Yahya Sinwar’s Gambit: A Failed Attempt to Reshape the Middle East

[Nick Carter icp]

1 hour ago, HK MacPhooey said:

A Trump Whitehouse would have prevented all this and more in Afghanistan and Ukraine etc

 

   Could you please leave Trump out of this and don't yet again turn the thread  into a Trump/Biden squabble 

[placeholder]

11 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   I did eventually reply to the content of the article asking you to back up the claims and you now seem to be ignoring that post .

   When did Saudi Arabia make those alleged new demands ?

   Saudi have always favoured a two state solution and its not a new requirement , your article is wrong about the claims that its a new demand from Saudi , as it has ALWAYS been the Saudi position 

 

https://m.jpost.com/israel-news/article-760980

https://www.timesofisrael.com/saudis-putting-aside-arab-peace-initiative-amid-israel-normalization-talks-officials/

 

https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/09/1141302

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/us-saudi-defence-pact-tied-israel-deal-palestinian-demands-put-aside-2023-09-29/

[Nick Carter icp]

Just now, placeholder said:

 

https://m.jpost.com/israel-news/article-760980

https://www.timesofisrael.com/saudis-putting-aside-arab-peace-initiative-amid-israel-normalization-talks-officials/

 

https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/09/1141302

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/us-saudi-defence-pact-tied-israel-deal-palestinian-demands-put-aside-2023-09-29/

 

   Stop being lazy and stop just firing links .

Write your own words and use links to back up your claims .

   I cannot just keep replying to your links .

Write something yourself and then I can reply to you 

[Nick Carter icp]

11 minutes ago, placeholder said:

 

https://m.jpost.com/israel-news/article-760980

https://www.timesofisrael.com/saudis-putting-aside-arab-peace-initiative-amid-israel-normalization-talks-officials/

 

https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/09/1141302

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/us-saudi-defence-pact-tied-israel-deal-palestinian-demands-put-aside-2023-09-29/

 

https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-816309

[placeholder]

23 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   I did eventually reply to the content of the article asking you to back up the claims and you now seem to be ignoring that post .

   When did Saudi Arabia make those alleged new demands ?

   Saudi have always favoured a two state solution and its not a new requirement , your article is wrong about the claims that its a new demand from Saudi , as it has ALWAYS been the Saudi position 

You said my claim was false. Here are your own words:

"When did Saudi Arabia make those alleged new demands ?"

   Saudi have always favoured a two state solution and its not a new requirement , your article is wrong about the claims that its a new demand from Saudi , as it has ALWAYS been the Saudi position."

I provided evidence. You say you'll take my word for it rather than from an independent source? I guess I should be flattered by such foolishness. You've been well and truly caught out. But instead of acknowledging the evidence from independent sources you take refuge in some lame claim that you prefer an anonymous member's word to  sources such as the Jerusalem Post and the Israel Times.

Have you been hiding in the tunnel these past few years? These negotiations were all over the news. How could you have missed reports about  protests by Palestinians about having their rights ignored the negotiations during these negotiations?

[Bkk Brian]

1 hour ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   When did MbS  state that ?

Its been the position for many years, well before Sinwar's orchestrated terror attack on Israel

 

For decades, the kingdom of Saudi Arabia has maintained a conditional approach to possible normalization with Israel, based on Saudi support for the advancement of Palestinian interests and the establishment of a Palestinian state. 

 

PDF download

https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/R/R48162

[placeholder]

2 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-816309

Time marches on. Compare the dates of that report to the dates of mine

[Bkk Brian]

2 hours ago, Neeranam said:

In my opinion, Sinwar's actions were deeply rooted in the broader context of Palestinian resistance, not solely in a desire to provoke a regional conflict aimed at Israel's destruction. His actions reflected the frustrations and aspirations of many Palestinians who seek self-determination and an end to occupation.  

Characterizing Sinwar's actions solely as cowardice overlooks the complex realities faced by leaders in conflict zones, where decisions are often influenced by the dire circumstances of their communities.

No he was a coward, through and through, how can you stick up for such an evil demented being..

 

I wonder whether, on this rare —  maybe sole — visit up from the tunnels, Sinwar for a moment recognized what destruction he had brought. 

Not just on the people of Israel — he was proud of that. But on the Palestinians of Gaza. As he was bleeding out, did he spend any of his final moments wondering — isolated, abandoned and defeated — whether this had been such a great idea? This whole, bloody, unnecessary war that he started?
The chair that he sat dying in was there in the room and I took a seat, noting the blood stains on the side.

There is no remorse to be had for this monster. For he had no remorse for anyone else. Least of all the hostages he kidnapped, tortured and in a number of known cases (DNA evidence suggests) probably killed himself.

https://nypost.com/2024/10/20/opinion/inside-the-utter-devastation-where-hamas-despot-yahya-sinwar-met-his-demise-in-gaza/

[placeholder]

3 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Its been the position for many years, well before Sinwar's orchestrated terror attack on Israel

 

For decades, the kingdom of Saudi Arabia has maintained a conditional approach to possible normalization with Israel, based on Saudi support for the advancement of Palestinian interests and the establishment of a Palestinian state. 

 

PDF download

https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/R/R48162

https://archive.ph/FotiX

The link above is from Haaretz. That means I've offered reports from three different Israeli media sources that are right wing, centrist, and left wing. They all agree that the Saudis were willing to abandon their insistence on the creation of a Palestinian state in order to pursue peace with Israel. Against which you offer report from the US Congress. It is to laugh.

[Bkk Brian]

7 minutes ago, placeholder said:

https://archive.ph/FotiX

The link above is from Haaretz. That means I've offered reports from three different Israeli media sources that are right wing, centrist, and left wing. They all agree that the Saudis were willing to abandon their insistence on the creation of a Palestinian state in order to pursue peace with Israel. Against which you offer report from the US Congress. It is to laugh.

Strange how a gov source did not update their link then when it was last reviewed. I couldn't care less about right left and center, I just care about facts.

[placeholder]

4 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Strange how a gov source did not update their link then when it was last reviewed. I couldn't care less about right left and center, I just care about facts.

One way excellent way of ascertaining whether something is a fact or not is if sources who usually disagree, agree about something. It's a technique used by historians.

Yet you seem don't care. Your emotional engagement is irrelevant.

 

But on the other hand lack of mention from a Congressional report strikes you being significant. Who knows what agenda the authors might have?

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, placeholder said:

One way excellent way of ascertaining whether something is a fact or not is if sources who usually disagree, agree about something. It's a technique used by historians.

Yet you seem don't care. Your emotional engagement is irrelevant.

 

But on the other hand lack of mention from a Congressional report strikes you being significant. Who knows what agenda the authors might have?

Please don't try to tell me how to fact check.........lol Why not start a topic on it?

[Nick Carter icp]

38 minutes ago, placeholder said:

You said my claim was false. Here are your own words:

"When did Saudi Arabia make those alleged new demands ?"

   Saudi have always favoured a two state solution and its not a new requirement , your article is wrong about the claims that its a new demand from Saudi , as it has ALWAYS been the Saudi position."

I provided evidence. You say you'll take my word for it rather than from an independent source? I guess I should be flattered by such foolishness. You've been well and truly caught out. But instead of acknowledging the evidence from independent sources you take refuge in some lame claim that you prefer an anonymous member's word to  sources such as the Jerusalem Post and the Israel Times.

Have you been hiding in the tunnel these past few years? These negotiations were all over the news. How could you have missed reports about  protests by Palestinians about having their rights ignored the negotiations during these negotiations?

 

   From the Saudis themselves this year "

 

 

The Ministry of Foreign Affairs stated that  position of Kingdom of Saudi Arabia has always been steadfast on the Palestinian issue and the necessity that the brotherly Palestinian people obtain their legitimate rights

 

https://www.spa.gov.sa/en/w2042969

 

 

 

[candide]

19 minutes ago, placeholder said:

https://archive.ph/FotiX

The link above is from Haaretz. That means I've offered reports from three different Israeli media sources that are right wing, centrist, and left wing. They all agree that the Saudis were willing to abandon their insistence on the creation of a Palestinian state in order to pursue peace with Israel. Against which you offer report from the US Congress. It is to laugh.

And it was likely one of the reasons for the infamous and desperate attack by Hamas. Palestinians had been sidelined and the region was heading towards peace without Palestinians.

[placeholder]

3 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   From the Saudis themselves this year "

 

 

The Ministry of Foreign Affairs stated that  position of Kingdom of Saudi Arabia has always been steadfast on the Palestinian issue and the necessity that the brotherly Palestinian people obtain their legitimate rights

 

https://www.spa.gov.sa/en/w2042969

 

 

 

And they also denied they killed khashoggi. How nice can you be? Obviously, extremely.

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, placeholder said:

And they also denied they killed khashoggi. How nice can you be? Obviously, extremely.

mmmm so nothing the Saudi's say could be trusted then?

[placeholder]

7 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Please don't try to tell me how to fact check.........lol Why not start a topic on it?

I have given you no commands. I simply  pointed out a defect in your understanding of how to ascertain whether something is valid evidence or not. You can, of course, ignore it. 

[candide]

6 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   From the Saudis themselves this year "

 

 

The Ministry of Foreign Affairs stated that  position of Kingdom of Saudi Arabia has always been steadfast on the Palestinian issue and the necessity that the brotherly Palestinian people obtain their legitimate rights

 

https://www.spa.gov.sa/en/w2042969

 

 

 

It seems there is a confusion between two aspects of this issue:

- one is a general support for Palestinians and a two-steps solution,

- the other is making it a condition for normalizing relations with Israel.

 

Obviously, it was not a condition any more for S.A., the Emirates, etc...

[placeholder]

2 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

mmmm so nothing the Saudi's say could be trusted then?

What said in confidential negotiations is clearly a different thing from spinning  or denying history. I can explain the difference to you, if you like.

[Bkk Brian]

3 minutes ago, placeholder said:

I have given you no commands. I simply  pointed out a defect in your understanding of how to ascertain whether something is valid evidence or not. You can, of course, ignore it. 

Off topic nonsense

[Bkk Brian]

2 minutes ago, placeholder said:

What said in confidential negotiations is clearly a different thing from spinning  or denying history. I can explain the difference to you, if you like.

Oh so who is spinning or denying history? Are they also doing it in confidential negotiations or not? 

[coolcarer]

4 hours ago, Neeranam said:

Never going to happen under Netanyahu, who has opposed a 2 state solution for decades. 

The closest to that was under Yitzhak Rabin, who was assassinated in 1995, which allowed the opposition(Netanyahu) to seize power. 

It would certainly never happen with Hamas in power. 

[Captain Flack]

I have removed a reported post with a link that is to another previous comment, that is not about ‘Chester Crocker’, and therefore not relevant.

 

[Nick Carter icp]

Saudi Arabia is 10 miles from Israel .

Saudi Arabia is currently building a new city that will accommodate all the Palestinian's in Gaza and the West bank .

   Coincidence ?

[Nick Carter icp]

23 hours ago, placeholder said:

https://archive.ph/FotiX

The link above is from Haaretz. That means I've offered reports from three different Israeli media sources that are right wing, centrist, and left wing. They all agree that the Saudis were willing to abandon their insistence on the creation of a Palestinian state in order to pursue peace with Israel. Against which you offer report from the US Congress. It is to laugh.

 

   Now there is a war on between Israel and Iran (Hamas/Hezbollah)  , Jews v Muslims .

   Saudis want to be seen as supporting the Muslim side of the war, rather than siding with the Jewish side . 

   Saudi and Iran also have a confrontation going on .

Saudi wouldn't want the Islamic World siding with Iran (because they are fighting Israel)and shun Saudi for supporting Israel .

   Watch what Countries do, rather than what they say .

Saudi are vociferously opposing Israel in public , yet helping Israel in the war against Iran

 

[Nick Carter icp]

On 10/21/2024 at 2:10 PM, placeholder said:

https://archive.ph/FotiX

The link above is from Haaretz. That means I've offered reports from three different Israeli media sources that are right wing, centrist, and left wing. They all agree that the Saudis were willing to abandon their insistence on the creation of a Palestinian state in order to pursue peace with Israel. Against which you offer report from the US Congress. It is to laugh.

 

   Saudi Arabia have soften their stance about a Palestinian state ,

Saudi seemed to have sided with Iran/Hamas /Hezbollah/Palestinians   recently when they got the upper hand in the war .

   Since Iran/Hamas /Hezbollah had been decimated, Saudi are back being friends again with Israel '

 

"Israel and Saudi Arabia Reach Normalization Breakthrough, Clearing Path for Hostage Deal

Netanyahu believes Saudi crown prince's limited interest in Palestinian statehood and a vague commitment to a 'path towards statehood' will secure domestic and political support for a cease-fire deal with Hamas"

 

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-12-17/ty-article/.premium/israel-and-saudi-arabia-reach-normalization-breakthrough-clearing-path-for-hostage-deal/00000193-d5aa-d8ac-ab9f-f5bf29c20000?utm_source=App_Share&utm_medium=iOS_Native

 

'

[Hawaiian]

47 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   Saudi Arabia have soften their stance about a Palestinian state ,

Saudi seemed to have sided with Iran/Hamas /Hezbollah/Palestinians   recently when they got the upper hand in the war .

   Since Iran/Hamas /Hezbollah had been decimated, Saudi are back being friends again with Israel '

 

"Israel and Saudi Arabia Reach Normalization Breakthrough, Clearing Path for Hostage Deal

Netanyahu believes Saudi crown prince's limited interest in Palestinian statehood and a vague commitment to a 'path towards statehood' will secure domestic and political support for a cease-fire deal with Hamas"

 

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-12-17/ty-article/.premium/israel-and-saudi-arabia-reach-normalization-breakthrough-clearing-path-for-hostage-deal/00000193-d5aa-d8ac-ab9f-f5bf29c20000?utm_source=App_Share&utm_medium=iOS_Native

 

'

MBS is no fool.  He wants to be on the winning side.  Now that Iran's proxies have been degraded it is only wise to either stay neutral or move towards a better relationship with Israel and its western allies.  Trump's victory has made it all the more imperative for the Saudis to take an anti-Iran stance.

The situation in Syria also bears watching as to whether Al Jolani is able to move the country on to a nonsectarian state like he promised.

Whether the Saudis continue their demand for a 2-state solution is debatable.