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Posted
2 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

 

Time will tell. Not sure if that means a lot of time or a little.

 


Well previously I'd had letters from the Tax man in December reminding me that I hadn't filled for the previous year. That's about 8 months after the filing deadline, so could use that as a yard stick perhaps?

Posted
1 hour ago, Will B Good said:

My plan....anyone see any holes in this?

 

Open a new bank account in the UK to receive my state pension only......use that account for my 400,00 baht each year (marriage extension).....so tax free.

 

Any/all additional cash to be gifted to the wife's account from another UK account....government pension, company pension, rental income, investment income.......also tax free in Thailand.

 

Do I still need to do a tax return in Thailand???

 

Outstanding plan.........This is a great example of what every single expat will be doing....Which is making sure they pay 0.0% in taxes one way or another....

 

The Thai revenue department will be hard presses to pay for coffee and doughnuts with all the 0.0% expat taxes.... 

 

 

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Posted
2 minutes ago, Millian said:


Well previously I'd had letters from the Tax man in December reminding me that I hadn't filled for the previous year. That's about 8 months after the filing deadline, so could use that as a yard stick perhaps?

Sounds like you're active in the Thai economy.

My perspective is non-working retired expats.

Before now very few would have had a TIN or even known what a TIN is. 

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Posted
4 minutes ago, Will B Good said:

 

Another thing that crossed my mind.......how many expats even have a clue that these changes are taking place?

 

I only know from coming on this site......there must be 1000's out there, blissfully ignorant, and not rushing to get their TIN and file a return for March 31.


Yeah really good point.  Although you could say it's up the the person themselves to understand the tax laws of the country the reside in.

I had been working in Thailand for about 10 years before I realised I was supposed to file a tax return. As tax was taken off my salary every month, I presumed it was like British PAYE, where you don't need to file a tax return as already taken off.

 

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Posted
5 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Sounds like you're active in the Thai economy.

My perspective is non-working retired expats.

Before now very few would have had a TIN or even known what a TIN is. 


I see.

So, yeah if it takes them 8 months to realise an employed person paying tax every month hasn't filed their tax return, one can only imagine how they will manage to audit all the others with they arent aware of with no TIN!

 

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Posted

Just to clarify, I didn't mean I wasn't paying taxes, they were deducted automatically each month. I just want aware I was still supposed to file tax return at the end of the year even though I had already paid the tax.

I was using it as an example of how many people may not understand the relevant tax requirements here, as Will B Good mentioned.

 

Posted
9 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

Funny how so many people cannot grasp that concept. Or perhaps its more a case of not wanting to grasp that concept.

Had to deal with the same thing in the Australia Forum.  It goes to psychology.  Anything out of the daily routine, or anything new, just can't be accepted.  Fear of change.  Especially when the hip pocket is concerned. 

 

Throw enough rocks at the messenger, or ridicule the message enough, and they hope it all goes away, despite the message coming from government, and in relation to changes in the law.  Go figure.  

 

9 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

Neither does it take the brains of an Arch Bishop to work out that you would need to file a tax return for either method to then be applied to your tax filing.

Goes back to the same debate.  

 

A member posts on here that they remit funds, but they are tax exempt funds.  All Thailand sees in the remitted funds.  How and where those funds were "earned" is not known to them. 

 

It's up to the tax resident, that's me, you, and our fellow members, to file and declare, thus informing the Thai government their remitted funds are exempt, or, apply for tax credits, due to a DTA. Yes, rocket science. 

 

It's up to the tax residents of Thailand, who remit funds from overseas, to file and declare the origins of said funds, and then either have the funds exempted, or given tax credits due to the DTA. 

 

All of this talk like, "But it's pre 2024 savings so not assessable" blah blah blah - they don't know it is.  You have to tell them, and you do that by filing and declaring, not by posting it on AN.  :smile:

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Posted
4 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

It's up to the tax resident, that's me, you, and our fellow members, to file and declare, thus informing the Thai government their remitted funds are exempt, or, apply for tax credits, due to a DTA. Yes, rocket science. 

 

It's up to the tax residents of Thailand, who remit funds from overseas, to file and declare the origins of said funds, and then either have the funds exempted, or given tax credits due to the DTA. 

 

I posted this earlier from todays UK Guardian

 

Quote

Other reasons to submit a return include being self-employed and earning more than £1,000, or if you have any other untaxed income from tips and commission, savings, investments and dividends, as well as rental or foreign income.”

 

 

Quote

Don’t forget to declare any foreign income and your residency status, says Aatif Malik at the Birmingham-based tax consultancy Tax Accountant.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2025/jan/11/expert-tips-on-getting-uk-self-assessment-tax-returns-right

 

Reporting foreign income in the UK, whatever for

 

Surely a " Its kosher Gov, honest " is all that is needed 😀😀

Posted
5 hours ago, kuzmabruk said:

From Thai Revenue Department in English

 

Foreign-sourced income

If a foreigner derives income from sources outside Thailand, such income

is subject to income tax if the two following conditions are met:

such income has been earned in any tax year starting from 1 January

2024 onward by a foreigner who stays in Thailand for 180 days or more

in a tax (calendar) year, and;

such income earned has been remitted to Thailand (wholly or partially),

even if that remittance occurs in a later tax year

 

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/user_upload/lorkhor/newspr/2024/FOREIGNERS_PAY_TAX2024.pdf

Not withstanding tax free thresholds, it can not be any clearer.  

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Posted
6 hours ago, oldcpu said:

 

If i understand your question - because not every DTA is the same.  Some say only Thailand can tax a foreign pension, some say only the source country of the pension can tax the pension, and some infer both can tax (where one has priority).

 

One needs to look at the DTA with Thailand of their source country.

Ask yourself this question. 

 

When you transfer (remit) you pension to Thailand, does the Thai bank know it is ONLY pension money that you have transferred? No.  The bank only sees a foreign currency / exchange to baht deposit for a foreigner.

 

The TRD know you are not living on air here.  As another member said, in order to envoke the DTA or tax exemptions, you need to file and declare.  Otherwise, as far as the TRD are concerned, your funds could be from anything, anywhere. 

 

All these posts saying, "I'm a Brit.  We have a DTA."  Or, "I'm Australian.  There is a DTA."  Or, I'm American.  There's a DTA."  It;s about your FUNDS, not your nationality or your age. 

Posted
13 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Not withstanding tax free thresholds, it can not be any clearer.  

Indeed.  I wish the Thai 2024 tax forms in English language were that clear. ..

 

Ahh .. sorry .. there are no Thai 2024 English language tax forms, and the 2023 tax form has the 2023 tax year hard printed on the exemption page.

 

That does not make this any easier and contributes to make this less clear.

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Posted
2 hours ago, Will B Good said:

 

I see what you mean......but you have to wonder...... who on Earth would ever know.......... I guess it comes down to telling the truth!!!

I gifted money from the UK  to MrsJ … She records on a spread sheet exactly what she spends it on … I now make her pay from that account for everything she consumes …her share of food, her golf, her cloths, her car insurance, presents she buys etc. etc It’s amazing how low my credit card bill is now. In fact if they want me to pay an annual fee next year I’ll cancel it.

 

And she can prove her spending as it’s noted on her banking App.

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Posted
6 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

When you transfer (remit) you pension to Thailand, does the Thai bank know it is ONLY pension money that you have transferred? No.  The bank only sees a foreign currency / exchange to baht deposit for a foreigner.

 

The TRD know you are not living on air here.  As another member said, in order to envoke the DTA or tax exemptions, you need to file and declare.  Otherwise, as far as the TRD are concerned, your funds could be from anything, anywhere. 

 

To answer your question, by playing 'the devil's advocate' ...

 

There has been no change in Thai tax law.  Only Paw.161. and 162 (which are NOT chaages in law, but rather at most ministerial regulations or directives) and some public words by senior person(s) in the Thai RD.  Plus there are a bunch of videos by companies in Thailand who make money off of people filing tax returns. Companies that arguably want to get money off of foreigners.

 

In the past, under Thai tax implementation,  foreign income was taxable only if remitted to Thailand in the same calendar year in which it was earned.

 

There was no change (today) in the definition of a tax resident. The law is still the same.

 

So to use some of your words (again - I am playing the devils advocate):

 

In the past, when you transfer (remit) your pension to Thailand, does the Thai bank know it is ONLY  money that you have transferred? No?  In the past the bank only sees a foreign currency / exchange to baht deposit for a foreigner.

 

What you noted also applies in the past where "The TRD know you are not living on air here.  As another member said, in order to envoke the DTA or tax exemptions, you need to file and declare.  Otherwise, as far as the TRD are concerned, your funds could be from anything, anywhere. "   That was true in the past as much as it is today.

 

I am not saying what you noted is right or wrong. 

 

I am just saying, the change that happened (paw.161/162) has not changed the fact that foreign income, arguably subject to Thailand tax, was also transferred to Thailand in the past.

 

So if nothing was done by Thai RD in the past - how much more will Thai RD do today?  I don't know. Something for expats to ponder.

 

6 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

 

All these posts saying, "I'm a Brit.  We have a DTA."  Or, "I'm Australian.  There is a DTA."  Or, I'm American.  There's a DTA."  It;s about your FUNDS, not your nationality or your age. 

 

Yes - its mostly your country of source income (but not always - especially for Thai citizens). 

 

For example I obtain pensions from Canada and also from Germany.  Thai-German DTA with Thailand gives Thailand exclusive tax rights on the German pensions.  Thai-Canadian-DTA with Thailand  gives Canada exclusive tax rights on the Canadian pensions. 

 

So every DTA is different.

 

I happen to be under an LTR (making that a mute point for me) and currently now (and for next few years) I will be living off of income brought into Thailand when I was a non-resident to Thailand (and bring no money into Thailand now)  -but that is not the point.  As I think you agree, the DTA of the country from where one's income is sourced is important.

 

Anyway - don't get me wrong - I was simply playing 'the devils advocate'.

 

I do believe all foreigners should seriously examine their financial situation in terms of taxation and take the appropriate legal financial action, which may or may not require them to file a tax return.

.

Posted
24 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

Surely a " Its kosher Gov, honest " is all that is needed

A lot of members seem to be relying in "TiT."  Normally, I have no problem with "TiT' because it has had little effect on my daily living in Thailand. 

 

Now, I am caught up in a Thai government net, as we all are, and we know we are all only here on a visa, not permanent residency, and of course not citizenship.  Most are living here on what is pretty much just a 12 month tourist visa. 

 

Accidentally, or on purpose, if one was to break a law here, including a tax law, it MAY have some nasty and unforeseen consequences down the track, and I am not scaremongering.  Example:  we all know the punishment for overstaying.  Eg. blacklisting.  It's well documented.

 

I wouldn't want to be the first to be scapegoated over not paying tax, not matter how big, or how small, my tax liability.  Also, I certainly wouldn't want to have to male a large "tea money" donation to make any tax problem I have go away.  

 

As i have said in the past, a tax policy without collection and enforcement is no tax policy at all.  On that basis, I just can't see how members can chose to ignore the whole thing completely. 

Posted
1 hour ago, redwood1 said:


There is a huge difference between someone working in a country...Who rightfully should file taxes..........

 

And someone who is retired and not working...Who most likely has zero investments in Thailand and owns nothing in Thailand except for a motor bike and a condo if even that...And gets 100% ZERO benefits from Thailand...ZERO health care and social security and ZERO residency benefits...

Yes true and not in our names but many have Thai families who have properties provided for and  yes every day as we step outside we contribute massively contribute to the Thai economy but of course that does not count. 

Posted
27 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

Indeed.  I wish the Thai 2024 tax forms in English language were that clear. ..

 

Ahh .. sorry .. there are no Thai 2024 English language tax forms, and the 2023 tax form has the 2023 tax year hard printed on the exemption page.

 

That does not make this any easier and contributes to make this less clear.

I am sure there will be chaos, but when the dust settles, farang will be made to pay "something" but in my opinion, ignoring it and doing nothing will not be an option. 

Posted
22 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

It's up to the tax resident, that's me, you, and our fellow members, to file and declare, thus informing the Thai government their remitted funds are exempt, or, apply for tax credits, due to a DTA. Yes, rocket science. 

 

But that's not the way the system currently works.  Under the honor system where we self-determine assessability of remitted funds, it's up to us to inform the Thai government that funds are taxable, NOT tax-exempt, by filing a return and declaring remitted assessable funds.

 

There is no way using the current forms to declare foreign income AND claim it to be exempt.  The IRS bestows upon us Form 2555 Foreign Earned Income where residents can claim the foreign earned income exclusion.  For foreigners, there is form W8-BEN Certificate of Foreign Status of Beneficial Owner for United States Tax Withholding and Reporting to register withholding for banks and brokerages, and Form 1040-NR U.S. Nonresident Alien Income Tax Return which includes Schedule OI where you claim tax treaty benefits.

 

IRS rules allow resident aliens and green card holders to file NON-resident alien income tax returns..........there are more details and forms, but point is there is a defined procedure for foreigners residing in the US to claim tax treaty benefits with the necessary forms and instructions readily available.

 

That is currently unpossible in Thailand.  Our only option here is NOT to declare foreign exempt/non-assessable income.

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Posted
17 hours ago, oldcpu said:

 

 

 

But I am no tax expert and I struggle to understand DTAs.  Hopefully you have a document (with account number(s), contact address and contact phone number) prepared in advance to make her task easier.

 

Which reminds me, .... I need to do the same for my Canadian pension and retirement income fund to ease my younger Thai wife's task for when I eventually croke.

Getting a bit off topic, but yes I've got a list of all the things she has to do, all the people she has to contact....Aus embassy, ComSuper (pension admin) etc. But she refuses to talk about, her logic is that if you think about bad things they happen, ignore them and it won't. Sorry dear, 2 things are inevitable ..death and taxes! Biggest hassle is that the pension has to be paid into an Australian account, luckily a WISE account is acceptable to comsuper now.

Posted
10 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

But that's not the way the system currently works.  Under the honor system where we self-determine assessability of remitted funds, it's up to us to inform the Thai government that funds are taxable, NOT tax-exempt, by filing a return and declaring remitted assessable funds.

You are a farang.  Do you trust the system here enough that you definitely know that's the way it's going to work out for you?  I don't. 

 

11 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

There is no way using the current forms to declare foreign income AND claim it to be exempt.  The IRS bestows upon us Form 2555 Foreign Earned Income where residents can claim the foreign earned income exclusion.  For foreigners, there is form W8-BEN Certificate of Foreign Status of Beneficial Owner for United States Tax Withholding and Reporting to register withholding for banks and brokerages, and Form 1040-NR U.S. Nonresident Alien Income Tax Return which includes Schedule OI where you claim tax treaty benefits.

As I said, there will be chaos, but when the dust settles, these things will be sorted out, and in my opinion, filing and declaring will be just like extending your visa, it will become a part of your requirement for your permission to live here.  

 

14 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

IRS rules allow resident aliens and green card holders to file NON-resident alien income tax returns..........there are more details and forms, but point is there is a defined procedure for foreigners residing in the US to claim tax treaty benefits with the necessary forms and instructions readily available.

 

That is currently unpossible in Thailand.  Our only option here is NOT to declare foreign exempt/non-assessable income.

I accept this, but it will change and the Thai government will get some money out of it.  Nothing surer. 

Posted
2 hours ago, Millian said:

Something I'd like to discuss which I haven't seen mentioned so far. (although I'm sure it probably has, so please excuse if so)

AFAIK, the only change to the law at the moment, is that all money remitted to Thailand is liable for tax, where as previously it was only liable if it was earned in the current year it was remitted.

Now, how many of us in all our previous yeas here, have been audited by the Tax man to prove money remitted wasn't earned in the current year?  I'm going to guess not many of us?

 

So I'm wondering why all the worry right now? If they have never really been checking previously when money was earned, why do we think they are going to start auditing everyone now? 

Have they stated they are going to police this more going forward, is this why the panic?  Or is it simply because they have changed the law, we are presuming they are going to be more strict now?

 

Hi the nail squarely on the head. For many years, many tax residents have remitted foreign current year earned income, with zero enforcement, zero consequences. Talk of a loophole, sure, but no one has ever needed to rely on that loophole, it may as well have not existed.

 

There is no clear indication this has changed, or is going to change, apart from a lot of speculation. TRD have released 2 internal memos, and 1 infographic has been published.  Apart from that, all the noise is coming from 3rd parties, many who have sprung up to "feast upon the fear" , so to speak. 

 

Status quo is, Thailand RD isn't interested in taxing income unless you work here. If I had to guess, I'd say 90%+ of expat tax residents won't file a tax return this year. 

 

Another point most people on here don't discuss/ don't know, is there are over 1M Thais working overseas and remitting income back to Thailand ( now they're not all tax residents, but many are), it's a significant portion of GDP. They will be hit, if this is ever enforced, another reason it's extremely unlikely to play out as per the' letter of the law'.

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Posted
8 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

But that's not the way the system currently works.  Under the honor system where we self-determine assessability of remitted funds

 

The honour system is for the Internal Thai domestic tax policy. The honour system does not work on the International stage.

 

Here is 4 misconceptions about DTA's, the first 2 are especially pertinent to the thread

 

Quote
  • DTAs are applied automatically by the tax authorities.
  • You only need to file a tax return in one country and not the other.
  • Taxable income in one country is exempt from all taxation in another.
  • Expats can choose where they wish to be a tax resident.

 

https://chasebuchanan.com/double-taxation-agreements-with-the-uk/

 

See link above from the Guardian on declaring Foreign income. The UK has many DTA's with other Countries, the message in the Guardian article, you must report / file your foreign income.

 

Too many are looking at this from a tax / Dta / Thai internal tax policy point of view.

 

It needs to be looked at from an International perspective.

 

I have already posted about low value accounts ( Most of us ) becoming reportable in Thailand from Jan 2024.

 

If our foreign remittances are not reported. Thailand cannot carry out its duties under CRS, namely

 

1. Tax evasion compliance. - Is this remittance engaged in tax evasion.

 

2. Tax obligation compliance - Has this remittance paid the tax that it should have paid.

 

International stage is where the answers are to be found, not the thai domestic revenue code or 40 year old DTA's ( although they are still in effect )

Posted
3 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

You are a farang.  Do you trust the system here enough that you definitely know that's the way it's going to work out for you?  I don't. 

 

I trust the TRD to resolve the foreigner tax situation as much as I trust the police force to enforce traffic regulations.

 

So I read the regulations, check my TDA, and I file Thai tax returns following the rules.  Pretty simple, at least in my case.

 

I do not declare non-assessable income, and if necessary have the documentation to support that claim.

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Posted
30 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

There has been no change in Thai tax law. 

I accept this.  Shall we call it "a shift in policy?"  Does it really matter? 

 

The Thai government is simply tapping a new revenue stream that has been laying dormant for decades. 

 

33 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

So if nothing was done by Thai RD in the past - how much more will Thai RD do today?  I don't know. Something for expats to ponder.

That's the old argument that the TRD have no idea, they don't have the infrastructure to implement it, they are undermanned, TiT, TiT and TiT, blah, blah and blah. 

 

I admit, there is a chance nothing will happen, because of TiT, but I have never known a Thai to walk away from money because of TiT.  They usually move heaven and earth when money is involved.  :smile:

 

Also, the media releases tend to show there's some "smoke" around the issue, and where there's smoke there's usually fire.

 

38 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

So every DTA is different.

Correct, bu there is also a lot of differences in the types and amounts of income that is remitted.  Eg. pension, rental returns, dividends, annuities, business earnings, compensation payments, interest payments etc etc from all different nationalities here.  

 

Everyone has their own set of unique circumstances. 

 

41 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

I do believe all foreigners should seriously examine their financial situation in terms of taxation and take the appropriate legal financial action, which may or may not require them to file a tax return.

I 100% agree. 

 

We all take great care not to overstay.  Add paying any tax bill to the list. 

 

If you are not legal tax wise, one could expose themselves to some nasty consequences. 

Posted
16 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

If our foreign remittances are not reported. Thailand cannot carry out its duties under CRS,

 


Reporting foreign remittances has no relevance, or effect, to Thailand being able to 'carry out its duties under CRS'.

 

The FI's/banks in Thailand, can meet their CRS obligations , by sending a single data file with some customer details, aggregate account balances and some specific individual transactions, once a year. In theory the Thai RD then sends this to the RD's of the participating jurisdictions and vice versa. That's it.

 

The CRS reporting obligations have nothing to with remitted income, nor that remitted income being reported to a tax authority. 

 

This has been pointed out to you multiple times, but you seem unable to grasp it, and keep posting falsely.  

  • Like 1
Posted
6 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

Until Thailand passes legislation requiring ALL remittances be reported,

 

Dear Gawd in heaven, really, you think Thailand needs to pass legislation ?
 

6 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

The CRS reporting obligations have nothing to with remitted income, nor that remitted income being reported to a tax authority. 

 

Keep believing that

Posted
11 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

Dear Gawd in heaven, really, you think Thailand needs to pass legislation ?

 

Yes, indeed.

 

Please explain for the studio audience exactly how to claim ALL your remittances on the 2024 PND.90/91 AND how to claim exemption under the relevant DTA(s), and which specific line item is used to enter your credit for tax paid to Zamibia.

 

You cannot, as it is currently unpossible.

 

Step 1:  Steal underpants.

Step 2:  ???

Step 3:  DTA benefits granted.

 

 

  • Like 2
Posted
14 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

studio audience exactly how to claim ALL your remittances on the 2024 PND.90/91 AND how to claim exemption under the relevant DTA(s), and which specific line item is used to enter your credit for tax paid to Zamibia.

 

You cannot, as it is currently unpossible.

 

2024 UK SA 100

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6613fc8a213873b991031b88/SA100_2024.pdf

 

Small part on Foreign income. Declare anything over £1000. No mention of DTA's etc. The supplementary page is where you would fill in the DTA stuff.

 

Do you think that the updated thai tax return could have something similar, or is that ' unpossible ' ?

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