Revenue Department boss calls on tax residents in Thailand to file 2024 returns by March 31

[The Cyclist]

5 minutes ago, JimGant said:

There's a difference?

 

You cannot see the difference ?
 

Did you manage to get an answer on yesterday's question on Retiree Alien Residents n the US ( the equivalent of Retiree Thai Tax Residents ) and whether they would have to file a tax declaration in the US ?
 

Why do you think Thailand should be any different ?

[freedomnow]

If this move gets links to a downturn in condo buying it would be reversed.

 

They reverse every bloody rule in the country..can't stop tampering 365 with the rules.

Its farsical.

[InlandSea]

7 minutes ago, freedomnow said:

If this move gets links to a downturn in condo buying it would be reversed.

 

They reverse every bloody rule in the country..can't stop tampering 365 with the rules.

Its farsical.

T.I.T.

[JimGant]

18 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

Did you manage to get an answer on yesterday's question on Retiree Alien Residents n the US ( the equivalent of Retiree Thai Tax Residents ) and whether they would have to file a tax declaration in the US ?

Not exactly sure where you're going with this..... A Thai citizen, residing in the US, is subject to US taxes on his worldwide income, has to file a 1040 US tax return, but can avail himself of all the deductions and other amenities afforded to US citizens. But, he is also covered by the US-Thai DTA -- so there are some incomes, like his Thai govt pension, not subject to US taxes. Thus, you might say, "non assessable." Pretty much a carbon copy of how a US Thai tax resident is treated is treated in Thailand.

 

So, excuse my ignorance -- but what was your point in bringing this up?

[oldcpu]

1 hour ago, JimGant said:

Adherence to thresholds doesn't apply to non assessable income. Or, am I missing something?

 

That's part of my disappointment with the Siam-legal  examples. They should cover such from a tax payment, tax exemption, tax assessability, and tax submission requirement perspective.  They do none of that.

[KhunHeineken]

1 hour ago, oldcpu said:

My cynical speculation? They don't want to clarify such as they wish to drum up business from people in that category.  But I am also possibly too cynical.

Isn't that what it's all about?  The Thai government drums up some business, which then has a flow on effect?  Call me cynical as well. 

[The Cyclist]

55 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Not exactly sure where you're going with this..... A Thai citizen, residing in the US,

 

I see your confusion, I didn't mention Thai Citizens. I did say retiree, Resident Aliens.

 

55 minutes ago, JimGant said:

residing in the US, is subject to US taxes on his worldwide income, has to file a 1040 US tax return

 

Regardless of Nationality, has to file a tax return on  their worldwide income is the important part.

 

So why should Thailand be any different ?
 

And then the following can be applied

 

55 minutes ago, JimGant said:

But, he is also covered by the US-Thai DTA -- so there are some incomes, like his Thai govt pension, not subject to US taxes.

 

Although they have to be declared.

 

Yet, you appear to have an issue with Thailand doing exactly the same.

[MikeN]

20 hours ago, oldcpu said:

 

 

2. Any pension paid to an individual in respect of services rendered in the discharge of government functions to one of the Contracting States (ie Australia) .... shall be taxable only in that State ( i.e. Australia).  

 

Military service is IMHO considered Government Service.  The noted DTA goes on to note thou, if one is a citizen of Thailand (and still managed to get this Australian pension), then the Australian government service pension would in that case be taxable in Thailand.

 

Is your wife Thai ?  .... If so, does she get your Australia pension when you pass away if she survives you?  If so, she may have to pay tax in Thailand on such (and not to Australia) in the sad/unfortunate case if you were to pass away.

 

I could be wrong in the above, but this is how this looks to me (as noted, I was curious - I have a number of Australian friends).

Yes, when I go up the crematorium chimney in a puff of smoke she would get two thirds of my pension (after unravelling miles of red tape). It is still paid as a military pension so as she is a citizen and resident of Thailand that DTA exemption would apply and would have to pay tax here... well, file a tax return at least. I don't think my pension will increase to a taxable level after deductions! And more red tape to make sure it isn't taxed in Australia. 

[KhunHeineken]

45 minutes ago, MikeN said:

Yes, when I go up the crematorium chimney in a puff of smoke she would get two thirds of my pension (after unravelling miles of red tape). It is still paid as a military pension so as she is a citizen and resident of Thailand that DTA exemption would apply and would have to pay tax here..

Have you looked into this?

 

You are the one that performed the government service, not her.  Are you sure the widow's pension is covered by the DTA?   

[JimGant]

2 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

Although they have to be declared.

 

Yet, you appear to have an issue with Thailand doing exactly the same.

This is where I lose you -- why do they have to be declared?. If the DTA says a certain type of income is taxable exclusively by country A, then that is solely where it needs to be mentioned in a tax return. Country B need never know about this income -- thus never needing its inclusion in a country B tax return.

 

Again, I'm not sure where you're going with this ---- Please elaborate. Thank you.

[KhunHeineken]

24 minutes ago, JimGant said:

This is where I lose you -- why do they have to be declared?. If the DTA says a certain type of income is taxable exclusively by country A, then that is solely where it needs to be mentioned in a tax return. Country B need never know about this income -- thus never needing its inclusion in a country B tax return.

 

Again, I'm not sure where you're going with this ---- Please elaborate. Thank you.

Same argument for the same long debate.

 

How does Country B know the source of income is covered under the DTA unless you file and declare the exact source of income, in which Country B will then not tax because it's covered under the DTA? 

[JimGant]

13 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

How does Country B know the source of income is covered under the DTA unless you file and declare the exact source of income, in which Country B will then not tax because it's covered under the DTA? 

Huh? Let country B read the DTA to see what income isn't coming their way for taxation. Since they can't tax this income, why do they have to know about it?

[KhunHeineken]

10 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Huh? Let country B read the DTA to see what income isn't coming their way for taxation. Since they can't tax this income, why do they have to know about it?

Well, geez, let me think about that for a moment. 

 

Country B's banking system, which is regulated, receives remittances into your account.  Those remittances could be from yourself, as you transfer your own pension, or they could be profits from a share portfolio, income from a rental property, income from a business you own in your home country etc etc. 

 

How does Country B know the source of the income, thus remittances, unless you file and declare?  Yes, I know, rocket science. 

[JimGant]

12 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

How does Country B know the source of the income, thus remittances, unless you file and declare?

Well, if those remittances are taxable, per DTA by Thailand, and if they exceed those 60/120/220 filing thresholds -- they'll hear about them in my tax filing. All those other remittances, because the DTA says they're not taxable, or because Por 162 exempts them -- will be invisible to TRD, since no need to declare them on a tax return. There is no requirement to provide TRD with data on remitted income that is not assessable.

[oldcpu]

4 hours ago, MikeN said:

Yes, when I go up the crematorium chimney in a puff of smoke she would get two thirds of my pension (after unravelling miles of red tape). It is still paid as a military pension so as she is a citizen and resident of Thailand that DTA exemption would apply and would have to pay tax here... well, file a tax return at least. I don't think my pension will increase to a taxable level after deductions! And more red tape to make sure it isn't taxed in Australia. 

 

MikeM - it reads to me that you have checked this.

 

This is my "interpretation" from reading Article 18 in the Australia-Thai DTA which starts off with the statement (where I only selected part of the DTA and I inserted the country names  )  :

 

Quote

"1. Subject to the provisions of Article-19, pensions and annuities paid to a resident of one of the Contracting States (Thailand) shall be taxable only in that State (Thailand)".

...

so clearly Article-19 is important ...

 

Some relevant words from article-19  :

Quote

"1. Remuneration (or other pension) paid by one of the Contracting States (Australia) ... to any individual in respect of services rendered in the discharge of governmental functions shall be taxable only in that state (Australia).  
...
"2. Any pension paid to an individual in respect of services rendered in the discharge of government functions to one of the Contracting States (Australia) ... shall be taxable only in that State (Australia).  Such pension shall, however, be taxable only in the other Contracting State (Thailand) if the recipient is a resident of, and a citizen or national of, that other State (Thailand)".

 

That item-2 suggests to me that a Thai wife who is a resident of Thailand , may then have to pay tax in  possibly in Thailand (?)  on the 2/3 portion of her passed away Australian husband's military pension that she will receive.    ....  I could have this wrong - but I believe that is also what you have determined?

 

But I am no tax expert and I struggle to understand DTAs.  Hopefully you have a document (with account number(s), contact address and contact phone number) prepared in advance to make her task easier.

 

Which reminds me, .... I need to do the same for my Canadian pension and retirement income fund to ease my younger Thai wife's task for when I eventually croke.

[UKresonant]

58 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Well, if those remittances are taxable, per DTA by Thailand, and if they exceed those 60/120/220 filing thresholds -- they'll hear about them in my tax filing. All those other remittances, because the DTA says they're not taxable, or because Por 162 exempts them -- will be invisible to TRD, since no need to declare them on a tax return. There is no requirement to provide TRD with data on remitted income that is not assessable.

I'm anticipating having to declare total income Vs total UK tax, for operation of tax credits.

If it remains remittance basis, I'm only remitting a component of income, and the exempt element is a relatively low percentage of the total. Still not clear on actual custom and practice of TRD, in respect to tax credits.

There was a PDF attached to the initial tax thread, about page 222 maybe, 'the Norwegian Question' answer by TRD. As that person was after certificates from TRD, they declared total income, but only remitted income was taxable.

If I remember correctly they had to ensure the tax free personal  allowances in each country did not get doubled up.

My phone skills can't find the link.

[jensmann]

Done! Revenue Office Udon Thani. Got a TIN in Sept.2024 - 15 Min.

Jan. 7th filed tax return - 30 Min.

Officer didn't speak English, I didn't speak Thai. Payed Baht 4,700 Tax.

(expected Baht 15,000).

It certainly isn't worth the risk to be in legal trouble...

[The Cyclist]

8 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

Same argument for the same long debate.

 

How does Country B know the source of income is covered under the DTA unless you file and declare the exact source of income, in which Country B will then not tax because it's covered under the DTA? 

 

Funny how so many people cannot grasp that concept. Or perhaps its more a case of not wanting to grasp that concept.

 

Under the DTA section of the RC, it lists 2 methods of how people will not be double taxed.

 

1. The exemption method.

 

2. The tax credit method.

 

It does not take the brains of an Arch Bishop to work out what sources of income is being referred to in DTA's.  Neither does it take the brains of an Arch Bishop to work out that you would need to file a tax return for either method to then be applied to your tax filing.

 

Assessable / non assessable income, I believe are terms that apply to Thai domestic tax policy, ie, people who work and pay tax in Thailand.

 

Nowhere, have I seen, written down,  that these terms apply to income remitted from overseas.

[The Cyclist]

9 hours ago, JimGant said:

This is where I lose you -- why do they have to be declared?. If the DTA says a certain type of income is taxable exclusively by country A, then that is solely where it needs to be mentioned in a tax return. Country B need never know about this income -- thus never needing its inclusion in a country B tax return.

 

You would need to ask the IRS, which shouldn't be too difficult for an American ex FCA.

 

As a Brit,I know that if I was a retiree Resident Alien of the US. I would have to file a tax return and declare my Government Pension, even though it is only taxable in the UK.

 

The clue is in the term " Declare worldwide income "

 

You are coming across as the previous lunatic tax expert  ( with a different user name ) that argued the toss with me that I could get an NT tax code for my Government Pension.

[PJ71]

32 minutes ago, jensmann said:

Done! Revenue Office Udon Thani. Got a TIN in Sept.2024 - 15 Min.

Jan. 7th filed tax return - 30 Min.

Officer didn't speak English, I didn't speak Thai. Payed Baht 4,700 Tax.

(expected Baht 15,000).

It certainly isn't worth the risk to be in legal trouble...

you paid 4700tbh tax on what income?

[jonesthepost]

As I understand it as a retired expat  living here for more than 180 days you are reqired to pay tax on money that comes in from overseas. I got a tax id from the revenue office in Chiang mai and with my allowances if I do not exceed 560000 baht I will not  have any tax to pay. When looking at the tax return form there  is on refernce to any money received from overseas.As  i have not exceeded that amount am I required to fill in tax return, did contact the miniburi office by phone  but the person there that I would paper work  to take there the answer was  quote cannot answer any questions you must come to the office 

[Guavaman]

On 1/10/2025 at 4:40 AM, chiang mai said:

It might be sensible to expand that list to include assessable income that is exempt under the terms of a DTA also, can anyone see a reason why not? 

Exemptions under DTAs are covered in ROYAL DECREE No. 18 Issued under the Revenue Code Regarding Revenue Tax Exemption  in B.E. 2505 (1962).

 

Section 3 Taxes and duties under the Revenue Code shall be exempted for persons in accordance with the agreements on avoidance of double taxation which the government of Thailand has entered into or shall enter into with the governments of foreign countries. 

 

Remarks :- The reason for the promulgation of this Royal Decree is that the government of Thailand has executed the agreements with the governments of  foreign countries for the avoidance of double taxation for persons who are residents  of one country but earn incomes or have properties in another country. Without  such agreements, those persons may be obliged to pay taxes to both countries at the full rates which causes onerous burden to them.  Hence, it is deemed expedient to alleviate burden of those persons in order to promote international investment and economic relations. 

 

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/user_upload/kormor/eng/RD_18.pdf
 

[TheAppletons]

One wonders why some posters keep re-posting the same thing over and over and over again.

 

It's as if they think that by jumping up and down and screaming repetitively, it's going to make them sound more credible when, in reality, it simply makes them look foolish - particularly when almost no one else agrees with their fabricated claims. 

 

One frequent poster should change his nick to The Broken Record. 

 

(Reference to vinyl record albums for you youngsters.)

[Guavaman]

2 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

Assessable / non assessable income, I believe are terms that apply to Thai domestic tax policy, ie, people who work and pay tax in Thailand.

 

Nowhere, have I seen, written down,  that these terms apply to income remitted from overseas.

 

Section 41 A taxpayer who in the previous tax year derived assessable income under Section 40 from an employment, or from business carried on in Thailand, or from business of an employer residing in Thailand, or from a property situated in Thailand shall pay tax in accordance with the provisions of this Part, whether such income is paid within or outside Thailand.

 

A resident of Thailand who in the previous tax year derived assessable income under Section 40 from an employment or from business carried on abroad or from a property situated abroad shall, upon bringing such assessable income into Thailand, pay tax in accordance with the provisions of this Part.

 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/37749.html

[The Cyclist]

21 minutes ago, Guavaman said:

Exemptions under DTAs are covered in ROYAL DECREE No. 18 Issued under the Revenue Code Regarding Revenue Tax Exemption  in B.E. 2505 (1962).

 

Section 3 Taxes and duties under the Revenue Code shall be exempted for persons in accordance with the agreements on avoidance of double taxation which the government of Thailand has entered into or shall enter into with the governments of foreign countries. 

 

 

Exemptions are not in dispute. It is also listed in the Revenue code

 

2 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

Under the DTA section of the RC, it lists 2 methods of how people will not be double taxed.

 

1. The exemption method.

 

2. The tax credit method.

 

It does not take the brains of an Arch Bishop to work out what sources of income is being referred to in DTA's.  Neither does it take the brains of an Arch Bishop to work out that you would need to file a tax return for either method to then be applied to your tax filing.

 

The issue is where the assessable / not assessable for tax filing  purposes comes from.

 

[The Cyclist]

6 minutes ago, Guavaman said:

A resident of Thailand who in the previous tax year derived assessable income under Section 40 from an employment or from business carried on abroad or from a property situated abroad shall, upon bringing such assessable income into Thailand, pay tax in accordance with the provisions of this Part.

 

And in the list of incomes at Section 40 ( 1 ) 

 

Quote

(1) Income derived from employment, whether in the form of salary, wage, per diem, bonus, bounty, gratuity, pension, house rent allowance, monetary value of rent-free residence provided by an employer, payment of debt liability of an employee made by an employer, or any money, property or benefit derived from employment.⁴

 

 

So a UK State Pension should be declared, a tax return filed  and may be taxable in Thailand, depending on circumstances.

 

A UK Government Pension is also a pension, should also be declared by filing a tax return, but will be exempt from any Thai taxation due to DTA.

[jwest10]

On 1/10/2025 at 2:24 PM, anchadian said:

I think we can safely say that no new forms will appear online for 2024 tax year and therefore to use the 2023 form filling in the 2024 date, but you still need a TIN which means a visit to your local RD.

Would be so much simpler if an application for a TIN was posted on the English language RD site.

 

Those will non-assessable income don't declare.

 

Just my thoughts

I have been several times to the Revenuue and explained my situation and yes "Do you have employment in Thailand"
No you will not get a Tin and also explained the Income Exemption is more than my income coming in.
Did mention got a pink ID Card and yes no forms as yet and in any case could use if got employment then no you can not get a tin.
Will await until next week and ask again but there is still time.

[JimGant]

2 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

As a Brit,I know that if I was a retiree Resident Alien of the US. I would have to file a tax return and declare my Government Pension, even though it is only taxable in the UK.

You would not have to declare your UK Govt Pension. The IRS isn't interested on tax exempt income, and appropriately has no line items for them (with the exception of tax exempt interest on govt bonds, a figure used to modify adjusted gross income, and therefore potentially raise Medicare premiums).

 

Same logic used by Thailand, i.e., my US govt pension is fully exempt from Thai taxation, so they have no interest in seeing this figure -- that's why there is no line item for it.

[jwest10]

20 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

And in the list of incomes at Section 40 ( 1 ) 

 

 

So a UK State Pension should be declared, a tax return filed  and may be taxable in Thailand, depending on circumstances.

 

A UK Government Pension is also a pension, should also be declared by filing a tax return, but will be exempt from any Thai taxation due to DTA.

I thought that was the case and not sure about it anymore and yes so many so-called tax experts and it seems no one know sure on anything,

[The Cyclist]

27 minutes ago, JimGant said:

You would not have to declare your UK Govt Pension.

 

Right 

 

Do you want 3 people who are currently Resident Aliens in the US, to tell you that you are talking krap ?

 

They are all ex colleagues of mine, all with Government pensions, and they have to declare their worldwide income.

 

I checked with them them, before I posed you the question.