained by the west. For cultural reasons, it's not reasonable to expect masses of regular Russian people to storm the Kremlin. HOWEVER, with each passing day as the war hits home in Russia more and more the chances of some kind of internal coup against Putin from insider oligarchs increases. Also such events as Ukraine finally destroying the Kerch bridge will add to the morale pressure for such a result. A new government won't be a liberal democracy, but it could potentially mean giving up the war and having Putin to blame, because they definitely need a target to blame. Not making specific predictions but a Ukraine win does not need to be a purely military one as that is indeed highly unlikely. 

Edited October 1 by Jingthing

[Cameroni]

7 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

continues success of Ukraine to hit strategic targets in Russia even while being irrationally restrained by the west.

 

The restraint from the West in allowing missile strikes in Russia, is about the most rational thing the West has come up with. You should be extremely grateful that Western leaders are not so fried in the brain that they want a hot war with Russia.

 

Your dreaming of Putin being dislodged is Disney worthy. Like when Hitler was fantasizing about the Allies falling out. It's not going to happen.

 

The Russians love Putin. The economy is doing very well.

Edited October 1 by Cameroni