How Has Thailand’s New Income Tax Law Affected Your Spending Habits?

[Airalee]

8 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

 

I don't get this wanting something in return for paying tax. Getting something for paying into say the Social Security fund every month is similar to paying National Insurance contributions in the UK, it's a club where you make contributions and you get something in return and that is different from personal income tax.  But taxes in most countries, pay for the infrastructure or fabric that everyone uses or exists for the benefit of everyone, I also don't think it's right that people are able to move from their home country where tax is medium/high, to another country that is poorer where tax collection is low and escape tax completely in the process.

 

Many argue that VAT is a tax that everyone pays and that is fair, so why not increase the VAT rate? I think VAT puts the poor at a disadvantage whilst the wealthy  can easily afford any increase so I don't see a VAT increase as fair, not unless the rest of the tax system is fully implemented and fully operational.

 

I think there's a price to be paid for living in any country and that is to become a part of their tax system. Changing countries to escape tax takes things in the wrong direction and it seems to me that is the problem the global tax system is trying to fix.......something else I agree with in principle.

 

BTW this is not a competition, I thought we were debating an issue, not competing against each other for points!

You really seem to want to pay taxes with no benefits.   You’re not playing “devils advocate”.  You’re being a shill.  Are you on the payroll?  Part of the “fabric” that the taxes pay here is healthcare.  I’m not interested in hearing what you pay or don’t pay in the UK.

 

The whole point of paying taxes is to get some sort of benefit.  Not just to be a cash cow for a government.  I don’t live here for free.  I pay more in taxes with the VAT than most Thais.

 

No taxation without representation.

[chiang mai]

17 minutes ago, Airalee said:

You really seem to want to pay taxes with no benefits.   You’re not playing “devils advocate”.  You’re being a shill.  Are you on the payroll?  Part of the “fabric” that the taxes pay here is healthcare.  I’m not interested in hearing what you pay or don’t pay in the UK.

 

The whole point of paying taxes is to get some sort of benefit.  Not just to be a cash cow for a government.  I don’t live here for free.  I pay more in taxes with the VAT than most Thais.

 

No taxation without representation.

I haven't said what I want, I've only said what I think is right. And no, I don't work for the government or the Revenue, you dreamed that up.

 

Apparently you don't know how to debate or simply don't want to.......so, goodbye.

[georgegeorgia]

On 12/19/2024 at 12:09 AM, anchadian said:

You didn't mention this in your initial post ', so anything I bring in has already had substantial tax paid in Australia' which now puts a different light on your foreign income although I believe that obtaining a TIN is a must, whether or not you file a tax return.

 

We'll have to wait and see what transpires.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Can the mods please stop this poster from highlighting his posts !!!

 

[bkk6060]

Those that use an agent should be fine.

The agency/bank actually puts the 800k in the account for a short time.  No assessable income is used for this transaction.

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, bkk6060 said:

Those that use an agent should be fine.

The agency/bank actually puts the 800k in the account for a short time.  No assessable income is used for this transaction.

So how did the person qualify for the visa, are they supposed to explain to the TRD they used an illegal practise to obtain their visa hence there's no tax to pay? That's a bit like saying you have an alibi for the robbery, you were busy committing murder at the time.

[snowybob]

On 12/18/2024 at 8:14 PM, RSD1 said:

 

Anyone who has a pink card already has a Thai TIN whether they like it or not. The 13 digit ID number on the pink card is also your TIN.

Not necessarily, my TIN is different to my Pink ID number

[mikebell]

On 12/18/2024 at 6:27 PM, SoCal1990 said:

I'll be bringing in the minimum, I've even started paying using contactless with UK cards and Wise card, I'll also use Wise to pay larger amounts, common fees, maybe even much larger purchases 

I bring my money in through Wise at 5000 UKP every couple of months.  How does one get a Wise card?  How much does one pay to use this card per transaction?

I also heard that UK Government pensions (like teachers/firemen) are exempt from Thai tax; is this true?

[chiang mai]

5 minutes ago, mikebell said:

I bring my money in through Wise at 5000 UKP every couple of months.  How does one get a Wise card?  How much does one pay to use this card per transaction?

I also heard that UK Government pensions (like teachers/firemen) are exempt from Thai tax; is this true?

That's correct, it is exempt 

 

[mikebell]

4 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

That's correct, it is exempt 

 

Thanks for your speedy reply.  Where can I find this information in case I need to quote it?

[chiang mai]

Just now, mikebell said:

Thanks for your speedy reply.  Where can I find this information in case I need to quote it?

In the UK/Thai DTA, at the TRD site, perhaps somebody will kindly provide a link.

[Njoku]

On 12/18/2024 at 5:37 PM, scubascuba3 said:

I'll be bringing in the minimum, I've even started paying using contactless with UK cards and Wise card, I'll also use Wise to pay larger amounts, common fees, maybe even much larger purchases 

Dont advertise how you are going to do it, big brother is watching and at some point start closing loop holes you freely gave up at the beginning.

[Njoku]

On 12/18/2024 at 7:28 PM, RSD1 said:

Speaking of Wise, they caused me an embarrassing situation today and a big waste of time. I paid for something in a shop to the shop's Thai business bank account. Money shows in the app that it has been delivered. It was even transferred from Wise using the same bank as the shop. So it was a total in bank transfer. Money doesn't show up in their account though. Then the shop spent an hour on the phone with their bank trying to locate the missing payment. Eventually I gave up because I was getting tired of the awkward situation and so I paid the shop a second time using a local bank transfer so that I could leave the shop and I asked them to refund the second payment to me once they receive the Wise payment. When I left the shop I planned to get in touch with Wise once I got home. After I was at home, I rechecked the app and now the payment showed up with a different status and that the shop would be receiving the payment in their bank account within another 12 minutes. I was planning to call the shop and ask them to please recheck their account balance again, but then the shop messaged me to tell me they got the money and would be refunding my local bank transfer to me. It all worked out fine in the end, but it was a huge waste of my time and the shop girl's time and a somewhat stressful situation, not to mention I ended up making the payment twice as I didn't feel comfortable leaving the shop without knowing that they had surely received payment from me. This made me think twice about using Wise to transfer any business payments ever again in the future that need to be received within a timely manner. The app did tell me the funds would arrive in seconds when I initiated the transfer and then gave me confirmation that the money was successfully in their account. This whole Wise screw up sent me on a wild goose chase, when in reality the shop didn't receive the money from Wise until about 3 hours later and not within seconds as they promised. A strong word to the Wise!

You must have been doing a transfer, if you used the card in wallet (tap) or physical card the payment is instant, only when ive done a transfer ie to my BKK bank account or my partner can there be a hold up.

[Njoku]

On 12/18/2024 at 8:14 PM, RSD1 said:

 

Anyone who has a pink card already has a Thai TIN whether they like it or not. The 13 digit ID number on the pink card is also your TIN.

if thats the case they never told me that....love the way they only ever give you enough information to get to the next step but never enough for the journey 

[Njoku]

On 12/18/2024 at 9:10 PM, BangkokBernie said:

Thank you, but as I said in my OP, the purpose of this topic is to discuss changes in spending habits as a result of the changes to the Thai tax laws that will effect foreigners residing in Thailand.
 

Anyone's individual tax situation is only anecdotal. Also, it remains to be seen how much of people's taxes already paid overseas on the imported money will actually get applied to their tax liabilities in Thailand under any double taxation treaties.
 

I anticipate a number of situations where the TRD can't understand the contents of the documents that foreigners are presenting as evidence of tax already paid overseas and, thus won't accept them. 

Yep totally agree, that one where your living off pensions keeping to the limit for tax purposes but say bought a car here where the money came out of your online saver from back home, and have proof like in a bank statement showing total amount and more from before the end of 2023, the tax people wouldn't be able to verify its legit and the hoops they will likely make you go through to get it verified and still knock it on the head....We know how inflexible Thais can be dont we?

[Njoku]

On 12/19/2024 at 7:01 AM, 1FinickyOne said:

I thought the tax was on profits from the current year. This cannot be calculated during the current year. The money that I have brought over is long time savings that was earned many years ago and as I understand it, is not subject to tax. 

And you will need to prove that when at some point in time you lodge a tax return, the answer is simple, savings, proving it could be much more difficult, providing bank statements might not be enough they may ask you for your overseas bank to verify what you claim. 

[gk10012001]

Well it has not directly affected my spending yet, but it has slowed down my retirement plans for going to Thailand.  Unless I see some concrete examples soon, that demonstrate no additional paperwork or sword of Damocles awaiting out there for long term stays, there is no way I will be spending 180 days or more in Thailand a year as I always had planned as I am semi retired now.

[1FinickyOne]

26 minutes ago, Njoku said:

And you will need to prove that when at some point in time you lodge a tax return, the answer is simple, savings, proving it could be much more difficult, providing bank statements might not be enough they may ask you for your overseas bank to verify what you claim. 

And how would that be a problem? Everything I have and my tax returns are easily available.... 

[Njoku]

On 12/19/2024 at 11:23 AM, BangkokBernie said:

Reading all the comments so far on my OP has been really interesting, thank you.
 

It has confirmed my suspicions that people are either using untraceable overseas payment methods for local purchases, spending less in Thailand in general and/or spending less time physically in Thailand as a result of the Thai taxation announcements that were made last year. Meaning that, very few foreigners are planning on paying any income tax to the Thai government at all under this new tax regime.

 

Although we know that the government doesn’t give a toss if a couple hundred thousand foreigners don't embrace this new tax policy because of the millions of tourists that are now coming back in again, but that is very shortsighted of them. A tourist spends money here for a week or two and doesn't contribute much whereas long-term residents need to spend money here 52 weeks a year, which does add up, even if it's not grand amounts of spending. In addition, those tourist dollars are not something that's guaranteed for the future, especially if the Indians or the Chinese change their mind about Thailand, whereas long-term residents can't avoid spending money in Thailand once they are living here full time. 

 

Well, as we said before, hopefully they eventually rethink all of this when they realize it isn't the big money maker they were hoping for, nor is it worth all the additional administrative hassles and burdens placed on their government systems. But it always takes time for the dumb eyed deers to figure out that they are simply dumb ideas. 

You are misguided thinking expats changing spending habits will be detrimental to Thailand and its economy, once if at all its implemented its back to normal after a year or two, might keep a few pensioners in there home country but most will see it as just another requirement. 

 

The tourists are what they are really after, as for untraceable overseas payment methods, give it time, if they think its worth the effort they will find a way,  you would be silly to think they haven't thought that expats would seek alternative methods. 

 

Some say you do others say you dont need to apply for a TIN, well again expats are the easiest people in the country to get them to jump, simply they know they have ways to make you the expat living in there country to comply to there requirements, they do it to you now with the reems of paper work to apply for an AO, certificate of residency every time you want to do something of note, the 90 day reporting, foolish to think that maybe one day they wont make it necessary for you to supply the last tax report when you apply for an extension, keep dreaming flat earthers.

 

Ive not really needed to change much in spending habits but yes ive changed, I would mostly be borderline or pay a few bucks in tax, and I aim to not pay any, own my condo have a late model car and a new bike so all my big spending is over, in future just bring in the base amount to sit under the tax free threshold, any overseas travel etc use my home country credit card and pay for airline tickets ect that way.

[Njoku]

11 minutes ago, 1FinickyOne said:

And how would that be a problem? Everything I have and my tax returns are easily available.... 

Then its easy for you, for me to phone my Australian bank from Thailand, put on hold for 20 min then go through something there never heard of and get them to help me comply could prove somewhat of a challenge, of course id expect them to supply proof, its the other end will they accept anything you give them?

[BangkokHank]

The AMOUNT that I spent this year didn't change as a result of the new tax situation. What DID change, though, is WHERE I spent it. This year, I spent half of my time and money outside of Thailand - despite having lived in Thailand for decades. It was an easy calculation for me: The amount of taxes I would have had to pay as a tax resident far exceeded the cost of traveling outside of Thailand for six months. So Vietnam and Cambodia are the beneficiaries of Thailand's ridiculous attempt to tax inward remittances without providing any benefits in exchange.

[1FinickyOne]

34 minutes ago, Njoku said:

Then its easy for you, for me to phone my Australian bank from Thailand, put on hold for 20 min then go through something there never heard of and get them to help me comply could prove somewhat of a challenge, of course id expect them to supply proof, its the other end will they accept anything you give them?

I have an accountant who could easily take care of their questions and have a Vice President at the bank who could also easily verify... both easily contacted via email... 

 

I've never worried taxes - the more I need to pay, it means that I made more.

[The Cyclist]

3 hours ago, mikebell said:

Thanks for your speedy reply.  Where can I find this information in case I need to quote it?

 

3 hours ago, chiang mai said:

In the UK/Thai DTA, at the TRD site, perhaps somebody will kindly provide a link.

 

I wonder how many times this has been posted

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a80bddc40f0b623026953eb/uk-thailand-dtc180281_-_in_force.pdf

 

@mikebell

 

If you want to really get into the nitty-gritty, somewhere on the UKGov website is a big list of all the pensions that are considered Government Pensions.

[pchansmorn]

On 12/18/2024 at 7:37 PM, G Rex said:

 

I am retired , living off my savings , so anything I bring in has already had substantial tax paid in Australia - so - no - I don't think it would come to that!

I cannot be bothered dealing with the local tax officials - so will not be doing so unless absolutely necessary.

Jail!! 555 

I pay takes in the US so am not paying double taxes in Thailand too. 

[samtam]

On 12/19/2024 at 11:07 AM, ernji said:

 

If you ever visit Cambodia consider opening an account at a bank there, its really easy even on a tourist visa, then transfer money from your home country to the USD account (they will open you both a KHR and USD one) using a service such as Wise. Pull out the USD in cash and go to one of the many money changers over there to buy THB cash, from what I understand a lot of dirty money flows in that way so they are happy to sell that THB at a better rate than you will get in Thailand, then just bring it in here making sure you are under the limit that you have to declare to customs (currently USD $20,000 I think). Then you have THB cash here and Thailand has no record of it entering. I've done it twice already and it won't be the last time as its so close and not a bad place to visit. Just a thought.

 

How much does it cost you to go in and out of Cambodia to effect these cash transfers?

 

 

On 12/19/2024 at 10:44 AM, Airalee said:

Agreed….and when I popped back into Thailand for a few days in October to renew my 1 year extension I told immigration that I would be now spending time outside of Thailand and might not even be seeing them in the future as there is no real need for an extension based on retirement and it will be nice to close out my bank accounts in Thailand and bring all the money back to the US where I can actually get some interest on my funds (which are a lot more than the 800k)

 

Sad to say, but I suspect IMM was not remotely interested; plenty of opening doors after your's closes.

 

 

On 12/19/2024 at 11:17 AM, LittleBear57 said:

Not really spending any less on a daily basis. Needed a new car and gifted the money to my wife who purchased it in her name. Paid for the families Healthcare insurance on my UK credit card, not mine though as I believe that is tax deductible.  Gifted my daughter the money for her expensive dental brace. When she hopefully goes to university I will gift her her accomodation fees and course fees if they are not tax deductible. 

I have a military pension as well as the UK state pension. I read somewhere that military pensions in Thailand are not taxable,  don't know if that's true or not.

Went to our local tax office about getting g a TIN no. and they didn't think I'd have to pay tax. They would give me a number if I wanted one, but suggested I wait and see what happens with immigration. Anyone renewed their visa extension recently?

 

As the need to file a tax return, (if you qualify) doesn't take effect until 1 January, and end on 31 March 2025, IMM are not going to be asking for them yet, if ever.

 

 

On 12/19/2024 at 8:15 PM, chiang mai said:

I suspect the revenue they will gain from taxing those Thai tax evaders, will far outrip any losses from foriegners who leave.

 

Why not exclude foreigners? Why should they?

 

See below.

On 12/20/2024 at 4:12 AM, chiang mai said:

Playing devils advocate:

 

If foreigners were excluded, wouldn't that discriminate against Thai people and put them at a financial disadvantage? I wonder how we might feel if this was our home country and the government announced that foreigners wouldn't be taxed but we would! I'm pretty sure in that case I'd be very unhappy.

 

 

 

I see you've answered this. But yes, I think taxpayers expect some more tangible benefit (like subsidised healthcare or the like), rather than just the use of roads, safety-questionable pavements etc. Going out the door here in Bangkok costs a fortune. Perhaps better fiscal management, and a system not with built in corruption might make it more palatable; I don't expect to see a clean transparent system in my lifetime. Corruption is Thainess at its finest - it's Thainess Tax. 

[Airalee]

1 hour ago, pchansmorn said:

I pay takes in the US so am not paying double taxes in Thailand too. 

If you run the numbers (as a US taxpayer) with a 30k income from dividends/interest and then add 50k in long term capital gains….it’s actually quite a bit more than double taxes.  Closer to triple and it only goes up from there.

[jayboy]

6 hours ago, snowybob said:

Not necessarily, my TIN is different to my Pink ID number

 

And even when it is the same number, as in my case, it is not one's TIN until it has been processed by the RD.

[flexomike]

6 hours ago, Njoku said:

if thats the case they never told me that....love the way they only ever give you enough information to get to the next step but never enough for the journey 

It is only your TIN if you activate it with the revenue department

[MJCM]

We went from spending around 100k a Month to around 20-40k and it suits us.

I was planning on staying out of LOS for 6+ months this year but an Eye Diseases, still undergoing treatment at Rutnin Eye Hospital prevented that. *insurance is paying for that in case someone wonders*

[chiang mai]

7 hours ago, Njoku said:

if thats the case they never told me that....love the way they only ever give you enough information to get to the next step but never enough for the journey 

It depends on when you obtained your pink card, the numbers on it changed from 10 digits to 13 digits at some point and that  rendered the old cards invalid as tax ID's. Also, is the new 13 digit number, it must first be activated as a tax ID, it's not automatic.

[saintdomingo]

On 12/19/2024 at 5:28 AM, chiang mai said:

Interpretation of the Thai tax rules is not the issue that I commented upon, the accuracy and appropriateness of your opening statement was. What you wrote was incorrect and set the stage of understanding for many people, inaccurately and inappropriately.

 

"the Thai government put a new law into affect that created a personal income tax on all cash transfers into Thailand which applies to all residents of Thailand",

 

I appreciate that you subsequently asked a question but you framed or preceded it with false information and not every reader is up to speed or aware of the issue.

Residents.? So you have to have permanent residence then.