what money is taxed 2024 ?

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

11 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

In that Pattaya session you mentioned, did Carden say he now believes Roth IRA remittances ARE Thai taxable, or he didn't specifically mention Roths?

 

I believe I found and just watched the YT video on Carden's hour-long Thai tax presentation to the PCEC in January 2025.

 

In his talk, he did briefly mention regular U.S. IRAs. But he made absolutely no mention whatsover of where Roth IRAs would stand under the recent Thai tax moves.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XScNGwqXQm8

 

[JimGant]

On 2/4/2025 at 12:17 AM, NoDisplayName said:

On 2/3/2025 at 11:35 PM, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

I saw a YT video the other day from last fall during which the American tax consultant guy here in BKK (Thomas Carden) said they had been told by someone in the TRD at some point that their general policy was going to be that they would treat tax-exempt instruments from the U.S. as tax exempt in Thailand...

 

Why would they do that if the point of the exercise is to broaden the tax base and bring in more funds?

 

Why would Thailand unilaterally give up taxing rights if they have authority to tax under the DTA?

Why would they do this? Because this is what's now incorporated in the latest OECD and UN Model tax treaties. Kind of an adjunct to no double taxation -- but in this case, no taxation by country B, if no taxation by country A (assuming it's subject to taxation by country A, and not exempt because you're a non resident).

 

The US-UK DTA is the prime example. Written after Roth IRAs were invented (unlike the Thai-US DTA, written before Roth), the US was able to incorporate, via subsequent protocol into the DTA, the following (from the US-UK tech explanation):

Quote

However, the State of residence, under subparagraph (b), must exempt from tax any
amount of such pensions or other similar remuneration that would be exempt from tax in the
State in which the pension scheme is established if the recipient were a resident of that State.
Thus, for example, a distribution from a U.S. "Roth IRA" to a U.K. resident would be exempt
from tax in the United Kingdom to the same extent the distribution would be exempt from tax in
the United States if it were distributed to a US resident.

https://home.treasury.gov/system/files/131/Treaty-UK-Protocol-TE-7-22-2002.pdf

So, this is probably where Carden was coming from -- TRD is looking at doing what the US-UK protocol did re Roth IRAs.

 

But, for now, it's kind of in limbo. The US-Thai DTA has no mention of Roth IRAs (Code section 408a not mentioned), so there's nothing in the DTA that says Roth IRAs are treated the same as Traditional IRAs or private pensions. So how are they treated? I dunno.

 

It wouldn't be that hard for the "competent authorities" (the nomenclature for the folks who can modify DTAs) to do a handshake protocol. Or, even Thailand could go it alone, with a modification of its domestic tax law re Roths, which would be allowed, as it wouldn't violate the DTA policy affecting double taxation. Meanwhile, if you are remitting Roths, I'd do a good screening of the arguments for Por 162 encompassing Roth IRAs -- and feel confident that Roth income is definitely pre 2024 income -- and even more so than traditional IRAs, this income is 'after tax' -- and thus even more solidly considered "savings."

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

4 hours ago, JimGant said:

I'd do a good screening of the arguments for Por 162 encompassing Roth IRAs -- and feel confident that Roth income is definitely pre 2024 income -- and even more so than traditional IRAs, this income is 'after tax' -- and thus even more solidly considered "savings."

 

Jim, thanks for the interesting excerpt above about how the more recent US-UK DTA treats non-taxable accounts like US Roths from one country when the accountholder is living in the other country... Not taxable!

 

Quote

Meanwhile, if you are remitting Roths, I'd do a good screening of the arguments for Por 162 encompassing Roth IRAs -- and feel confident that Roth income is definitely pre 2024 income -- and even more so than traditional IRAs, this income is 'after tax' -- and thus even more solidly considered "savings."

 

Jim, about this comment you made, and for others reading here, the advice currently being given out by the Expat Tax Thailand firm regarding pre-2024 income being remitted into Thailand as being exempt from Thai taxation under the TRD's 2023 policy changes (not Thai laws, because there's been no new laws on all this) strikes me as being very peculiar.

 

Their take -- and I haven't seen them explain their basis for this interpretation -- is that ONLY pre-2024 income held in home country BANK accounts is exempt from Thai taxation if remitted, even though the original TRD policy statements made no such limitation AFAICT. And thus by ETT's interpretation, they seem to have opined that if someone kept/had a couple hundred thousand dollars in a regular U.S. BROKERAGE account as of 12/31/2023, that NONE of that could be treated as tax exempt pre-2024 savings!!!

 

I don't understand that notion at all... But I do expect to be talking to them about that interpretation in the coming week.

 

FWIW, they seem to have the same interpretation about nominally Thai tax-exempt funds received by inheritance. They seem to be saying if an expat received an inheritance into their foreign bank account(s) and kept it there only, then it would be tax exempt for Thai purposes if ever remitted into Thailand. But if that same person took the inheritance sometime prior to 2024 and moved it into a brokerage account, then somehow, the Thai tax exemption for inheritance would no longer apply. Likewise, that seems to be nonsensical, at least to me.

 

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Jim, thanks for the interesting excerpt above about how the more recent US-UK DTA treats non-taxable accounts like US Roths from one country when the accountholder is living in the other country... Not taxable!

 

 

Jim, about this comment you made, and for others reading here, the advice currently being given out by the Expat Tax Thailand firm regarding pre-2024 income being remitted into Thailand as being exempt from Thai taxation under the TRD's 2023 policy changes (not Thai laws, because there's been no new laws on all this) strikes me as being very peculiar.

 

Their take -- and I haven't seen them explain their basis for this interpretation -- is that ONLY pre-2024 income held in home country BANK accounts is exempt from Thai taxation if remitted, even though the original TRD policy statements made no such limitation AFAICT. And thus by ETT's interpretation, they seem to have opined that if someone kept/had a couple hundred thousand dollars in a regular U.S. BROKERAGE account as of 12/31/2023, that NONE of that could be treated as tax exempt pre-2024 savings!!!

 

I don't understand that notion at all... But I do expect to be talking to them about that interpretation in the coming week.

 

FWIW, they seem to have the same interpretation about nominally Thai tax-exempt funds received by inheritance. They seem to be saying if an expat received an inheritance into their foreign bank account(s) and kept it there only, then it would be tax exempt for Thai purposes if ever remitted into Thailand. But if that same person took the inheritance sometime prior to 2024 and moved it into a brokerage account, then somehow, the Thai tax exemption for inheritance would no longer apply. Likewise, that seems to be nonsensical, at least to me.

 

About the brokerage account aspect.

A brokerage account might have a cash bucket part in it.

Perhaps a money market fund or something like that.

I don't think that firm has opined on whether TRD would accept that cash bucket part the same way as cash in a regular non-brokerage bank account. Someone should ask them. It seems a grey area.

[Jingthing]

I saw another video today which raised a new question for me.

It said health insurance premiums could be used as deductions (or credits?) or whatever the term  for that is in Thailand.

But then it said something vague about health expenses which sounded to me like any out of pocket health care expense which if you're not covered could be a massive amount of money for hospitalization, etc. But then it said there were LIMITS on the amounts. But then didn't give the limits!

 

Does anyone have more specific information about that?

[NoDisplayName]

28 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I saw another video today which raised a new question for me.

It said health insurance premiums could be used as deductions (or credits?) or whatever the term  for that is in Thailand.

But then it said something vague about health expenses which sounded to me like any out of pocket health care expense which if you're not covered could be a massive amount of money for hospitalization, etc. But then it said there were LIMITS on the amounts. But then didn't give the limits!

 

Does anyone have more specific information about that?

 

There are allowances on the tax forms to deduct health and life insurance premiums (I think total max 100K?), but premiums must be paid to a Thai insurance company.

 

See page 5 of the tax return, the allowances/exemptions attachment, line 7.  Once totaled, they are deducted on the tax calculation, No. 11(2)

 

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/english_form/2023/attach9091_220367.pdf