Thailand's Expats Urged to Register with TRD for Tax, Says Expert

[EVENKEEL]

23 hours ago, redwood1 said:

 

The vast majority of expats in Thailand from between 50 and 100 countries from all over the world have no confusion over filing limits at all...Because they will not not be filing jack EVER in the future....Problem solved....The Indians and Chinese will barter for ages in the markets  to save 5 or 10 baht...lol.....If that tells you any thing...

I don't want you feeling ignored. Your post makes the most sense. Thank you for your service.

[chiang mai]

 

3 hours ago, Neeranam said:

Voluntary start paying tax by stupidly going to the revenue dept asking for a Tax ID.

You think tax is something you pay, only when forced to do so, and then get penalised because you haven't voluntarily, I gather.....not everyone sees things the same way.

[redwood1]

4 hours ago, chiang mai said:

 

You think tax is something you pay, only when forced to do so, and then get penalised because you haven't voluntarily, I gather.....not everyone sees things the same way.

 

Thaksin Shinawatra  pretty much sees things this way regarding taxes.....Except he also skipped the force to pay part....

[Neeranam]

6 hours ago, chiang mai said:

 

You think tax is something you pay, only when forced to do so, and then get penalised because you haven't voluntarily, I gather.....not everyone sees things the same way.

Do you know there is no new law regarding foreigners paying tax on their foreign income?

[chiang mai]

1 hour ago, Neeranam said:

Do you know there is no new law regarding foreigners paying tax on their foreign income?

Yes of course, why?

[Neeranam]

On 11/7/2024 at 8:40 AM, CharlieH said:

Didnt I read somewhere it was ILLEGAL for non Thai to give Tax advice about Thai Tax ?

Giving formal tax advice, preparing tax returns, or acting as a representative in tax matters without the proper qualifications is illegal.

Illegal, unless they have passed relevant exams and are registered with the Department of Business Development.

 

[JimGant]

1 hour ago, Neeranam said:

Giving formal tax advice ........is illegal

Here forward. let it be known, that all tax advice given on this forum .. is INFORMAL.

[4myr]

Some common sense opinion from a Thai tax adviser

https://www.pattayamail.com/latestnews/news/pattaya-tax-lawyer-pensioners-worries-and-overseas-transmitted-income-480825

 

Quote

I know that some expats have been to their local Thai Revenue Department (TRD) and apparently been told no need to register if they are living on pensions already taxed. But I would caution that many TRD officers don’t have fluency foreign languages which could lead to confusion or misunderstanding.

..

I doubt very much that TRD will target foreign retirees living on already-taxed foreign pensions. Now that Thailand is a member of the international Common Reporting Standard, it will be much easier to identify “big fish” in international banking procedures.

..

So should the typical retiree expat obtain a tax identification number and fill in a tax form relating to overseas income early next year? If you don’t, I doubt very much that there will be immediate consequences unless you are bringing in large, untaxed sums. On the other hand, you could be asked in later years to justify your self-exemption. There are many unknowns and it could take years for blurry issues to be resolved. For example, whether use of foreign credit cards in Thailand is remitted income or not is still much debated.

 

 

[JimGant]

26 minutes ago, 4myr said:

Some common sense opinion from a Thai tax adviser

Oh, BS. Another scare tactic that says you're too stupid to do a back-of-the-envelope to see if you're even close, or not, to having any taxable income (assessabe income minus TEDA), thus needing to file, 'lest you be branded a tax evader. Otherwise, sit back and have a beer. But for heaven's sake, don't fall for this 'come in for a free 15 minute assessment.' You just know where that's going to go.

 

Nope. Most reading this can determine whether or not they're in a Thai tax filing situation. Just ignore these grifters out there with a hook.

[chiang mai]

9 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Oh, BS. Another scare tactic that says you're too stupid to do a back-of-the-envelope to see if you're even close, or not, to having any taxable income (assessabe income minus TEDA), thus needing to file, 'lest you be branded a tax evader. Otherwise, sit back and have a beer. But for heaven's sake, don't fall for this 'come in for a free 15 minute assessment.' You just know where that's going to go.

 

Nope. Most reading this can determine whether or not they're in a Thai tax filing situation. Just ignore these grifters out there with a hook.

I actually agree that the guy is speaking common sense, especially when he says that there wont likely be any immediate response to not filing a return but you may well have to justify not filing later.

 

And for the umpteenth time, we all now fully understand that there is no rule that allows any of us to calculate whether tax is due or not, after TEDA is deducted and to use that as a guide whether to file or not, even the TRD staff have been quoted now confirming that it's assessable income and tax residency, end of. That said, I agree that people should avoid the free 15 minute chat and instead, wait and see what TRD has to say between now and then.

[JimGant]

49 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

but you may well have to justify not filing later.

...based on what data trail? They're somehow going to figure that some of your remitted income, that wasn't assessable income -- and which you didn't declare -- was ACTUALLY assessable income? These folks aren't clairvoyant.... No, unless there's a huge remittance that doesn't show up on a tax return, will they be curious enough to invite you in to explain assessable vs non assessable income. And, based on logic and TRD cost/benefit algorithms -- I doubt this number would be less than 3 million baht (and probably more).

 

54 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

And for the umpteenth time, we all now fully understand that there is no rule that allows any of us to calculate whether tax is due or not, after TEDA is deducted and to use that as a guide whether to file or not....

What in the world are you about? Of course we can calculate whether tax is due or not. This whole drill is based on self-assessment. I certainly can determine what remitted income is assessable. And, after deducting TEDA, do I have taxable income. Thus, certainly there is a rule -- the tax code -- that determines whether or not I owe taxes. This can all be done on your Excel spreadsheet. If I owe taxes, then, yeah, for sure I file a Thai tax return -- otherwise, I'm evading taxes. But, if no taxes owed (but my assessable income exceeds those 60/120/220k markers), then I have to decide whether to take the time, or not, to file; and the risk if I don't file. And, the risk, as far as I can see -- is minimum to naught. But, hey, this is an individual judgement call -- with no right answer.

[chiang mai]

32 minutes ago, JimGant said:

...based on what data trail? They're somehow going to figure that some of your remitted income, that wasn't assessable income -- and which you didn't declare -- was ACTUALLY assessable income? These folks aren't clairvoyant.... No, unless there's a huge remittance that doesn't show up on a tax return, will they be curious enough to invite you in to explain assessable vs non assessable income. And, based on logic and TRD cost/benefit algorithms -- I doubt this number would be less than 3 million baht (and probably more).

 

What in the world are you about? Of course we can calculate whether tax is due or not. This whole drill is based on self-assessment. I certainly can determine what remitted income is assessable. And, after deducting TEDA, do I have taxable income. Thus, certainly there is a rule -- the tax code -- that determines whether or not I owe taxes. This can all be done on your Excel spreadsheet. If I owe taxes, then, yeah, for sure I file a Thai tax return -- otherwise, I'm evading taxes. But, if no taxes owed (but my assessable income exceeds those 60/120/220k markers), then I have to decide whether to take the time, or not, to file; and the risk if I don't file. And, the risk, as far as I can see -- is minimum to naught. But, hey, this is an individual judgement call -- with no right answer.

How many times do you have to be reminded that the Revenue rules require you to file a return, if you are tax resident and have assessable income of 60k baht or more? There is no TEDA calculation beforehand to see if you need to file or not and there is no calculation to see if tax is due or not.....it's very simply, tax residency and 60k baht, no more, no less and the TRD staff have confirmed that in an earlier post, as does the TRD Code.

 

"Every Thai tax resident, Thai or foreign, is required to file a tax return, but this does not mean that every Thai tax resident will pay income tax. Thailand’s income tax works on a bracket system, so taxpayers with higher incomes pay higher percentages of that income in tax. To meet the minimum threshold for taxation in Thailand, a taxpayer must earn a minimum income.

 

For unmarried individuals, they meet the minimum threshold of taxation if they:

1. Have assessable income exceeding 60,000 THB.
2. Have assessable income under Category 1 only that exceeds 120,000 THB".

https://www.siam-legal.com/Business-in-Thailand/thailand-income-tax-for-foreigners.php

[JimGant]

29 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

How many times do you have to be reminded that the Revenue rules require you to file a return, if you are tax resident and have assessable income of 60k baht or more? There is no TEDA calculation beforehand to see if you need to file or not and there is no calculation to see if tax is due or not..

Of course there's a calculation to see if tax is due or not -- just subtract TEDA from your assessable income. Duh. Do this on the back of an envelope. If no taxes due -- decide if you should file, if assessable income exceeds 60k baht. Since if you don't file, and there's no way they'll know that you should have -- or, if magically they somehow know, and the fine is 2000 baht (never experienced) -- big f***** deal. And, forget the big scare someone interjected here awhile back, about 10 years of back audits -- because if there's no tax evasion in current year under question, do you think they'll waste resources for 10 years' of audits? Duh.

 

No, for goodness sakes, if you think somehow your remitted assessable income exceeds TEDA -- and thus you owe taxes and should file a return -- of course, do it. If you're mathematically challenged, hire an accounting firm. But if you do know your math, and you do know you don't owe any taxes -- opt to do nothing -- instead of filing and getting a TIN, and now becoming part of the TRD's data base. And knowing there's little chance of any repercussions. Sounds like an easy choice, if you're good at analyzing odds.

[chiang mai]

8 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Of course there's a calculation to see if tax is due or not -- just subtract TEDA from your assessable income. Duh. Do this on the back of an envelope. If no taxes due -- decide if you should file, if assessable income exceeds 60k baht. Since if you don't file, and there's no way they'll know that you should have -- or, if magically they somehow know, and the fine is 2000 baht (never experienced) -- big f***** deal. And, forget the big scare someone interjected here awhile back, about 10 years of back audits -- because if there's no tax evasion in current year under question, do you think they'll waste resources for 10 years' of audits? Duh.

 

No, for goodness sakes, if you think somehow your remitted assessable income exceeds TEDA -- and thus you owe taxes and should file a return -- of course, do it. If you're mathematically challenged, hire an accounting firm. But if you do know your math, and you do know you don't owe any taxes -- opt to do nothing -- instead of filing and getting a TIN, and now becoming part of the TRD's data base. And knowing there's little chance of any repercussions. Sounds like an easy choice, if you're good at analyzing odds.

I give up on you, part of me thinks you're trolling, another part believes you're just entrenched and myopic. Whatever it is, you need to quit advising members that they have a decision to make regarding whether to file or not, the TRD has taken that out of everyone's hands and made it real simple.....no excel spreadsheets, no pen and paper, no bag of a fag packet math, no TEDA subtractions, no mental calculations, just 60k assessable income and tax residency, anything different from those things and they are not compliant with the Revenue Code. Bye.

[JimGant]

3 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Whatever it is, you need to quit advising members that they have a decision to make regarding whether to file or not,

Wow, wouldn't this thread be a drag, if all we had to listen to is you.

[Lorry]

9 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

I give up on you, part of me thinks you're trolling, another part believes you're just entrenched and myopic. Whatever it is, you need to quit advising members that they have a decision to make regarding whether to file or not, the TRD has taken that out of everyone's hands and made it real simple.....no excel spreadsheets, no pen and paper, no bag of a fag packet math, no TEDA subtractions, no mental calculations, just 60k assessable income and tax residency, anything different from those things and they are not compliant with the Revenue Code. Bye.

I beg to differ.

The TRD hasn't made a clear decision - we get as many opinions from the TRD as they have staff.

This was to be expected. 

The first time they really demonstrated in public what a complete mess their own thinking is, was the French embassy video.

 

@4myr's post yesterday reminds me a lot of this video.  An incredible, incoherent hodgepodge of truths, halftruths, misunderstandings and falsehoods.

But they have the power. Like immigration. 

 

My personal conclusion: I really don't want to deal with these guys.

For the time being, this means I won't bring money into Thailand.  No condo,  no car, no house, no flight tickets, no nothing. What do I live on? I have some savings here,  and I am staying in Thailand a lot less than before.

Longer term, I will probably stay less than 180 days a year.

And when - not if - worldwide income will be taxed or the visa will be tied to a tax return,  I am out of here. Filing taxes at home is bad enough,  filing taxes in 2 bureaucratic countries - life is too short.

 

 

 

[chiang mai]

8 hours ago, JimGant said:

Wow, wouldn't this thread be a drag, if all we had to listen to is you.

It's not about who members are listening to, it's about the misinformation they are hearing repeatedly.

 

The TRD Code syasy it is is true, law firms tell us it is true plus now, first hand reports from members confirm it's what TRD requires. Despite those things, you continue to "instruct" members to do the exact opposite, without one shred of supportive evidence to back up what you say is correct. Your rhetoric on this issue is putting people in legal jeopardy and you need to stop repeating it.

[chiang mai]

8 hours ago, Lorry said:

I beg to differ.

The TRD hasn't made a clear decision - we get as many opinions from the TRD as they have staff.

This was to be expected. 

The first time they really demonstrated in public what a complete mess their own thinking is, was the French embassy video.

 

@4myr's post yesterday reminds me a lot of this video.  An incredible, incoherent hodgepodge of truths, halftruths, misunderstandings and falsehoods.

But they have the power. Like immigration. 

 

My personal conclusion: I really don't want to deal with these guys.

For the time being, this means I won't bring money into Thailand.  No condo,  no car, no house, no flight tickets, no nothing. What do I live on? I have some savings here,  and I am staying in Thailand a lot less than before.

Longer term, I will probably stay less than 180 days a year.

And when - not if - worldwide income will be taxed or the visa will be tied to a tax return,  I am out of here. Filing taxes at home is bad enough,  filing taxes in 2 bureaucratic countries - life is too short.

 

 

 

We disagree.

 

The TRD has made a very clear decision which is supported by very clear statements. This was not always the case and I agree there has been uncertainty in the past but now confirmation is coming through. The TRD Code has always said it, TRD staff are now reported by members to have said it and now law firms are in print on the subject and they confirm it is so. Enforcement is a separate subject, the intent and the desire however are now unambiguous.

[JimGant]

3 hours ago, chiang mai said:

Your rhetoric on this issue is putting people in legal jeopardy and you need to stop repeating it.

Sigh. So my observations and recommendations are being read by folks who can't think for themselves? I guess you don't think too highly of the readership. I'm sure your broken record of quoting the law has resonated with many, after contemplating alternatives. That's good, if that's what they feel comfortable with. But, I kind of look at this as akin to contemplating the risk of going 10 mph over the speed limit, and thus getting to your destination quicker. Most of us do this automatically, and go with the flow in the fast lane. Now and then, however, you get stuck behind some do gooder going the exact speed limit -- in the fast lane. And what's worse, is that he's proud of it. Barf.

[chiang mai]

2 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Sigh. So my observations and recommendations are being read by folks who can't think for themselves? I guess you don't think too highly of the readership. I'm sure your broken record of quoting the law has resonated with many, after contemplating alternatives. That's good, if that's what they feel comfortable with. But, I kind of look at this as akin to contemplating the risk of going 10 mph over the speed limit, and thus getting to your destination quicker. Most of us do this automatically, and go with the flow in the fast lane. Now and then, however, you get stuck behind some do gooder going the exact speed limit -- in the fast lane. And what's worse, is that he's proud of it. Barf.

People usually look to CPA's for guidance and take their word as being closer to fact than not. Many will believe they don't need to think for themselves after hearing your advice and that is simply wrong.

[Yumthai]

3 hours ago, chiang mai said:

Enforcement is a separate subject, the intent and the desire however are now unambiguous.

Enforcement is not a separate subject. Unenforced law/rules are nonsensical and irrelevant, to say the least. 

Providing legal information without indicating the in-field enforcement level is misleading.

People need comprehensive information in order to make their own right decision.

 

[redwood1]

4 hours ago, chiang mai said:

It's not about who members are listening to, it's about the misinformation they are hearing repeatedly.

 

The TRD Code syasy it is is true, law firms tell us it is true plus now, first hand reports from members confirm it's what TRD requires. Despite those things, you continue to "instruct" members to do the exact opposite, without one shred of supportive evidence to back up what you say is correct. Your rhetoric on this issue is putting people in legal jeopardy and you need to stop repeating it.

 

I have given the best advice of anybody on this thread....And I have given my advice out for 100% FREE

 

So let me repeat...

 

When you see the Thais start filing taxes it will be time to file...

When you see the Russians and Chinese and Indians start filing taxes it will be time to file...

 

Until then dont file ....

 

There you go no 15 minute consultation needed..

[The Cyclist]

18 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

People need comprehensive information in order to make their own right decision.

 

I think that information is quite clear.

 

Any tax resident of Thailand who remits in excess of 60k / 120k / 220k * in a tax year needs to file a tax return.

 

As per the Revenue Code. An Assessment Officer will apply TEDA's and assess whether any tax is due. An Assessment Officer, not an individual.

 

* Unless that income is exempt taxation in Thailand due to a DTA.

[The Cyclist]

2 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

When you see the Russians and Chinese and Indians start filing taxes it will be time to file...

 

If all the Russians, Chinese and Indians started jumping in the Chao Phraya river wearing concrete wellies, would you follow them ?
 

4 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

When you see the Thais start filing taxes it will be time to file...

 

Thai internal taxation policy has nothing to do with foreigners who are tax residents of Thailand reporting income remitted from overseas. This is a requirement of CRS which Thailand has signed up to.

 

As always, Individuals can do what they think is best for them. Some people like to live their life on the straight and narrow, even if it means a once a year PITA.

[4myr]

4 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

I think that information is quite clear.

 

Any tax resident of Thailand who remits in excess of 60k / 120k / 220k * in a tax year needs to file a tax return.

 

As per the Revenue Code. An Assessment Officer will apply TEDA's and assess whether any tax is due. An Assessment Officer, not an individual.

 

* Unless that income is exempt taxation in Thailand due to a DTA.

* Unless that income is exempt taxation in Thailand due to a DTA.

Should be:
* IF it is assessable income. Income is NOT assessable in the many cases, e.g.:
1) that income is exempt taxation in Thailand due to a DTA

2) savings/income before 2024
3) principal amount of investments with zero gain or with loss
etc.

[LivinLOS]

13 hours ago, chiang mai said:

How many times do you have to be reminded that the Revenue rules require you to file a return, if you are tax resident and have assessable income of 60k baht or more? There is no TEDA calculation beforehand to see if you need to file or not and there is no calculation to see if tax is due or not.....it's very simply, tax residency and 60k baht, no more, no less and the TRD staff have confirmed that in an earlier post, as does the TRD Code.

 

"Every Thai tax resident, Thai or foreign, is required to file a tax return, but this does not mean that every Thai tax resident will pay income tax. Thailand’s income tax works on a bracket system, so taxpayers with higher incomes pay higher percentages of that income in tax. To meet the minimum threshold for taxation in Thailand, a taxpayer must earn a minimum income.

 

For unmarried individuals, they meet the minimum threshold of taxation if they:

1. Have assessable income exceeding 60,000 THB.
2. Have assessable income under Category 1 only that exceeds 120,000 THB".

https://www.siam-legal.com/Business-in-Thailand/thailand-income-tax-for-foreigners.php

I have been having this debate with denialists on FB over and over.. The 'I calculated my exemptions and believe I have no liability' crowd are very strong. 

The Oz super guys are the heaviest in denial.. Pointing over and over to the 'soley' in the DTA without understanding (or rtaher refusing to) that if Oz chooses not to tax, that is then untaxed income. 

[The Cyclist]

5 minutes ago, 4myr said:

Income is NOT assessable in the many cases, e.g.:
 

2) savings/income before 2024
3) principal amount of investments with zero gain or with loss
etc.

 

And that is very Individual specific

 

And good luck fighting your corner on those if your paperwork is not 100% perfect.

[chiang mai]

17 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

 

I have given the best advice of anybody on this thread....And I have given my advice out for 100% FREE

 

So let me repeat...

 

When you see the Thais start filing taxes it will be time to file...

When you see the Russians and Chinese and Indians start filing taxes it will be time to file...

 

Until then dont file ....

 

There you go no 15 minute consultation needed..

What you understand about this issue RW is close to zero. You have no understanding of the fact that a majority of Thai's don't earn enough to pay tax. You also have no understanding that millions of null tax returns are filed every year. By telling people not to file until they see others do it you are spreading harmful and dangerous rumours which violates a number of forum rules but more importantly, puts other people at risk.

 

 

 

 

[Yumthai]

25 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

I think that information is quite clear.

 

Any tax resident of Thailand who remits in excess of 60k / 120k / 220k * in a tax year needs to file a tax return.

 

As per the Revenue Code. An Assessment Officer will apply TEDA's and assess whether any tax is due. An Assessment Officer, not an individual.

 

* Unless that income is exempt taxation in Thailand due to a DTA.

As I mentioned you need to associate rules enforcement level to get the full spectrum of what's in stake, then decide accordingly.

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, Yumthai said:

As I mentioned you need to associate rules enforcement level to get the full spectrum of what's in stake, then decide accordingly.

A stupid response! 

 

How many people insist on understanding the risk and penalties of something before deciding whether to adhere to basic rules and law. Most normal people just want to know what the rules and the law are in the first place, regardless of any associated potential penalties......that's the stage we are at.