DTV visa extension

[NorthernRyland]

9 hours ago, Tod Daniels said:

I think you got your wires crossed 😮 

I know someone who got one of the first DTV's issued (just after they started handing them out) and he's been in and out of the country over a dozen times on it since his first entry.. Each entry got him a new 180 day entry stamp and he wasn't asked anything by the officer at passport control. 

 

Yes but it's not even been 6 months since it was issued. What remains to be seen is what happens when you get past the 12 month mark.

[DrJack54]

25 minutes ago, NorthernRyland said:

What remains to be seen is what happens when you get past the 12 month mark.

The "soft power" options are a joke.

I can deal with the online remote work. 

Not so much 5 yr visa to lean to make Pad Thai or mess around in a gym.

Will be interesting to see how agents in Thailand assisting with DTV in places such a as Savannakhet will change when eVisa starts 2025

[NorthernRyland]

7 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

The "soft power" options are a joke.

I can deal with the online remote work. 

Not so much 5 yr visa to lean to make Pad Thai or mess around in a gym.

Will be interesting to see how agents in Thailand assisting with DTV in places such a as Savannakhet will change when eVisa starts 2025

It makes more sense when you consider there was no official agreement between the departments. Immigration may think it's a joke too but no one ever asked them. What they did totally turned the whole immigration system upside down and they did this unilaterally (a person mentioned one guy signed off on it)  but that's not the same as going through parliament or something.

 

My brother has basically given up on running a business in Thailand is trying to sell now. One of the primary reason is the hassle he goes through every year and apparently he has to pay bribes just it through do extra documents requested etc... That's how immigration normally is so what you say about soft power makes no sense they would tolerate this.

[ericthai]

5 hours ago, Rob Browder said:

Yes - Thai's jobs lost / businesses closed when immigration blocked their repeat-customers from staying here with "crackdowns" against "coming too often" / "staying too long" - which isn't even a legal-reason to deny-entry..  

I dont know why your friends place closed up as Thailand as been strict on staying in Thailand long term on a tourist visa and visa exempt since the early 2000's, so no new crackdowns on that. 

 

really I dont believe that many people got denied or stop coming to Thailand to be able to close down businesses. 

You do know Thailand has had 30+ million visitors this year. Are you sure Covid wasn't the issue for lack of customers?

 

lastly immigration is doing their jobs. They always say that you need to stay in Thailand on the proper visa. Trying to live in Thailand full time on tourist visa is not the correct visa and is going to be an issue at some point. Yes, immigration can legally deny anyone, a visa doesn't guarantee entry.  

 

[Scouse123]

14 hours ago, Rob Browder said:

That's not "abuse."  The purpose is to bring in longer-staying people, who have at least 500K savings, which weeds-out poor people, who have close-to-zero savings.

 

Anyone caught begging, stealing, working-illegally, etc should be deported and banned for-cause. The type of visa they used to enter is irrelevant.  

 

The 500K funds step reduces the likelihood of that sort of behavior, vs tourist-type entries. Some will undoubtedly financially-wreck themselves with the Thai version of "The stripper really likes me" delusion, and similar - the same as do some retirees, tourists, etc.

 

 

So you are saying a 5-year visa for a two-week cookery course, or a few fillings with a clean and polish at a dentist, is the ' spirit ' of which this visa was created or intended?

 

I differ in my thinking.

 

The retirement extension based on "O" VISA and money in the bank method, ensures you must have 800K for two months before, and three months after the granting of the visa.

 

It can never fall below 400K in the bank outside these months.

 

I don't see any such rule for the 500K on the DTV visa, bearing in mind this money is supposed to be a guarantee they can sustain themselves, particularly on soft power visas, where they don't have provable income.

 

Proof remains to be seen on how this visa is viewed by the authorities down the line.

[Rob Browder]

On 12/17/2024 at 10:06 PM, ericthai said:

... immigration is doing their jobs. They always say that you need to stay in Thailand on the proper visa. Trying to live in Thailand full time on tourist visa is not the correct visa and is going to be an issue at some point. Yes, immigration can legally deny anyone, a visa doesn't guarantee entry

They can "legally deny" - yes - but that isn't what they are doing.   "Staying here too much" on tourist-entries is not a legal reason to deny entry, which is why they then stamp a different false-reason in the passport, to cover their tracks. 

 

If there is any doubt as to the motivating-reason for this behavior, note they have agent-services lined-up to cash in on what they are doing.  Annual-extensions are similar - see the agent, and the "problems" go away. 

 

As long as folks don't mistakenly think immigration are "just doing their job," then they can budget and plan to deal with the real-world situation, and stay here with few problems.  Being naive, and believing "following the law" is enough, and things can end badly. 

[Rob Browder]

On 12/18/2024 at 6:17 AM, Scouse123 said:

So you are saying a 5-year visa for a two-week cookery course, or a few fillings with a clean and polish at a dentist, is the ' spirit ' of which this visa was created or intended?

 

I differ in my thinking.

 

The retirement extension based on "O" VISA and money in the bank method, ensures you must have 800K for two months before, and three months after the granting of the visa.

Yes, the purpose was getting people who were spending their money in other countries, where immigration do not hassle people on tourist-entries, to stay in Thailand, instead.  Why else make it 5 years for "soft power" options?  Why push them out to spend their money in Cambodia, instead of Thailand?  Add "e-gate" entry, and Immigration will be cut out of the loop (to their consternation - no agent-money with "pre-screened" / "vip" entry).

 

The money-rules are silly, when dealing with people who have no reason to work illegally for a tiny-fraction of the min-wage in their home country, and have no access to Thai welfare in any form.  "Running out of money" is a self-correcting problem.  The rare oddball who is caught sleeping rough can easily be rounded-up and deported - one case among tens of thousands.  Those money-rules only exist to create agent-business.

[Rob Browder]

On 12/17/2024 at 6:56 PM, NorthernRyland said:

This begs the question, why have the 5 year elite visa? Why make retirees, married people and business do annual extensions anymore? 

The "elite visa" is via a private company, who pay off immigration with part of the money. 

The annual extensions should be scrapped - ideally, would be like an online 90-day report, and electronically pay the fee.  In Laos/Cambodia, it's ~$350-USD / year - a bit more if under retirement-age - no hoops except the money, which also proves you are not destitute.

[bigt3116]

7 hours ago, Rob Browder said:

The "elite visa" is via a private company, who pay off immigration with part of the money. 

The annual extensions should be scrapped - ideally, would be like an online 90-day report, and electronically pay the fee.  In Laos/Cambodia, it's ~$350-USD / year - a bit more if under retirement-age - no hoops except the money, which also proves you are not destitute.

 

The Thailand Elite Visa program is managed by Thailand Privilege Card Co., Ltd. (TPC), a state-owned enterprise under the supervision of the Tourism Authority of Thailand (TAT). 

[ericthai]

23 hours ago, Rob Browder said:

They can "legally deny" - yes - but that isn't what they are doing.   "Staying here too much" on tourist-entries is not a legal reason to deny entry, which is why they then stamp a different false-reason in the passport, to cover their tracks. 

 

If there is any doubt as to the motivating-reason for this behavior, note they have agent-services lined-up to cash in on what they are doing.  Annual-extensions are similar - see the agent, and the "problems" go away. 

 

As long as folks don't mistakenly think immigration are "just doing their job," then they can budget and plan to deal with the real-world situation, and stay here with few problems.  Being naive, and believing "following the law" is enough, and things can end badly. 

This isn't what I asked, you said that you had Thai friends that lost their business due to immigration denying people entry and what immigration is doing is illegal. 

 

As I said what immigration is doing is not illegal, they will ask for onward ticket, see cash, etc if you dont have any of these they will refuse you entry, all valid, nothing to do with covering their tracks, it's procedure. 

 

But this isn't the point, I asked how did this effect your Thai friends in loosing their business due to immigration?  As I dont believe that many people are turned away. This isn't  something new immigration is doing, it's been going on for decades.  Meanwhile Thailand keeps hitting new record highs for tourist numbers.

 

[bigt3116]

4 hours ago, ericthai said:

As I said what immigration is doing is not illegal, they will ask for onward ticket, see cash, etc if you dont have any of these they will refuse you entry, all valid, nothing to do with covering their tracks, it's procedure. 

 

Section 12 of the Immigration act does not mention proof of onward travel, so if you were denied entry due to that, it would indeed be illegal.

 

Also, it is the airlines that ask for proof of onward travel, not immigration.

[Phillip9]

15 minutes ago, bigt3116 said:

Also, it is the airlines that ask for proof of onward travel, not immigration.

 

Immigration certainly can ask for an onward ticket.  They routinely ask my filipina gf to show her onward ticket when entering by both land or air.  Those of us with first world passports are not normally asked for it, but I suspect it is quite common that immigration asks people with third world passports if they have an onward ticket.

[Briggsy]

11 hours ago, ericthai said:

As I said what immigration is doing is not illegal, they will ask for onward ticket, see cash, etc if you dont have any of these they will refuse you entry, all valid, nothing to do with covering their tracks, it's procedure. 

In my case, they definitely did not ask to see onward ticket or cash. Entry was immediately refused based on history of stays in Thailand (no visa exempts, I should add). The denial stamp was for both "no appropriate means of supporting oneself" and "suspecting of illegal work in the kingdom". Both of these reasons were stamped in my passport with no investigation, no evidence and were palpably untrue. I had loads of cash on me, cash in a Thai bank account, etc. and was not working in Thailand.

 

So, the impression you seem to be under that Immigration actually stamp true reasons for denial of entry in your passport is both demonstrably false and factually wrong. They are using the 2 reasons stated above as "catch-all" reasons to provide a veneer of legal cover for themselves.

[DrJack54]

Off topic post along with reply removed 

[Chalky0w]

10 hours ago, Briggsy said:

In my case, they definitely did not ask to see onward ticket or cash. Entry was immediately refused based on history of stays in Thailand (no visa exempts, I should add). The denial stamp was for both "no appropriate means of supporting oneself" and "suspecting of illegal work in the kingdom". Both of these reasons were stamped in my passport with no investigation, no evidence and were palpably untrue. I had loads of cash on me, cash in a Thai bank account, etc. and was not working in Thailand.

 

So, the impression you seem to be under that Immigration actually stamp true reasons for denial of entry in your passport is both demonstrably false and factually wrong. They are using the 2 reasons stated above as "catch-all" reasons to provide a veneer of legal cover for themselves.

This is concerning. I’ve had a few METVs and no problems but moved to DTV now.
 

On the other thread there is a video that shows the MFA consider the visa as just “initial screening” and IO get the final say on entry or extension.
 

Would you mind sharing your history?

- Do you just bounce in/out or have holidays? 

- Do you only go to low-cost neighbouring countries or trips to Singapore, Japan, Korea?

- Do you go to and stay in home country?

 

Sorry for the questions but I’m interested in possible reasons why IO would reject if you had a visa.

[Briggsy]

7 hours ago, Chalky0w said:

Would you mind sharing your history?

- Do you just bounce in/out or have holidays? 

- Do you only go to low-cost neighbouring countries or trips to Singapore, Japan, Korea?

- Do you go to and stay in home country?

 

Sorry for the questions but I’m interested in possible reasons why IO would reject if you had a visa.

I was on a 6-monthly cycle. 4.5 months in, 1.5 months out on METV's. To achieve the 4.5 months in, I did one border bounce and one extension. That gave me 60 + 60 + 30. I would then get a new METV from the UK.

Each year I went back to the UK for 3 months in total.

I assume the 75% of my time in Thailand on tourist visas was the issue. This was not overtly stated by the IO. "This time mai pen rai. Next time get a proper visa." were his words.

 

Since I am still doing the same 75% of time in Thailand on a DTV, I expect the same to happen at some point.

[Chalky0w]

23 hours ago, Briggsy said:

The denial stamp was for both "no appropriate means of supporting oneself" and "suspecting of illegal work in the kingdom".

 

 

 

5 hours ago, Briggsy said:

This was not overtly stated by the IO. "This time mai pen rai. Next time get a proper visa." were his words.

Hmm, appreciate the reply but in the first entry you were denied and in second entry you say you were warned.  If genuine then I apologise but something doesn’t add up! Are you telling a Christmas fairytale? 😉

[Briggsy]

2 hours ago, Chalky0w said:

 

 

 

Hmm, appreciate the reply but in the first entry you were denied and in second entry you say you were warned.  If genuine then I apologise but something doesn’t add up! Are you telling a Christmas fairytale? 😉

You have totally misunderstood.

 

I was denied entry.

 

The supervising IO had such mangled English that what sounded like a warning was in fact a denial of entry. When he said "This time mai pen rai. Next time get a proper visa," he then led me and some Russian dude to the underground detention centre at the airport and we were processed out of the country.

 

Mate, I am taking a lot of time and effort to try and tell people what happens and has happened to me, specifically in response to your request. This is to help other people and you. It is not very nice of you to accuse me of lying.

[Rob Browder]

On 12/25/2024 at 1:31 AM, ericthai said:

This isn't what I asked, you said that you had Thai friends that lost their business due to immigration denying people entry and what immigration is doing is illegal. 

 

As I said what immigration is doing is not illegal, they will ask for onward ticket, see cash, etc if you dont have any of these they will refuse you entry, all valid, nothing to do with covering their tracks, it's procedure. 

 

But this isn't the point, I asked how did this effect your Thai friends in loosing their business due to immigration?  As I dont believe that many people are turned away. This isn't  something new immigration is doing, it's been going on for decades.  Meanwhile Thailand keeps hitting new record highs for tourist numbers.

Immigration have denied-entry to those with all the required by law items - documented many, many times on this and prior version of this forum.  They then "say" they are denying for "in Thailand too long / much" - which is not a legal reason to deny-entry - then they "stamp" that you didn't have the money (covering tracks) - even when you do. 

 

If you weren't around at the time, the "show the money only in cash" bit was introduced - then, people started carrying the unneeded cash (I bought travelers checks for this purpose) - and then, Immigration stopped asking to see it, and denied entry regardless - would wave their hands if you tried to show them you had all the requirements.

 

How did it affect Thais I know?  Lost jobs and near-zero tips - tips being far more than the salary when they had Western customers in restaurants.  Also consider that the "zero-baht" and other "tour group" types are literally "bussed" to specific venues.  In their short "free / recess" breaks from the group, they tend to go to 7/11 for their "shopping."  The result is a much lower ratio of Thai-employees per-tourist, vs Western tourists, who go to various shops, restaurants, etc on their own - and spent considerably more per-capita. 

 

Denying entry to people from higher-wage nations did start some years ago, is correct - and, just coincidentally, right after the "elite visa" was introduced under Thaksin.  People often blame Prayut, but he didn't start it.  There have been many variations on "crackdowns" over the years, with each iteration harming Thais working the tourist-sector.  As a result of these practices, before coming here, I was warned against coming to Thailand by various expats I encountered from South America to Europe.  Due to their insatiable greed, Thailand-Immigration has developed a nasty reputation with millions of former and potential visitors.

[Rob Browder]

On 12/26/2024 at 3:15 PM, Briggsy said:

Mate, I am taking a lot of time and effort to try and tell people what happens and has happened to me, specifically in response to your request. This is to help other people and you. It is not very nice of you to accuse me of lying.

This is a common tactic on this forum - for many years.  It's a common pattern in disinformation - first deny it's happening, then later admit it is, and always was, but claim it is really a "good" thing. 

 

Preferring illusions to reality has been documented since Plato - a "feature" of the majority of people.  Even when it happens to them, many have a Stockholm-Syndrome type response - their deference to "authority" suppressing even their own direct-experience.

 

Best to just ignore such talk - and thank you for posting real-world situation, so people can avoid the same pitfalls.

[Chalky0w]

20 hours ago, Rob Browder said:

This is a common tactic on this forum - for many years.  It's a common pattern in disinformation - first deny it's happening, then later admit it is, and always was, but claim it is really a "good" thing. 

 

Preferring illusions to reality has been documented since Plato - a "feature" of the majority of people.  Even when it happens to them, many have a Stockholm-Syndrome type response - their deference to "authority" suppressing even their own direct-experience.

 

Best to just ignore such talk - and thank you for posting real-world situation, so people can avoid the same pitfalls.

 

Was this directed at me?

 

I’m certainly not naive enough to believe immigration have much integrity and wouldn’t deny entry / wouldn’t falsify records for their own reasons.

 

I’m also not naive enough to believe every negative story on the internet about immigration. Authors may make things up for giggles or for example they may be connected to the assisted entry / border bounce companies.

 

I apologised in advance to Briggsy if I’d misunderstood the apparent contradictions between their posts and the apology still stands if their account is genuine.

[Briggsy]

8 minutes ago, Chalky0w said:

I apologised in advance to Briggsy if I’d misunderstood the apparent contradictions between their posts and the apology still stands if their account is genuine.

There is no 'if'. My account is genuine.

[raz0r21]

On 12/26/2024 at 6:53 AM, Briggsy said:

I was on a 6-monthly cycle. 4.5 months in, 1.5 months out on METV's. To achieve the 4.5 months in, I did one border bounce and one extension. That gave me 60 + 60 + 30. I would then get a new METV from the UK.

Each year I went back to the UK for 3 months in total.

I assume the 75% of my time in Thailand on tourist visas was the issue. This was not overtly stated by the IO. "This time mai pen rai. Next time get a proper visa." were his words.

 

Since I am still doing the same 75% of time in Thailand on a DTV, I expect the same to happen at some point.

 

I just stumbled upon this video from Immigration Division 2 and their Instagram channel: (https://www.instagram.com/p/DEEjJ0TSCdm/)

 

In the video they actually push for the DTV visa, which is the first I have seen from any official channel so far....instead of using multiple exempts or tourist visas. I put a screenshot of it here aswell.

 

 

[Briggsy]

@raz0r21

 

Well, from that video, it does seem as if DTV's are now considered as one of the "right types of visas" to stay here for a long time. If so, denial of entry reports should for DTV holders should be few and far between.

 

Let us see what unfolds over the first 5 years of the DTV.

[ukrules]

On 12/15/2024 at 7:32 PM, NorthernRyland said:

What I heard though is that the ministry of the interior (which is "immigration"?) has made no comments on this new visa and stated clearly how/if it can be extended.

 

Don't worry, they receive their orders from the elected government and do what they are told - if they don't like it or don't do their job then they get fired and replaced.