Thai tax tangle: Expats warned of new rules on overseas income

[oldcpu]

14 hours ago, koolkarl said:

The foreigners in Thailand, especially the retirees, are sitting ducks.  Canada is part of the OECD and CRS agreement for years and if you lived in Canada, you would have to report your world income, same as coming to Thailand.  But at least Canada makes you a legal immigrant and gives you health care for what that is worth there. Here, you will just get laughed at.

 

Yes - true that Canada requires one to report their global income, but if one is not a Canadian resident one does NOT have to pay to Canada tax on one's global income (if a non-resident to Canada).

 

Canada joined CRS when? In 2015. ok?  Canada going back to 1972 !!!!! (when I first started filing Canadian income tax returns) required global income be reported by Canadian tax residents. There was no CRS then.  Canada requiring global tax to be reported never has had anything to do with CRS.

 

Anyone who tells you otherwise has never properly researched this.  They are just putting out blind and badly formulated opinions IMHO.

[KhunHeineken]

4 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

OK so just be coherent. Why bothering to file a tax return as you're already being rogue with Immigration and you agree yourself that tax enforcement is non-existent?

Incorrect.  I'll explain my reason.

 

Using an agent makes money for the agent and a corrupt payment for immigration.  It's been going on for decades.  Usually the agent has some family connection who works at immigration. 

 

I have already sourced an agent for this tax policy, but still shopping around for another agent.  I haven't pulled the trigger yet.  I'll wait until the 11th hour to file.  Throughout 2024 I minimized my remittances.  I also brought back  wad of cash from the Singapore F1, and a friend coming here for a holiday also bought over a wad of cash for me. 

 

I know I'll have to pay "something."  As I have said in the past, Thailand will get me this year.  I threw my hands up.  I stayed more than 180 days last year. 

 

Based on the cost, legit or otherwise, will determine if I continue being a tax resident of Thailand, or cease my tax residency by only staying 179 days this year.  

 

If none of it happens, than nothing to pay, carry on as normal, great.  If they are serious about it, they'll get me this year, but then I will know where I stand and will make plans accordingly. 

[oldcpu]

8 hours ago, Presnock said:

 

well, it comes down to facts - if a foreigner stays in Thailand more than 179 days in a calendar year he is a Tax Resident.  If that tax resident has assessable income key word of course is assessable, then by law he is supposed to get a Thai tax id from the revenue dept. 

 

I hear you ...  i read what you note.  But I think we both know the current practice is different in cases involving some foreigners.

 

My wife had the view (likely incorrect) that I needed a TIN even thou my income not assessable.  I did not know what was correct.

 

She applied online for a tax ID for me (via some Thai language site).  She had to upload my passport, pink-ID, etc ... and provided other information on me.

 

This goes to the Central RD office in Bangkok.  Guess what they do?  .... I'll tell you.  They pass the application to Phuket RD.

 

What did Phuket RD do?  They called my wife and I up on the phone (my wife answered and talked to them).  They noted they would not give me a tax ID even thou  I was spending > 180 days in Thailand (closer to 300 days per year in Thailand) as I was not remitting income to Thailand.  But ... but ...  but what about "CRS" that some post on-and-on-and-on about (not you posting that - granted). It was never mentioned.  I don't think the Phuket RD (to which Bangkok RD delegated this to) cares less about CRS for individuals.

 

So ?   Bangkok RD passes this to the local office to decide.

 

I don't dispute what you typed ... but the facts are also that neither the HQ Bangkok RD nor the local provincial RD will provide myself tax-ID at this time.

 

I am not saying do not file an income tax return nor am I saying don't go try to get a Thai TIN.  I am saying I tried and failed (with full disclosure to them as to my finances).

 

Everyone needs to decide on their own approach.

 

[NoDisplayName]

6 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Throughout 2024 I minimized my remittances.

 

How much of your remittances were assessable?

 

7 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

I know I'll have to pay "something." 

 

If you go through an agent to file, I agree.

[oldcpu]

11 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

Which might just be why Overseas Income will need to be declared, and also to ensure ....

 

 

That is nothing more than opinion. 

 

We have been through this over and over multiple times.  I even researched information on both the Thai and Canadian information articles describing  their compliance needed for CRS.  NONE of those mention anything about overseas income.

 

If you can't find a proper OECD reference regarding the CRS in regards to overseas income reporting, then you really should preference your posts  to make it clear this is only your opinion.

 

In my opinion you are unintentionally spreading false information with that opinion (as you actually believe your opinion true with no OECD/CRS references to support such an opinion, and with both Thai and Canadian info sheets on CRS saying nothing about such).  In fact, both Thai and Canadian faq sheet make it clear that information on some resident accounts (in those countries) that are government regulated are not to be provided to the OECD via CRS.

[Badrabbit]

How am I supposed to file a tax return when the local tax office speak no English, the last time I tried they didn't seem interested. Just said "If you pay tax in your home country don't pay tax here" in very broken English.

[Gknrd]

Makes perfect sense to me?

Just fair IMHO.

You pay taxes after 180 days, so?  And in return you get:

 

No residence. 1 year visa extension if you have 800K in the bank.

No rights to buy land to build a home on for security.

No air to breathe, living there will shorten your life by many many years.

Double , tripple pricing.

Sewage and garbage pumped out in the ocean and streets.

 

Just a win , win , as far as I am concerned. I know I am coming there just to stay 181 days so I can file. 

A no brainer.

 

 

[KhunHeineken]

50 minutes ago, Gknrd said:

Makes perfect sense to me?

Just fair IMHO.

You pay taxes after 180 days, so?  And in return you get:

 

No residence. 1 year visa extension if you have 800K in the bank.

No rights to buy land to build a home on for security.

No air to breathe, living there will shorten your life by many many years.

Double , tripple pricing.

Sewage and garbage pumped out in the ocean and streets.

 

Just a win , win , as far as I am concerned. I know I am coming there just to stay 181 days so I can file. 

A no brainer.

 

 

Yes, come and "help" the Thai people by donating tax. 

[KhunHeineken]

1 hour ago, NoDisplayName said:

How much of your remittances were assessable?

I don't care about all of this BS on which you, and others are relying.  Eg. assessabe, non assessagle, pre 2024 savings, blah blah, blah. 

 

In my opinion, the Thai's won't care about the difference, so I decided to minimize the equation in preparation.  

 

1 hour ago, NoDisplayName said:

If you go through an agent to file, I agree.

Yes, they will probably even be able to negotiate the amount.  It's laughable, but hey, I'll have a Certificate of Clearance, and sleep well. 

 

Then, look at AN at all those stressing, some, if not all, who may become illegal after the 31st March. 

 

They want your money.  Simple as that.  Like so many other things here, refuse to give them the money and face the consequences. 

[oldcpu]

28 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

but hey, I'll have a Certificate of Clearance, and sleep well. 

 

 

 Really?

 

Where will you get that from?  Have you read what the Thai RD has on that?  Let me make it easy for you ... here is the reference:

 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/23518.html

 

If you read that, you will note that it is for entering/leaving Thailand.  Not for extensions.  Currently, as written, those who stay in Thailand and never leave never have to produce such.

 

Also, from what I have read, it has been dormant for years. On the books.  But no longer in use.

 

So likely Thailand has to update such, if they wish to apply such.

 

Perhaps they will - but they have not done so yet, .... they have not even hinted that they are considering such (which given how often they like to explore publicly ideas that never come to pass is, shall I say, unusual if they intend to go the 'tax certificate' route)?

 

But who knows.  TiT.

[KhunHeineken]

13 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

Really?

Yes.

 

13 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

Where will you get that from? 

An agent.

 

13 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

Have you read what the Thai RD has on that? 

No, nor do I care.  The agent has told me they will deal with it all. 

 

14 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

you read that, you will note that it is for entering/leaving Thailand.  Not for extensions.  Currently, as written, those who stay in Thailand and never leave never have to produce such.

As said before, they very well may sting me this year, but not next year.  I'll give them a chance. 

 

16 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

Also, from what I have read, it has been dormant for years. On the books.  But no longer in use.

 

So likely Thailand has to update such, if they wish to apply such.

 

Perhaps they will - but they have not done so yet, .... they have not even hinted that they are considering such (which given how often they like to explore publicly ideas that never come to pass is, shall I say, unusual if they intend to go the 'tax certificate' route)?

Don't know, don't care.  That's why I will pay an agent. 

 

16 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

But who knows.  TiT.

Yes, sure.  I will wait until the 11th hour to file.  If it all looks like going ahead, I'll be on the phone to the agent, if not, great, carry on as normal. 

 

All his BS about assessible, non assessible, pre 2024 savings, blah, blah, blah.  The Thai's don't care. The Thai's want their money.  Simple as that.  

 

I remember asking one member if he was prepared to go to a Thai Court to fight his case that is remittances were not assessable, he didn't post much on the thread after that.

 

All these brave expat retirees posting how they will not pay, until they make a certificate a requirement of their extension and then watch them line up to pay tax.  It's laughable.   

 

Yes, there will be chaos.  Yes it will make no sense.  Yes, you will probably not be paying the right amount of tax, up or down.  However, at the end of the day, you will pay, where as , you never paid in the past.  MONEY, MONEY, MONEY.  Simple concept when talking about Thailand.   

[Presnock]

9 hours ago, oldcpu said:

 

I hear you ...  i read what you note.  But I think we both know the current practice is different in cases involving some foreigners.

 

My wife had the view (likely incorrect) that I needed a TIN even thou my income not assessable.  I did not know what was correct.

 

She applied online for a tax ID for me (via some Thai language site).  She had to upload my passport, pink-ID, etc ... and provided other information on me.

 

This goes to the Central RD office in Bangkok.  Guess what they do?  .... I'll tell you.  They pass the application to Phuket RD.

 

What did Phuket RD do?  They called my wife and I up on the phone (my wife answered and talked to them).  They noted they would not give me a tax ID even thou  I was spending > 180 days in Thailand (closer to 300 days per year in Thailand) as I was not remitting income to Thailand.  But ... but ...  but what about "CRS" that some post on-and-on-and-on about (not you posting that - granted). It was never mentioned.  I don't think the Phuket RD (to which Bangkok RD delegated this to) cares less about CRS for individuals.

 

So ?   Bangkok RD passes this to the local office to decide.

 

I don't dispute what you typed ... but the facts are also that neither the HQ Bangkok RD nor the local provincial RD will provide myself tax-ID at this time.

 

I am not saying do not file an income tax return nor am I saying don't go try to get a Thai TIN.  I am saying I tried and failed (with full disclosure to them as to my finances).

 

Everyone needs to decide on their own approach.

 

AS I mentioned, "assessable income remitted so since you said no assessable remitted, then you agree with what I said not necessary to get a tax id, only if you remit assessable...

[Presnock]

17 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

I understand the tax laws that affect me mostly completely.

 

You fail to understand this comment and responses is related to what was said by the GD and what was reported.

 

Other posters believe the GD's comments, never quoted, only paraphrased, are directed specifically at foreign tax residents and imply some major changes in the tax code targeting foreigners.

 

My comments on that article are that we really don't know what the GD said, and many of the specific points brought up in the article on the law are wrong, so unlikely those paragraphs came from the GD.

 

I believe this to be more a clickbayt-style article prepared by a staff writer with no tax expertise, who likely wrote the article from another staffer's notes, and then spiced it up by adding loads of foreigner-related extraneous material for the English edition of the paper.

as noted many times by this formuand the users - this is an opinion forum and since we all have an opinion, whether it agrees with anyone else doesn't really matter - readers just need to be aware of facts and not try to sway others with unproven data.  I personally have spent at total of 30+ years in Thailand beginning in the early 70's and have seen all the amazing changes and the only think that hasn't chnaged in that time is the unpredictability of the Thai officials and new laws (or interpretations of old ones).  I welcome reading all the diverse opinions and some I laugh at but I also see people write what they think are "facts" when in reality they are just guessing.  I do apologize if I misquote someone's meaning and wish all happiness with any new tax schemes which I am sure will be coming in the not-too-distant future.

[scottiejohn]

11 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

Give it time. 

 

You can hold me to it. 

 

I will gladly say I was wrong in the future, but in my opinion, if all this goes through, attaching tax compliance to immigration / visas / extensions is the logical thing for the Thai government will do.

 

Time will tell.   

More bloody scaremongering!

Give it a rest please!

[Jabberwocky]

On 1/16/2025 at 3:45 PM, Card said:

Google 'Common reporting standard'. The dtas require full disclosure by participating states to prevent tax evasion 

This is an exchange of information of TAX AUTHORITIES. So as I said your bank will not disclose what you took from your account at home to the Thai authority. The Thai tax authority will just check back with your tax authority at home what your ID is and what you have paid etc. This is totally understandable.

 

I attach my tax declaration to my visa application for years now anyway, this is a requirement for the income  confirmation by my consulate. But it is never from the recent year because we have other deadlines at home. I see a problem there.

[redwood1]

1 hour ago, Presnock said:

as noted many times by this formuand the users - this is an opinion forum and since we all have an opinion, whether it agrees with anyone else doesn't really matter - readers just need to be aware of facts and not try to sway others with unproven data.  I personally have spent at total of 30+ years in Thailand beginning in the early 70's and have seen all the amazing changes and the only think that hasn't chnaged in that time is the unpredictability of the Thai officials and new laws (or interpretations of old ones).  I welcome reading all the diverse opinions and some I laugh at but I also see people write what they think are "facts" when in reality they are just guessing.  I do apologize if I misquote someone's meaning and wish all happiness with any new tax schemes which I am sure will be coming in the not-too-distant future.

 

Even the self proclaimed tax experts who are always trying to round up scared farang sheep to extract money from their wallet......Are just guessing like every one else......

[Badrabbit]

4 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

 

Even the self proclaimed tax experts who are always trying to round up scared farang sheep to extract money from their wallet......Are just guessing like every one else......

Guess I am the only one who is worried about this, I worry about most things.

[EVENKEEL]

11 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

Incorrect.  I'll explain my reason.

 

Using an agent makes money for the agent and a corrupt payment for immigration.  It's been going on for decades.  Usually the agent has some family connection who works at immigration. 

 

I have already sourced an agent for this tax policy, but still shopping around for another agent.  I haven't pulled the trigger yet.  I'll wait until the 11th hour to file.  Throughout 2024 I minimized my remittances.  I also brought back  wad of cash from the Singapore F1, and a friend coming here for a holiday also bought over a wad of cash for me. 

 

I know I'll have to pay "something."  As I have said in the past, Thailand will get me this year.  I threw my hands up.  I stayed more than 180 days last year. 

 

Based on the cost, legit or otherwise, will determine if I continue being a tax resident of Thailand, or cease my tax residency by only staying 179 days this year.  

 

If none of it happens, than nothing to pay, carry on as normal, great.  If they are serious about it, they'll get me this year, but then I will know where I stand and will make plans accordingly. 

Sounds like you're a tax refugee. Good luck.

[The Cyclist]

11 hours ago, oldcpu said:

That is nothing more than opinion. 

 

Here is a fact, that I have previously given you.

 

CRS Countries, inc, Canada, the UK, Australia, NZ, France and Germany all require foreign income to be declared.

 

Just for a laugh, I went to the list of CRS Countries and picked out the economic leviathan known as Kenya.

 

This is what DeLoittes has to say about Kenya

 

Quote

Non-citizen residents must include their after-tax foreign-source employment income in their Kenya taxable income. Taxable income: Income tax is imposed on all income accruing in or derived from Kenya. Employment income is defined broadly and includes amounts paid outside Kenya.

 

You are free to work your way through the list of CRS Countries, and try and identify a CRS Country, where you do not have to declare foreign income.

 

But there is still people who think that this will not happen in Thailand and that Thailand is going to be the odd man out, out of over 130 Countries.

 

The only question that needs answering is, Are the forms going to be available before March 31 or will it be next year before it happens.

[Antti]

22 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Here is a fact, that I have previously given you.

 

CRS Countries, inc, Canada, the UK, Australia, NZ, France and Germany all require foreign income to be declared.

 

Just for a laugh, I went to the list of CRS Countries and picked out the economic leviathan known as Kenya.

 

This is what DeLoittes has to say about Kenya

 

 

You are free to work your way through the list of CRS Countries, and try and identify a CRS Country, where you do not have to declare foreign income.

 

But there is still people who think that this will not happen in Thailand and that Thailand is going to be the odd man out, out of over 130 Countries.

 

The only question that needs answering is, Are the forms going to be available before March 31 or will it be next year before it happens.

 

You are confusing two things here. CRS and worldwide taxation. In these countries you have to declare foreign income because these countries have a worldwide tax system. It has nothing to do with CRS. If you want to find an example of a country that is in CRS and doesn't require tax residents to declare foreign income then look into countries that are in CRS and don't tax foreign income. Such as Singapore for example. This quote is from Singapore government website: "Generally, you do not need to pay tax or report overseas income received in Singapore, including income deposited into a Singapore bank account.".

 

https://www.iras.gov.sg/taxes/individual-income-tax/basics-of-individual-income-tax/what-is-taxable-what-is-not/income-received-from-overseas

[The Cyclist]

1 minute ago, Antti said:

You are confusing two things here. CRS and worldwide taxation

 

No, I'm not.

 

I'm highlighting that the only way Tax Evasion and Tax Compliance can be checked, is by reporting / declaring foreign income.

 

" It's all kosher Guv, honest " doesn't apply in an International setting ( CRS )

[oldcpu]

9 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

Yes.

 

An agent.

 

No, nor do I care.  The agent has told me they will deal with it all. 

 

As said before, they very well may sting me this year, but not next year.  I'll give them a chance. 

 

Don't know, don't care.  That's why I will pay an agent. 

 

 

I have elderly (in the mid-70s to early 80s)  friends on type-O non-immigrant visa who purely for the convenience  use an agent (where they meet all immigration requirements but they don't want to suffer through lines or waits at immigration).  I don't begrudge them that and I believe for them such is a good idea.

 

I note you also use an agent to avoid the 800k in the bank - I won't repeat my reply there that I posted elsewhere on that aspect.

 

But if one is thinking of an agent strictly because they want to avoid obtaining a Thailand tax clearance certificate, my view is that it is premature to look for an agent for that reason.  A number of reports of expats who have very recently gone for 1-year extensions on their permission to  stay (on their underlying type-O visa) have noted there was no requirement for such a certificate. So its premature to look for agent to handle a 'tax clearance certificate" aspect.

[Antti]

1 minute ago, The Cyclist said:

 

No, I'm not.

 

I'm highlighting that the only way Tax Evasion and Tax Compliance can be checked, is by reporting / declaring foreign income.

 

" It's all kosher Guv, honest " doesn't apply in an International setting ( CRS )

 

Well it seems to work for Singapore. If it's good enough for Singapore then surely it is good enough for Thailand.

[oldcpu]

34 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

You are free to work your way through the list of CRS Countries, and try and identify a CRS Country, where you do not have to declare foreign income.

 

 

 

I previously posted, this has nothing to do with CRS.  Canada was taxing global income (for Canadian residents) as far back as 1972 when I first started filing Canadian income tax return.  It was decades later before Canada became involved with OECD / CRS (2015 in case curious).  You are confusing different things here.

 

Again -where is your official OECD reference here?  Don't waste your time looking. There is none.

[The Cyclist]

6 minutes ago, Antti said:

 

Well it seems to work for Singapore. If it's good enough for Singapore then surely it is good enough for Thailand.

 

Does it ?
 

How many retiree expats are living in Singapore ?
 

Most Expats in Singapore are working / employed and probably do not remit foreign income into Singapore.

 

If they do remit foreign income into Singapore, some of it is taxable and some of it is not. I think you would have to declare it, to be on the safe side of what is taxable and what is not taxable.

[Yumthai]

12 hours ago, oldcpu said:

I don't think the Phuket RD (to which Bangkok RD delegated this to) cares less about CRS for individuals.

And they rightly do as CRS rules only concern financial institutions not individuals.

[The Cyclist]

6 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

I previously posted, this has nothing to do with CRS.  Canada was taxing global income (for Canadian residents) as far back as 1972 when I first started filing Canadian income tax return.

 

OK, lets try this.

 

Taxing and Reporting / Declaring are 2 different things.

 

I could report / declare my annual remittance into Thailand every year until the day I die, and not pay a penny in tax to Thailand.

 

Does that help you understand the difference.

 

 

[oldcpu]

4 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

OK, lets try this.

 

Taxing and Reporting / Declaring are 2 different things.

 

I could report / declare my annual remittance into Thailand every year until the day I die, and not pay a penny in tax to Thailand.

 

Does that help you understand the difference.

 

 

 

So - you have no reference.  You fail to post such.

 

I want to point out to EVERYONE else reading this thread, that Cyclist is simply fabricating a CRS requirement that does not exist, because he believes such makes sense.

 

I recommend any who are seriously considering what he states ,to go research this , so you can better appreciate the fabrication (ie incorrect statement) of  CRS (over reach) requirement that Cyclist claims.

[The Cyclist]

1 minute ago, oldcpu said:

I want to point out to EVERYONE else reading this thread, that Cyclist is simply fabricating a CRS requirement that does not exist, because he believes such makes sense.

 

Ohhhhhh

 

Hi @anchadian

 

Desperate much ?

[oldcpu]

12 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

And they rightly do as CRS rules only concern financial institutions not individuals.

 

Not entirely - but there is nothing in CRS rules about requiring countries to report individual's global income.  Further, CRS rules even exempt government regulated accounts for individuals.