K bank E-mail with Tax Forms attached ?

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, kuma said:

Exactly, do you know what you signed.

As far as I am concerned, all the window dressing of name address blah blah...all things they have, is a distraction from Part 4, Item 2 ... that is what this is all about.

I don't really agree.

They are really trying to collect Tax ID numbers for all nations where you might need them. As said before, they want home country addresses. Of course many expats no longer have a home country address or at least one that is relevant to their current tax residency.

 

The  section you referenced:

 

Quote

withhold from your account and/or the income derived from or though KASIKORNBANK FINANCIAL CONGLOMERATE in the amount as required by the domestic and/or foreign tax authorities, including the IRS, pursuant to the laws and/or regulations, and any agreements between KASIKORNBANK FINANCIAL CONGLOMERATE and such tax authorities; and ...

 

[Old Croc]

14 hours ago, Jingthing said:

No need to have a Thai TIN or file here if you aren't remitting any funds.

You may as well find out if the funds that you eventually remit are in a category that are Thai accessible. For example, for Americans only getting social security, there is no need ever get a Thai TIN or to file.

To be clear the current CRS form does not require a TIN unless you are actually required to have one under Thai Revenue rules.

Also good to know that anything you have abroad as of December 31, 2023 in bank accounts (as opposed to investments, etc.) can be sent to Thailand at any time in future as not accessible income for Thai tax. So be sure to get bank statements of that month.

I don't have a TIN nor plan to get one unless forced. The form they refused to accept only had basic details completed, no tax file numbers.

My last remittances were in Dec 2023, nothing this year nor expected for some years in the future. A recent property sale has provided a buffer. My funds have, and will continue, to accumulate in my home country.  I had remitted more than 25mill until 2023. That has now stopped. I will keep bank statements up to date in my home country.

[Old Croc]

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[Old Croc]

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[JimGant]

23 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Also good to know that anything you have abroad as of December 31, 2023 in bank accounts (as opposed to investments, etc.) can be sent to Thailand at any time in future as not accessible income for Thai tax.

Actually, the value of your investments on 12/31/2023, when converted to cash and remitted to Thailand, would not be assessable. So, too, IRA required minimum distributions -- plus anything additional -- would not be assessable income -- up to the IRA's value on 12/31/2023.

[Jingthing]

39 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Actually, the value of your investments on 12/31/2023, when converted to cash and remitted to Thailand, would not be assessable. So, too, IRA required minimum distributions -- plus anything additional -- would not be assessable income -- up to the IRA's value on 12/31/2023.

This is 100 percent contrary to my research which says IRAs both Roth and Traditional are classed as pensions by Thai Revenue.

I'm not saying you're wrong but this is a big deal for so many retired Americans.

 

My current understanding of the situation.

 

Say you withdrawal 10k usd from your Roth or Traditional during a year that you're a tax resident of Thailand and transfer that to Thailand.

 

Value of account December 31, 2023 irrelevant. 

 

If Roth not US taxable but insanely taxable as not exempt income by Thailand. I think though not fully sure that there might be a form to get reimbursed by the US for the Thai tax paid on Roth.

 

If Traditional taxable in the US and Thailand but credits can be made under double taxation but like Roth not exempt as social security is.

 

This needs to be elevated as an issue for Americans. The implications are massive!

 

 

[Jingthing]

47 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Actually, the value of your investments on 12/31/2023, when converted to cash and remitted to Thailand, would not be assessable. So, too, IRA required minimum distributions -- plus anything additional -- would not be assessable income -- up to the IRA's value on 12/31/2023.

Jim. I want you to clarify something in your post.

Did you mean the full value of the IRA at that date including all investments and the cash part of the account which is used for transfers OR did you mean only the cash part of the account?
if you only meant the cash part of the account, then for the vast majority of people this would be a trivial issue as most people are heavily invested in their IRA and don't hold very much in the cash part of their account.

I ASSUMED you meant the full value including the value of all investments (stocks, bonds, etc.).

Thank you.

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

15 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

This is 100 percent contrary to my research which says IRAs both Roth and Traditional are classed as pensions by Thai Revenue.

I'm not saying you're wrong but this is a big deal for so many retired Americans.

 

My current understanding of the situation.

 

Say you withdrawal 10k usd from your Roth or Traditional during a year that you're a tax resident of Thailand and transfer that to Thailand.

 

Value of account December 31, 2023 irrelevant. 

 

If Roth not US taxable but insanely taxable as not exempt income by Thailand. I think though not fully sure that there might be a form to get reimbursed by the US for the Thai tax paid on Roth.

 

If Traditional taxable in the US and Thailand but credits can be made under double taxation but like Roth not exempt as social security is.

 

This needs to be elevated as an issue for Americans. The implications are massive!

 

 

 

I think the issue of IRA/401k accounts came up during a Q&A session after a presentation to one of the foreign chambers of commerce a while back. An officer from the RD stated that IRAs and 401ks are considered by the RD to be self-directed pensions and that withdrawals would be considered assessable income subject to the rules relating to timing and remittance.

 

I don't recall that the subject of Roth IRAs was addressed. I could see that one interpretation might be that the portion of a withdrawal that consisted of after-tax contributions might not be assessable income, but the portion that was investment gains might be. This then brings up the issue of how to determine each portion.

[Jingthing]

On this IRA issue, how is it possible for us to get a completely definitive ruling on this?!?

This is not an individual situation issue at all!

Whatever the rule will be will apply to ALL IRA accounts, Roth and Traditional.

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

 

I think the issue of IRA/401k accounts came up during a Q&A session after a presentation to one of the foreign chambers of commerce a while back. An officer from the RD stated that IRAs and 401ks are considered by the RD to be self-directed pensions and that withdrawals would be considered assessable income subject to the rules relating to timing and remittance.

 

I don't recall that the subject of Roth IRAs was addressed. I could see that one interpretation might be that the portion of a withdrawal that consisted of after-tax contributions might not be assessable income, but the portion that was investment gains might be. This then brings up the issue of how to determine each portion.

I know that video.

Actually it was almost all about Roth.

It was not like what you said.

It understood that Roth is not taxable in the US but asserted that the full amount of ttansfers to Thailand are seen as tax accessible pension income. No mention whatsover of any relevance to the value balance on 12/31/2023.

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

Just now, Jingthing said:

I know that video.

Actually it was almost all about Roth.

It was not like what you said.

It understood that Roth is not taxable in the US but asserted that the full amount of ttansfers to Thailand are seen as tax accessible pension income. No mention whatsover of any relevance to the value balance on 12/31/2023.

 

Ok. I must have misunderstood.

[JeffersLos]

My bank hasn't emailed me anything. I'm not filing any tax. Will I be deported? 

[Jingthing]

Just now, JeffersLos said:

My bank hasn't emailed me anything. I'm not filing any tax. Will I be deported? 

The forms are not directly linked to Thai Revenue.

They want you to state your Thai Tax ID only IF you are required to have one.

Just being a Thai tax resident (which it also doesn't determine on the form) does not necessarily mean you need a Thai Tax ID.

If you do intentionally evade Thai taxation if you're liable for it and are caught in an audit, then there are potential harsh consequences, large fines, even though very unlikely prison. 

[Joe32]

14 hours ago, topt said:

Why is it a load of whatever?

Thailand signed up to CRS in full last year - many news reports on this.

If you read some actual CRS info (from an OECD web site  ) like @Yumthai quoted earlier you will see that all banks are "supposed" to do certain things. UK banks have been asking for this kind of info for years.

 

Thai people aren't getting them because they are not foreign and unlikely to have foreign bank accounts - yes that is a generalisation but you should know what I mean.

The thing is....I don't have anything foreign anymore. Why am I supposed to do this all?

Besides my Dutch passport, I own nothing abroad, no address, no bank accounts, nothing.

[JimGant]

50 minutes ago, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

An officer from the RD stated that IRAs and 401ks are considered by the RD to be self-directed pensions and that withdrawals would be considered assessable income subject to the rules relating to timing and remittance.

Yes. And per the DTA, Thailand has primary taxation authority to tax these remittances. UNLESS this new TRD rule is used as an exception:

 

Quote

The Revenue Department issued another instruction on 21 November 2023 to clarify that their new interpretation of the law will not apply to foreign income earned before 1 Jan 2024

 

So, what's in your IRA? Pre 2024 income; thus not assessable by TRD decree. Yes, tax deferred, in the case of Traditionl IRAs -- or after tax income, in the case of a Roth (or tx exempt, for subsequent earnings). But, in both cases, the assets in your IRA began as pre 2024 income -- what they look like on 12/31/2023 is irrelevant, i.e., cash, stocks, whatever. So, it looks clear -- at least to me -- that the TRD decree means your IRA distributions, albeit labelled self directed pensions, are not taxable -- except for income accumulated post 2023 -- and recent info says you can use FIFO, thus these earnings would represent the last element of any monies remitted.

 

Without that Nov 2023 decree, the whole remittance scenario would be different. The Traditional IRA would be taxable by Thailand. As for Roth IRAs -- look at the US-UK DTA for the protocol that dictates a tax exempt Roth by the US must be tax exempt by the UK. If we ever get to this point with Thailand, with worldwide taxation, then probably such a protocol would be needed for the US-Thai DTA to exempt Roth IRAs. But, a story for another day.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[topt]

2 hours ago, Joe32 said:

The thing is....I don't have anything foreign anymore. Why am I supposed to do this all?

Besides my Dutch passport, I own nothing abroad, no address, no bank accounts, nothing.

Because they don't know that. 

[Joe32]

2 hours ago, topt said:

Because they don't know that. 

So, they send it to everyone they think it's necessary for. But if you don't have anything connected to any other country, it won't be necessary to fill in? They won't make a big deal out of this?

[topt]

1 minute ago, Joe32 said:

So, they send it to everyone they think it's necessary for. But if you don't have anything connected to any other country, it won't be necessary to fill in? They won't make a big deal out of this?

No idea if they will or not. The potential bank response has been covered earlier in this thread and basically no one here will know what they may decide to do.

The thing to do would be to go along to your branch and see what they say or just write Not Applicable in the relevant boxes. If you note some of the previous replies posters did not fill out the forms and just signed a copy of passport or whatever. In many ways it may (for some branches) just be a box ticking exercise.

[The Cyclist]

4 hours ago, Joe32 said:

The thing is....I don't have anything foreign anymore. Why am I supposed to do this all?

Besides my Dutch passport, I own nothing abroad, no address, no bank accounts, nothing.

 

Are you filing taxes in Thailand as a full time resident of Thailand ?
 

3 minutes ago, Joe32 said:

So, they send it to everyone they think it's necessary for. But if you don't have anything connected to any other country, it won't be necessary to fill in? They won't make a big deal out of this?

 

If not, someone is going to start asking questions as to what sources of money / income  you are living on.

[bmanly]

So it's a day after the 20th which was suppose to be the deadline. I never got any emails or requests so I did nothing as I am not in Thailand right now. Just did a transfer today on the app, all working fine, same as before.

[chiang mai]

16 hours ago, JimGant said:

Yes. And per the DTA, Thailand has primary taxation authority to tax these remittances. UNLESS this new TRD rule is used as an exception:

 

 

So, what's in your IRA? Pre 2024 income; thus not assessable by TRD decree. Yes, tax deferred, in the case of Traditionl IRAs -- or after tax income, in the case of a Roth (or tx exempt, for subsequent earnings). But, in both cases, the assets in your IRA began as pre 2024 income -- what they look like on 12/31/2023 is irrelevant, i.e., cash, stocks, whatever. So, it looks clear -- at least to me -- that the TRD decree means your IRA distributions, albeit labelled self directed pensions, are not taxable -- except for income accumulated post 2023 -- and recent info says you can use FIFO, thus these earnings would represent the last element of any monies remitted.

 

Without that Nov 2023 decree, the whole remittance scenario would be different. The Traditional IRA would be taxable by Thailand. As for Roth IRAs -- look at the US-UK DTA for the protocol that dictates a tax exempt Roth by the US must be tax exempt by the UK. If we ever get to this point with Thailand, with worldwide taxation, then probably such a protocol would be needed for the US-Thai DTA to exempt Roth IRAs. But, a story for another day.

 

Isn't this a valuation issue? I agree the income was earned prior to 31/12/23 hence Por162 applies. But without knowing the value on that date it's not possible to separate assessable and non-assessable funds.

[Joe32]

16 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Are you filing taxes in Thailand as a full time resident of Thailand ?
 

 

If not, someone is going to start asking questions as to what sources of money / income  you are living on.

Yes, I do.

 

The only reason is, I'm really not good with tax stuff. So, I don't want to fill in stuff I don't know about. Or share anything that I don't know will be shared without me knowing it.

[The Cyclist]

5 hours ago, bmanly said:

So it's a day after the 20th which was suppose to be the deadline. I never got any emails or requests so I did nothing as I am not in Thailand right now. Just did a transfer today on the app, all working fine, same as before.

 

What did you expect to happen the day after the deadline ?
 

I wouldn't really expect anything to happen until tax filing season closes at the end of March.

 

Possibly then, when things start being consolidated, things will start to happen.

[The Cyclist]

16 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

Are you filing taxes in Thailand as a full time resident of Thailand ?

 

1 minute ago, Joe32 said:

Yes, I do.

 

Then if you are not remitting income from overseas, through any means whatsover, then the CRS forms sent out by KBank do not apply to you.

 

Just keep filing your taxes as you have been doing previously.

[Joe32]

28 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

 

Then if you are not remitting income from overseas, through any means whatsover, then the CRS forms sent out by KBank do not apply to you.

 

Just keep filing your taxes as you have been doing previously.

So, this is all purely because of overseas income, right?

[JimGant]

4 hours ago, chiang mai said:

Isn't this a valuation issue? I agree the income was earned prior to 31/12/23 hence Por162 applies. But without knowing the value on that date it's not possible to separate assessable and non-assessable funds.

Not sure I follow.... I certainly know the value of my IRA on Dec 31 2024. Yes, I converted the income I had contributed to the IRA into mutual funds, but it's their value on 12/31/2024 that becomes my baseline figure for what I can remit to Thailand non assessable per Por 162. Already in 2024 I had to sell some of the mutual funds in my IRA to meet the required minimum distribution. And this sale, now cash, has been remitted already to Thailand -- and per Por 162, it certainly would not show up on a Thai tax return.

[The Cyclist]

27 minutes ago, Joe32 said:

So, this is all purely because of overseas income, right?

 

Overseas income would be the wrong terminology. But it would be the correct terminology for most expats living legally in Thailand, as Thai tax residents.

 

CRS is primarly for the avoidance and detection of tax evasion / avoidance across the borders of Countries signed up to CRS.

 

If you do not move money across its borders it doesnt really apply. Just like CRS does not apply to the majority of Thai Citizens.

 

I wouldn't like to try and speculate what any secondary functions CRS data could be used for.

[Joe32]

2 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Overseas income would be the wrong terminology. But it would be the correct terminology for most expats living legally in Thailand, as Thai tax residents.

 

CRS is primarly for the avoidance and detection of tax evasion / avoidance across the borders of Countries signed up to CRS.

 

If you do not move money across its borders it doesnt really apply. Just like CRS does not apply to the majority of Thai Citizens.

 

I wouldn't like to try and speculate what any secondary functions CRS data could be used for.

Hmm, I think after checking this topic for a while now, they've just sent this to everyone, in case it applies to you. They assume, as a foreigner, we send and receive money from abroad. They expect everyone to fill it in, so they can detect if someone is doing something illegal, but if you haven't filed it in and not doing anything illegally, it won't be a big deal as there's no money transferred across the borders. But later once you want to do this, you might run into some more paperwork, I guess.

[The Cyclist]

5 minutes ago, Joe32 said:

They assume, as a foreigner, we send and receive money from abroad.

 

Banks will not ' assume ' they know whether you remit money from abroad

[Jingthing]

Well so far they didn't send to everyone (all foreigners or even all U.S. nationals).

I assumed they missed me because they had an error in my email address but I both didn't get the email and they did have my correct email address in their system already.

Of the three Thai bank accounts I have, Kbank is the least vital to me and I have never transferred money from abroad into it and never plan to. I was interested to comply with the forms as a test run for my other accounts, to understand better what they're up to exactly with this, in case my other banks demand it. For me, it was well worth it to know.