Help needed with one question about UK frozen state pension.

[Man Mart]

It’s all to do with negotiated agreements between countries regarding social security payments. Just ask AI. It tells you all you need to know. However, things will never change in Thailand as there are too many UK expats here which will cost the UK money. Either bite the bullet or return to the UK. However, when you do visit the UK or EU just make sure you apply for the increase whilst you are there like I do : ) As for the original question. If you do as you suggest and then go back to Thailand and still claim the increase it will be classed as fraud!

Edited 19 hours ago by Man Mart

[Keith5588]

16 hours ago, scottiejohn said:

Just sign up to a UK mail forwarding company a few months before you move and all will be well.  Do not wait until you have left!!!

Here is a very reliable one; Mail Forwarding | Mail Scanning | Mail Redirection | Mail Address

 

PS;  Also make sure you get at least two pay as you go UK sim cards before you leave. Preferably with at least 4-6 months non use validity.  Do your homework now!

@scottiejohn    thanks for the mail forwarding link and the good advice. This is one thing that I will now give thought to.

I have prepared well for going to the UK except for mail forwarding. I have a very good friend who has been scanning my mail and emailing to me. I have done as much as I can to stop letter post and have just had a look and I only received 17 letters over the last 1 year. It should be even less after I sort a few things when in the UK.

This was my dilemma, do I pay for Mail forwarding for such few letters?

But I am now going to think seriously about it again.

Concerning PAYG SIM cards I have already made a note to do as you suggest.

I am now 71 and sometimes forget things so for our holidays with my Thai gf, we have been together 24/7 for the last 7 years and get along well, I have been lucky, I make plans in a WORD file.  For my UK trip I have made 8 WORD files “Selling my house”  “Decorating my house”, “Actions” etc.

I bought a Vodafone PAYG SIM over 7 years ago before coming to Thailand, without it I would have had problems accessing my bank accounts. Twice I have been worried when it stopped working even in a different phone, luckily a good clean of the SIM card fixed it. So yes I will make sure I have 2 or 3 PAYG SIM cards. I would even buy an eSIM but my phones do not have eSIM capability and I don’t think I will be buying  a new phone just for that.  

[Keith5588]

15 hours ago, BritManToo said:

Leave your address at your existing home. They won't check if you live there or not and your credit check at that address will still be good, if you offer no new UK address.

I've done that, it it's worked for the past 16 years.

@BritManToo    thanks. I was wondering if I could just leave my UK address as it is with DWP. I guess it depends if DWP etc do send out letters and the reaction of the new owners of my house.

I will decide after I find out more concerning mail forwarding costs.

Also thanks for the Skype UK landline information, I will also look into that.

I know I am going off topic myself, maybe I should start another post of something like “All actions to take in the UK before moving permanently to Thailand”

I have had a problem with Nationwide Building Society. About 4 years ago they had some sort of update that removed all my payee’s. Since then I have not been able to form a new payee without my debit card + card reader. I can login online and I have sent secure messages but all they do is apologise. I have a card reader but my friend in the UK has my debit card. He would send the card to me and even offered to synchronise so I get the OTP but luckily I have moved enough money into my Thai bank to last until I am in the UK. Probably I could take it higher up in Nationwide but then I think I would have to give them all sorts of information that I live permanently in Thailand.

So I will be opening some of the newer online banks like Starling, Chase, Monzo etc. and have my state pension paid to one of them.

[Keith5588]

20 hours ago, Chivas said:

Well frankly that decision over uprated state pension awards will be shortly null and void anyway

 

As per the other thread over new Taxation issues Thailand has joined earlier this year the reporting group which reports back to your home countries tax office monies that sit in Thai accounts and usage of such

 

DWP will have little difficulty in assessing in short order who should be getting it and should not......

 

State Pension is not sanctionable though despite what people think or claim and its on the DWP website (I was also very surprised)

 

As its unlikely you're living overseas solely on state pension they'll still get their pound of flesh back though somehow but if you are they can do nothing about recovering back payments

@Chivas Thank you for the very good information. 

[Keith5588]

17 hours ago, Marvo said:

As another example of UK Gov't practice, my (Thai) wife is currently on the five-year route to getting Indefinite Leave to Remain in the UK. For the entire 5 yr period we have to supply evidence supporting the case that she is living and "habitually resident" in the UK. They have long since removed any "183 days" or "more than 6 months in a calendar year" criteria and replaced it with the "habitually resident" requirement. They are asking for 6-12 joint/individually addressed utility/bank/gov't correspondences evenly spread over the 5 years. So, we can assume the DWP will be equally fastidious when ascertaining "habitual residency" for re-linking state pension entitlements.

Thanks for the information @Marvo

[BritManToo]

1 hour ago, Keith5588 said:

I have had a problem with Nationwide Building Society. About 4 years ago they had some sort of update that removed all my payee’s. Since then I have not been able to form a new payee without my debit card + card reader.

Most banks have now moved to facial recognition (+OTP) to authorize new payees.

Agree, the card + pin gen were a pain in the butt, especially as I only had a photo of my card.

Edited 17 hours ago by BritManToo

[Goodison]

1) The UK will have a digital border next year and know every time we leave and enter the Country.

 

2) Thailand is now a CRS Country and if you want to know what info they and HMRC will be sharing look up Common Reporting Standard WIKIPEDIA. Also note HMRC & DWP share info.

 

3) Tax residence in the UK is 183 days or more in a Tax year. For Habitual Residence there is no set time. The link below is about housing benefits but says what Habitual Residence is. It also says you can lose it in 1 day and the example given is if you move to another Country intending to stay there a long time. It also states there is no set time for obtaining Habitual Residency and that you have to pass a Habitual Residence Test that has no list of criteria other convincing the person doing the assessment that you are settled in the UK and now an Habitual Resident. Surely if you move to the Philippines you will have to pass Habitual Residence test for there for your state pension to be reset. The YTer though with no source he can quote other than what somebody at DWP told him on the phone is saying it is the 185 day Rule when no Rule exists and he is giving out misinformation. That is not to say that the DWP don’t have a guide line of 185 days but to reset the state pension is about achieving Habitual Resident status and I would want that on writing. 
 

https://www.housing-rights.info/habitual-residence-test.php

Edited 12 hours ago by Goodison

[jori123]

8 hours ago, Man Mart said:

It’s all to do with negotiated agreements between countries regarding social security payments. Just ask AI. It tells you all you need to know. However, things will never change in Thailand as there are too many UK expats here which will cost the UK money. Either bite the bullet or return to the UK. However, when you do visit the UK or EU just make sure you apply for the increase whilst you are there like I do : ) As for the original question. If you do as you suggest and then go back to Thailand and still claim the increase it will be classed as fraud!

A1  u
If a OAP lives permanently in frozen country and receives unfrozen pension   is that fraud
Copilot
If an OAP (Old Age Pensioner) resides permanently in a frozen country and receives an unfrozen pension, it is not inherently fraudulent. Let me explain:

[jori123]

2 hours ago, Goodison said:

1) The UK will have a digital border next year and know every time we leave and enter the Country.

 

2) Thailand is now a CRS Country and if you want to know what info they and HMRC will be sharing look up Common Reporting Standard WIKIPEDIA. Also note HMRC & DWP share info.

 

3) Tax residence in the UK is 183 days or more in a Tax year. For Habitual Residence there is no set time. The link below is about housing benefits but says what Habitual Residence is. It also says you can lose it in 1 day and the example given is if you move to another Country intending to stay there a long time. It also states there is no set time for obtaining Habitual Residency and that you have to pass a Habitual Residence Test that has no list of criteria other convincing the person doing the assessment that you are settled in the UK and now an Habitual Resident. Surely if you move to the Philippines you will have to pass Habitual Residence test for there for your state pension to be reset. The YTer though with no source he can quote other than what somebody at DWP told him on the phone is saying it is the 185 day Rule when no Rule exists and he is giving out misinformation. That is not to say that the DWP don’t have a guide line of 185 days but to reset the state pension is about achieving Habitual Resident status and I would want that on writing. 
 

https://www.housing-rights.info/habitual-residence-test.php

If  that is true ,which is a cobbled together load of hocus and has been launched on the unfrozen from  the likes ,since time began     There is no punishment or penalties  Its a disqualifying plus non sanctionable benefit /allowance.     20 odd years away    what test? tell them anything'd want to be bothered

[jori123]

8 hours ago, Keith5588 said:

@BritManToo    thanks. I was wondering if I could just leave my UK address as it is with DWP. I guess it depends if DWP etc do send out letters and the reaction of the new owners of my house.

I will decide after I find out more concerning mail forwarding costs.

Also thanks for the Skype UK landline information, I will also look into that.

I know I am going off topic myself, maybe I should start another post of something like “All actions to take in the UK before moving permanently to Thailand”

I have had a problem with Nationwide Building Society. About 4 years ago they had some sort of update that removed all my payee’s. Since then I have not been able to form a new payee without my debit card + card reader. I can login online and I have sent secure messages but all they do is apologise. I have a card reader but my friend in the UK has my debit card. He would send the card to me and even offered to synchronise so I get the OTP but luckily I have moved enough money into my Thai bank to last until I am in the UK. Probably I could take it higher up in Nationwide but then I think I would have to give them all sorts of information that I live permanently in Thailand.

So I will be opening some of the newer online banks like Starling, Chase, Monzo etc. and have my state pension paid to one of them.

Worrying too much   Put a vpn on the device ur using, could be anywhere in the world, but still in UK.  You will need it for .gov.UK

  If u are thinking at mail forwarding try a Spanish one, or anywhere in the EU,UK one tend to be bit pricier

[Keith5588]

2 hours ago, Goodison said:

1) The UK will have a digital border next year and know every time we leave and enter the Country.

 

2) Thailand is now a CRS Country and if you want to know what info they and HMRC will be sharing look up Common Reporting Standard WIKIPEDIA. Also note HMRC & DWP share info.

 

3) Tax residence in the UK is 183 days or more in a Tax year. For Habitual Residence there is no set time. The link below is about housing benefits but says what Habitual Residence is. It also says you can lose it in 1 day and the example given is if you move to another Country intending to stay there a long time. It also states there is no set time for obtaining Habitual Residency and that you have to pass a Habitual Residence Test that has no list of criteria other convincing the person doing the assessment that you are settled in the UK and now an Habitual Resident. Surely if you move to the Philippines you will have to pass Habitual Residence test for there for your state pension to be reset. The YTer though with no source he can quote other than what somebody at DWP told him on the phone is saying it is the 185 day Rule when no Rule exists and he is giving out misinformation. That is not to say that the DWP don’t have a guide line of 185 days but to reset the state pension is about achieving Habitual Resident status and I would want that on writing. 
 

https://www.housing-rights.info/habitual-residence-test.php

Thank you  @Goodison  

I tend to agree with you.  I think we may find out if Les is correct or not in the near future.

 

Les first posted a video about 8 months ago informing us that we could just go to the Philippines for 185 days to permanently increase frozen UK state pensions. To be fair he did state phone numbers of DWP and so made it easy for anyone to check for themselves.

 A few months after this first video I did email Les saying that I think he could be wrong. I had read a lot of a long post on the subject about 2 years ago, I won’t do that again!  I think it was mainly about a group of people from Canada actually travelling to the UK to help lobby the UK government concerning freezing of state pensions. I cannot remember exact details but I also cannot remember reading that there is a way to increase the frozen state pension to a current higher amount simply by staying in the UK 185 days. I am sure some on frozen UK state pensions travel to the UK to see family and could increase their length of stay, in fact I know a friend who has lived in Thailand for about 25 years did just that this year.

 

I find it hard to believe that Les is the only person to discover this loophole but I hope I am wrong.

 

In the last few days Les has doubled down and released another video on this subject.

One person commented that they followed Les’s suggestion and went to the Philippines in June and will return to Thailand in December and they have contacted DWP who said that they will keep the updated payment on their return to Thailand.

For me this could be ambiguous, it could mean that the person will keep the higher payments that they received while in the Philippines, it does not necessarily mean that they will continue to receive the higher payments. You have to be so careful.  

I have enjoyed watching some of Les’s Youtube video’s and I believe that his intention is honourable in wanting to help people, and of course he may be right.

 

[BritManToo]

3 hours ago, Goodison said:

1) The UK will have a digital border next year and know every time we leave and enter the Country

Brexit deal says no boarder checks with Ireland, as far as I know.

[Goodison]

@Keith5588@Keith5588 

1) The guy who said he went the Philippines in June and will return December saying the he kept in touch with the DWP and who have told him he will keep the rate has had a few questions asked him under that comment and not answered any. That is not to say he won’t but I don’t see how he will unless he had the DWP recognize he was Habitually resident in the Philippines. Also the guy said he was told not got it in writing. 

 

2) Les keeps  mentioning the 185 day rule and you can’t find any reference to this supposed Rule anywhere. There is plenty for the 183 days or more in the UK in an April to April tax year makes you tax resident in the UK but in the Philippines it is 180 days in a Calendar year as their tax year is a Calendar year. There is also plenty you can find for claiming benefits and getting access to the NHS at no charge at point of use and that it is all dependent on wether you are a habitual resident or not and that there is no set time for losing or gaining habitual resident status and it is all down ti the DWP assessment.

 

3) The link below tells you all you need to know about unfreezing your pension when visiting the UK or a unfrozen Country. This tells you have to change your status from a visitor to something else to keep that new rate when you leave. I say that something else is Habitual Resident and for that there is no 185 day rule or any set time period. Add to this Mike Lister who has done it and posted the letter contents he got from the DWP clearly stating it was about being a Habitual Restaurant dent and not numbers of days in Country. 
 

 

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/pensions/article-10786301/Can-state-pension-unfrozen-visit-UK.html

 

Edited 9 hours ago by Goodison

[ericbj]

On 11/24/2024 at 7:47 PM, treetops said:

 

But they would be less likely to head there without the agreement perhaps, if they are thinking of provision for their retirement years?

The Philippines government could have sought the deal because their retirement income would help to boost the Philippines economy.  And also boost local tax revenues.

[Goodison]

@BritManToo  We had the Commmon Travel Area with Ireland since 1922. For goods I think you will find no checks  is only for NI which has been left with one foot in the EU.

[Keith5588]

33 minutes ago, Goodison said:

@Keith5588@Keith5588 

1) The guy who said he went the Philippines in June and will return December saying the he kept in touch with the DWP and who have told him he will keep the rate has had a few questions asked him under that comment and not answered any. That is not to say he won’t but I don’t see how he will unless he had the DWP recognize he was Habitually resident in the Philippines. Also the guy said he was told not got it in writing. 

 

2) Les keeps  mentioning the 185 day rule and you can’t find any reference to this supposed Rule anywhere. There is plenty for the 183 days or more in the UK in an April to April tax year makes you tax resident in the UK but in the Philippines it is 180 days in a Calendar year as their tax year is a Calendar year. There is also plenty you can find for claiming benefits and getting access to the NHS at no charge at point of use and that it is all dependent on wether you are a habitual resident or not and that there is no set time for losing or gaining habitual resident status and it is all down ti the DWP assessment.

 

3) The link below tells you all you need to know about unfreezing your pension when visiting the UK or a unfrozen Country. This tells you have to change your status from a visitor to something else to keep that new rate when you leave. I say that something else is Habitual Resident and for that there is no 185 day rule or any set time period. Add to this Mike Lister who has done it and posted the letter contents he got from the DWP clearly stating it was about being a Habitual Restaurant dent and not numbers of days in Country. 
 

 

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/pensions/article-10786301/Can-state-pension-unfrozen-visit-UK.html

 

Thanks again  @Goodison  Thank you for spending the time obtaining the information.

 

In the thisismoney article that you gave a link to it states the following

John Duffy is chair of the International Consortium of British Pensioners which runs the End Frozen Pensions campaign. He says:

Quite astonishingly, a 'frozen' state pensioner will find their UK state pension 'thawed' if they return to the UK, even if only for a short period.

Indeed, the pension is unfrozen during any visit to a list of 'unfrozen' countries, not just the UK.

This means that somebody could receive – for example - £46 in one week living in a 'frozen' country, visit the UK, where their weekly pension will be tripled, only for this to revert to the frozen rate when back in their country of residence.

 

This totally contradicts what Les is saying in his Youtube videos. I know it is not directly from DWP but it is in writing and from a person who should know.

[Goodison]

@Keith5588 I found the link below and the last para on the says anybody who takes the habitual resident test will receive a letter explaining the reason for the pass or fail decision and this is from the houses of parliament and the answer is given by the DWP. So if we accept that to unfreeze your pension you need to obtain habitual resident status then you will get this in writing. Les however insists there is this 185 day rule that nobody can find anywhere and says nothing about getting anything in writing.

 

https://questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-questions/detail/2022-04-14/154212

 

 

 

Edited 8 hours ago by Goodison

[ericbj]

One should perhaps consider two situations:

 

1.  A visit to the U.K. or other 'unfrozen' country;

 

2.  Establishment (to DWP's satisfaction) of 'habitual residence' in the U.K. or other unfrozen country.

 

[ericbj]

Unspoken thoughts of govt. : 🙂

 

"Pension rights?  Sorry, folks.  We've got other priorities :

 

"1.  Winning a war with Russia.  To fulfill our predictions of victory  and salvage our reputations.

 

"2.  Flooding the country with immigrants.  Who, come what may, will vote us back into office at the next elections."

[Keith5588]

Maybe Les in his Youtube is correct?

 

I have just had a look at this telegraph article written on 14th Aug 2024. I had to give my email address and form a password to read it.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/pensions/state-pensions/what-is-frozen-state-pension-how-unfreeze-it/?ICID=continue_without_subscribing_reg_first 

 

Here is a copy of some parts:-

 

How can I unfreeze my state pension? 

If you move to a country eligible for state pension rises for more than 183 days a year, your state pension will “unfreeze” and jump to the amount you’d be entitled to if you’d stayed in an eligible country the whole time.

It will also start to increase annually with the triple lock. However, this cannot be backdated, so any money you missed out on when you didn’t live there is lost.

For example, if you get the full new state pension but left the UK in 2020, you’d still receive state pension payments of £168.60 a week (the rate it was in 2020). But, if you moved back to the UK, or to another country where uplifts are provided, your pension would be increased to £221.20 a week, the full rate for 2024-25. You wouldn’t receive anything for the increases you missed.

If you spend more than half the year in an eligible country, you’ll still get annual increases even if you spend the rest of the time in one that isn’t.

 

If you scroll down to the FAQ

What if I return to the UK and then leave again? 

When you return, your state pension will be topped up to the full level for the duration of your time in the UK – but it will freeze again at that rate when you leave.

For example, if you claimed your state pension in January 2020 and left the UK for a country not eligible for increases, it would be frozen at £168.60 a week. 

If you returned to live in the UK in 2024, you would start getting the current rate for 2024 to 2025, of £221.20. If you lived in the UK until 2030 and then left, your state pension would be frozen again at the 2030 rate. 

If you visited or came to the UK temporarily, you would get £221.20 rate until you left, when it would revert to the rate you were getting when you initially left – £168.60. 

[Goodison]

@Keith5588 I read that  Telegraph article before. Let’s break it down.

 

1) It says that if you spend 183 days in an unfrozen Country then for the rest of the time you can spend it in a frozen Country and still get the current rate for the whole year and any yearly increases BUT YOU MUST HAVE YOUR PENSION PAID TO THE UNFROZEN COUNTRY.

 

2) Where it asks what if I return to the UK and then leave again it gives the example of returning to the UK in 2024 and leaving 6 later in 2030 and says you will keep the 2030 rate but after 6 years how could the DWP say you have not been a Habitual Resident of the UK.

 

In the comments there are links that say returning British Citizen Expats have to apply for Habitual Resident status and that the decision will be sent to them by letter from the DWP but if they fail they can reapply when they think the meet the criteria. Also Mike Lister who showed the contents of his letter from the DWP were the DWP clearly stated there is no set period of time to establish habitual residence and it is about convincing the DWP assessment that you have settled back in the UK with the intent to stay and that you need to be classed as a habitual resident to reset your state pension so it doesn’t go back down and the same is said in other links. So with reference to the above is anybody confident that going to the Philippines for 185 days then returning to Thailand with no intention of returning to the Philippines that the DWP will freeze their pension at the current rate it was when they returned to Thailand. As I read they would say you was in the Philippines for over 183 days so you get the current rate for the rest of year then it goes back to the rate it was before you went the Philippines. 
 

Did Les actually ask it as once I done 185 days in the Philippines I will return to Thailand for good and will my pension be reset at the current rate and not go back down or did he ask along the lines of if I spend 185 days in the Philippines then return to Thailand will I keep the current rate. They are 2 very different questions.

[jori123]

28 minutes ago, Goodison said:

@Keith5588 I read that  Telegraph article before. Let’s break it down.

 

1) It says that if you spend 183 days in an unfrozen Country then for the rest of the time you can spend it in a frozen Country and still get the current rate for the whole year and any yearly increases BUT YOU MUST HAVE YOUR PENSION PAID TO THE UNFROZEN COUNTRY.

 

2) Where it asks what if I return to the UK and then leave again it gives the example of returning to the UK in 2024 and leaving 6 later in 2030 and says you will keep the 2030 rate but after 6 years how could the DWP say you have not been a Habitual Resident of the UK.

 

In the comments there are links that say returning British Citizen Expats have to apply for Habitual Resident status and that the decision will be sent to them by letter from the DWP but if they fail they can reapply when they think the meet the criteria. Also Mike Lister who showed the contents of his letter from the DWP were the DWP clearly stated there is no set period of time to establish habitual residence and it is about convincing the DWP assessment that you have settled back in the UK with the intent to stay and that you need to be classed as a habitual resident to reset your state pension so it doesn’t go back down and the same is said in other links. So with reference to the above is anybody confident that going to the Philippines for 185 days then returning to Thailand with no intention of returning to the Philippines that the DWP will freeze their pension at the current rate it was when they returned to Thailand. As I read they would say you was in the Philippines for over 183 days so you get the current rate for the rest of year then it goes back to the rate it was before you went the Philippines. 
 

Did Les actually ask it as once I done 185 days in the Philippines I will return to Thailand for good and will my pension be reset at the current rate and not go back down or did he ask along the lines of if I spend 185 days in the Philippines then return to Thailand will I keep the current rate. They are 2 very different questions.

Tosh,  the decision maker will make final judgement,  No days away, nothing  to determine anything  Talking about  SP, somebody mentioned fraud,  you think a fraud charge will be given when the subject itself is fraud proof  ie non sanctionable/disqualifying?

 

• 
• Member
• •  149

Posted Monday at 12:32 AM (edited)

   A1     8.8% rise to the OAP,a guy at 66 just retiring will lose some 81,000 pounds with compounding by the age of 82

Those figures are indeed eye-opening! The compounding effect of an 8.8% rise in the State Pension (OAP) can lead to significant financial differences over time. It's understandable that this issue is causing concern among pensioners and advocates alike.  

 

 

 

The debate around this is about fairness and ensuring that pensioners receive the full amount they are entitled to, regardless of where they live. It's a complex issue, but one that many believe needs addressing to uphold the principle of fairness.

Edited 2 hours ago by jori123

[Goodison]

@Keith5588  From what we know you can back the UK establish habitual residence and then leave the UK for a frozen Country and your pension will be reset and frozen at the rate you leave the UK. Nowhere can I find where it says this can be done in a unfrozen Country outside the UK only that if you spend 183 days or more a year there and have your pension paid there you get the current rate of the time for the whole year regardless where you spend the other 182 days. I do know somebody who lived in as Spain where their pension was indexed and then frozen at the rate it was when they left Spain to come to Thailand but their pension had never been frozen. So I am starting to think is returning to the UK and establishing habitual residency the only way you can reset the pension. What we need is somebody who actually went the Philippines with a frozen pension for 185 days or more and came back to Thailand to tell us their story.

Edited 1 hour ago by Goodison