Thai tax tangle: Expats warned of new rules on overseas income

[The Cyclist]

12 minutes ago, JimGant said:

My god, man -- what are you smoking?

 

Nothing.

 

RD Code Section 40 : Assessable income

 

RD Code Section 40 Part ( 1 ) States Pensions.

 

Got that ? Do you need to go and read it for yourself ?

 

Right, now that you agree.

 

If Pensions were not assessable in Thailand for tax purposes. Why would you even put them in a DTA ?
 

But we do know, that due to DTA's  ( Not the Revenue Code ) that Pensions fall mainly into 2 Categories.

 

1 Pensions that are exempt Thai Taxation, and only taxable in issuing Country.

 

2. Pensions that are subject to Primary  / Secondary taxation rights, which may be taxed in thailand.

 

The Revenue Code states that pensions are assessable income

 

DTA's dictate whether that Pension is taxable in Thailand.

 

DTA's do not change the fact that according to Revenue Code, Section 40, Part ( 1 ) Pensions are assessable income.

 

So if your remitted Pension is above the 120k / 220k baht filing threshold, you should be filing a tax return.

 

What happened in the past, is no guarantee that the same will happen in the future.

[Badrabbit]

33 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Did you get that in writing?

Yea gave me a bit of paper written on it is,

You do not pay tax in Thailand.

Signed 

The head man.

 

[oldcpu]

24 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Nothing.

 

RD Code Section 40 : Assessable income

 

RD Code Section 40 Part ( 1 ) States Pensions.

 

Got that ? Do you need to go and read it for yourself ?

 

Right, now that you agree.

 

If Pensions were not assessable in Thailand for tax purposes. Why would you even put them in a DTA ?
 

But we do know, that due to DTA's  ( Not the Revenue Code ) that Pensions fall mainly into 2 Categories.

 

1 Pensions that are exempt Thai Taxation, and only taxable in issuing Country.

 

2. Pensions that are subject to Primary  / Secondary taxation rights, which may be taxed in thailand.

 

The Revenue Code states that pensions are assessable income

 

DTA's dictate whether that Pension is taxable in Thailand.

 

DTA's do not change the fact that according to Revenue Code, Section 40, Part ( 1 ) Pensions are assessable income.

 

So if your remitted Pension is above the 120k / 220k baht filing threshold, you should be filing a tax return.

 

What happened in the past, is no guarantee that the same will happen in the future.

If I understand your opinion, you believe that a Thai tax resident's foreign pension must be included on a Thai tax form ( if pension remitted to Thailand), even if a specific DTA with the source country of that pension has Thailand agreement that the pension is exempt Thailand tax. ie Thailand has no rights to tax.

Please explain then why there is NO place on the 2023 Thailand tax forms ( neither Thai nor English language forms) for such income to be listed as tax exempt per the DTA that Thailand signed up to?

Why would Thailand deliberately omit such?

[The Cyclist]

1 minute ago, oldcpu said:

If I understand your opinion, you believe that a Thai tax resident's foreign pension must be included on a Thai tax form,

 

I didn't mention a tax form in the that entire comment.

 

I stated what the Revenue Code, Section 40 and Part ( 1 ) says
 

I also mused, that if Pensions were not assessable income in Thailand, why are they even covered in DTA's, no need apparently, as Pensions are supposedly non assessable for tax purposes in Thailand.

 

I have also said on numerous occasions, I will await the updated paperwork from the RD before I make a decision on whether to file or not.

 

I have also said on numerous occasions, that I would not be surprised to see something like a PND 192 Foreign Income Form, make an appearance when the updated paperwork is issued and uploaded to the RD website.

 

7 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

Please explain then why there is NO place on the 2023 Thailand tax forms ( neither Thai nor English language forms) for such income to be listed as tax exempt per the DTA that Thailand signed up to?

 

Well that would be fairly simple to explain. Things only changed as of the 01 Jan 2024, and will continue to evolve on an annual basis.

[lordgrinz]

1 minute ago, The Cyclist said:

Well that would be fairly simple to explain. Things only changed as of the 01 Jan 2024, and will continue to evolve on an annual basis.

 

Yes, next stop worldwide income, but that looks like 2026 at the earliest, if at all. But I still see that as the only real workable solution, so I am assuming this new (impractical to enforce) remittance interpretation will go quietly this year and maybe next, then with worldwide income comes the ballbuster approach to compliance. 

[saintdomingo]

22 hours ago, Jingthing said:

You're thinking of something else.

I'm talking about the very low thresholds that require FILING.

Many people are required to file that will owe zero tax.

Thanks to the allowance of 190,000 baht for over 65s plus the up to 100,000 for pension payment, plus 5% for the first 150,000 I will owe nearly zero tax. With the way sterling is going it may well be zero.

[The Cyclist]

1 minute ago, lordgrinz said:

 

Yes, next stop worldwide income, but that looks like 2026 at the earliest, if at all. But I still see that as the only real workable solution, so I am assuming this new (impractical to enforce) remittance interpretation will go quietly this year and maybe next, then with worldwide income comes the ballbuster approach to compliance. 

 

Sure, that is perfectly feasible, but the point that many are refusing to see or believe, is that change is coming.

[oldcpu]

27 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

I didn't mention a tax form in the that entire comment.

 

True. But the omission of an exempt Section in the tax form for DTA exempt income is part of the discussion of an opposing view to yours.

 

 

27 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

I stated what the Revenue Code, Section 40 and Part ( 1 ) says
 

I also mused, that if Pensions were not assessable income in Thailand, why are they even covered in DTA's, no need apparently, as Pensions are supposedly non assessable for tax purposes in Thailand.

 

I have also said on numerous occasions, I will await the updated paperwork from the RD before I make a decision on whether to file or not.

 

That's fair.  I structured my finances with a similar motive in mind.

 

27 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

I have also said on numerous occasions, that I would not be surprised to see something like a PND 192 Foreign Income Form, make an appearance when the updated paperwork is issued and uploaded to the RD website.

 

Interesting.  I would be surprised. But given TIT if it happens it won't be the 1st time that I have been surprised. 

 

 

27 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Well that would be fairly simple to explain. Things only changed as of the 01 Jan 2024, and will continue to evolve on an annual basis.

 

Not really ... foreign Pensions for tax residents of Thailand have been around for years. It has always been the case that if a Thai tax resident remits income into Thailand in the year earned it is taxable,  unless a DTA says otherwise. 

 

So IF ( per your view) it's always been that such foreign Pensions should be included on a Thai tax form (if remitted to Thailand in the year of earning) there should be a place to list such pensions as exempt per specific DTA.

 

, ...yet going back to 2017 Thai tax forms ( I looked at each one from 2017 to 2023) there is no place to list exempt pension income per a DTA.

 

There is more to this. This is not 100% new.

 

So again I ask, why has Thailand deliberately omitted a place to list as an exemption such DTA tax exempt income on the Thai tax forms,  going back years?

 

Why?

[JimGant]

32 minutes ago, MartinL said:

All these reports of TIN refusal because of already-taxed pensions means I'm leaning towards the belief that the RD has told local tax offices that such pensions are not to be taxed further but that bit of info. hasn't been publicly announced for some reason

I think you've nailed it. Remember at the beginning of this goat rope, back in Sept 2023, where this was the prominent headline:

 

Quote

"Also exempt will be those who have been taxed in a foreign country that has a standing Double Tax Agreement with Thailand."

https://www.thaienquirer.com/50744/thai-government-to-tax-all-income-from-abroad-for-tax-residents-starting-2024/

 

What could be a better solution to simplifying DTA language? Just declare that home countries always have primary taxation authority on home country pensions -- and Thailand has secondary taxation authority, when the home country doesn't exercise its primary taxation authority. This doesn't in any way compromise the spirit of a DTA, since the principal of no double taxation is still adhered to. It would, of course, have to rely on self-assessment, as any enforcement would only come from random compliance audits (which may not even exist). But, now, if your home country doesn't tax your pension, Thailand has a hook for you. Easy to ignore, if integrity is not your thing.

 

Anyway, it really does seem that this early guidance by TRD became mantra with all (or many) of the sub TRD offices. Would be nice if the head daddy rabbit at TRD could reiterate this policy to the rest of us....

 

[JimGant]

52 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

DTA's do not change the fact that according to Revenue Code, Section 40, Part ( 1 ) Pensions are assessable income.

You ARE smoking something....!

[oldcpu]

3 minutes ago, JimGant said:

-- and Thailand has secondary taxation authority, when the home country doesn't exercise its primary taxation authority. This doesn't in any way compromise the spirit of a DTA, since the principal of no double taxation is still adhered to.

 

 

Not in every DTA case. 

 

Some DTA make it clear that only the source country of a pension can tax such pension. In such case, per DTA. Thailand has no secondary tax authority for the specified pension.

[The Cyclist]

2 minutes ago, JimGant said:

You ARE smoking something....!

 

Nope, and if you go back here

 

5 minutes ago, JimGant said:

I think you've nailed it. Remember at the beginning of this goat rope, back in Sept 2023, where this was the prominent headline:

 

I also said that a blanket statement from the RD along the lines of " All pensions / income already taxed " will be exempt, is all that is needed to shut this crap up, which would have been in the Ocr - Dec 2023 period.

 

The silence from the RD, tells me something different is about to land 😀😀

 

 

[oldcpu]

1 minute ago, The Cyclist said:

 

I also said that a blanket statement from the RD along the lines of " All pensions / income already taxed " will be exempt, is all that is needed to shut this crap up, which would have been in the Ocr - Dec 2023 period.

 

The silence from the RD, tells me something different is about to land 😀😀

 

 

 

There is no change re taxation of foreign sourced Pensions remitted to Thailand in year of income. 

 

So RD has then been silent going back to 2017 at least  ( I didn't look at tax forms before then).

 

Frankly,  the RD silence suggests such DTA exempt income is not to be included in a Thai tax form. .. as has been the case for years.

[The Cyclist]

19 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

Interesting.  I would be surprised. But given TIT if it happens it won't be the 1st time that I have been surprised. 

 

Why would anyone be surprised ? Without a reporting and oversight mechanism, you have nothing.

 

As anyone who has held a senior management position knows only too well.

 

Easiest thing in the world, and kill multiple birds with one stone. Foreign tax residents file this form.

 

* List Your income.

 

* List your taxes  paid elsewhere.

 

* List any DTA that you wish to utilise.

 

Why go to the hassle of changing PND 90 & 91, which is for employed people. When you can issue a separate form for foreign tax residents, who are not employed within Thailand.

 

So simple, I would be amazed if the RD has not already thought of it.

[The Cyclist]

14 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

Frankly,  the RD silence suggests such DTA exempt income is not to be included in a Thai tax form. .. as has been the case for years.

 

Try looking at it this way

 

How many foreigners going back decades have never filed a Thai tax return, even though it is possible that they had income that should have been taxed.

 

I got the same story when I first came here over 15 years ago. No work in Thailand, no pay taxes.

 

Done and dusted.

 

The World has moved on and what happened in the past is no indication of what will happen in the future.

[smew]

21 hours ago, JimGant said:

Does your country's DTA not protect against double taxation? Or are you confusing finally having to pay taxes to someone -- as double taxation? Many on this forum are whining, 'cause they're in the latter situation. Breaks my heart.

Why should I pay Thai tax when I get nothing out of this country, no police protection, no basic medical, no schooling, in fact I contribute to the local economy in a big way. 

[MikeandDow]

Amazing Thailand !  this is typical Thai BS,  total  confusion ! the Thais will not even know !  and i bet that each individual  tax office will have there own interpertation.

[redwood1]

51 minutes ago, lordgrinz said:

 

Yes, next stop worldwide income, but that looks like 2026 at the earliest, if at all. But I still see that as the only real workable solution, so I am assuming this new (impractical to enforce) remittance interpretation will go quietly this year and maybe next, then with worldwide income comes the ballbuster approach to compliance. 

 

I did some reading up on the world wide income tax.........And I found out the whole thing is a big mess.....There is a whole lot of disagreement between countries about who get what and how much....And the USA is pretty much refusing to join......

 

The whole thing could collapse at any time...

 

Its FAR FAR FAR from a sure thing.....

 

I guarantee it wont happen for a number of years if at all. 

 

 2025, 2026, 2027 You can forget these years IT IS NOT HAPPENING.

 

 

 

 

[JimGant]

30 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

Some DTA make it clear that only the source country of a pension can tax such pension. In such case, per DTA. Thailand has no secondary tax authority for the specified pension.

Well, Thailand could override their DTAs, as long as the spirit of no double taxation isn't violated. A perfect example is the "saving clause" in all US DTAs, which gives the US secondary taxation rights on most income. For example, the US-Thai DTA gives "exclusive" taxation rights to Thailand on my private pension remittances. However, the "saving clause" override allows the US secondary taxation rights on this income.

 

Not saying Thailand would claim secondary taxation rights on those incomes the DTA says are only taxable by the home country -- if the home country decides not to tax them. This statement can have various interpretations, IMO:

Quote

"Also exempt will be those who have been taxed in a foreign country that has a standing Double Tax Agreement with Thailand."

 Maybe they're saying, "We're not interested in foreign pensions taxed in the home country. But if they're not, we'll revert back to the language of the specific DTA." Which would exclude secondary taxation rights in some cases, like govt pensions.

 

Anyway, who knows. Just sounds like a workaround to ease matters on taxing foreign pensions. Would be nice if they reiterated this position.

 

Here's some language on treaty overrides:

 

Quote

The ability of some countries to unilaterally change, or "override;' their tax treaties through domestic legislation has frequently been identified as a serious threat to the bilateral tax treaty network. In most countries, treaties (including tax treaties) have a status superior to that of ordinary domestic laws (see, e.g. France, Germany, the Netherlands). However, in some countries (primarily the US, but also to some extent the UK and Australia) treaties can be changed unilaterally by subsequent domestic legislation.

https://repository.law.umich.edu/book_chapters/330/

 

[WebGuy]

13 hours ago, JackGats said:

It is correct for the time being, ie as long as something new like taxation on world-wide income doesn't arise. Your remittances while you hold an LTR visa are tax-free (which doesn't mean you are not required to file taxes and mention said remittances in your filing).

Thank you for your answer. 

However, I assume that being on LTR means I can't apply for Thai citizenship. Right?

 

If the above is right, I have a dilemma i.e. I can stay on non-immigrant O marriage visa, pay taxes and have the WP for 3 consecutive years and then apply for Thai citizenship or go for LTR and to not pay for taxes but not being eligible to apply for Thai citizenship. Did I get it right? 

[redwood1]

6 minutes ago, WebGuy said:

Thank you for your answer. 

However, I assume that being on LTR means I can't apply for Thai citizenship. Right?

 

If the above is right, I have a dilemma i.e. I can stay on non-immigrant O marriage visa, pay taxes and have the WP for 3 consecutive years and then apply for Thai citizenship or go for LTR and to not pay for taxes but not being eligible to apply for Thai citizenship. Did I get it right? 

 

I am no expert on getting Thai Citizenship...

But I do know being able to show past years tax returns is very important part of the application requirements...

Along with a very long long list of other things.....

[NoDisplayName]

4 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Sure, Section 40 says assessable income,

 

Part ( 1 ) says Pensions

 

Subject to Thai taxation. The Revenue Code was written in Gawd knows what year, but long before 1980.

 

In the 80's along came DTA's ( International Agreements.) which detailed Pensions as

 

1. Only taxable in Source Country

 

2. Country A has primary or secondary taxation rights

 

3. Country B has primary or secondary taxation rights.

 

And if some pensions are taxable, and some pensions are not taxable, ( Due to DTA's  and not the Revenue Code ) then they would need to be declared on a tax filing to ensure that people were not lying about the source of their pension, and engaging in tax evasion.

 

It's a straightforward concept. Thailand is changing, whether we like it or not, and the good old days of having it easy are fading fast.

 

So you're still pushing your CRS nonsense.

 

No, dear, you do NOT declare non-assessable income.

 

Why?  Because exempting non-assessable income on the tax forms is unpossible.

 

Give it up, dawg. 

[oldcpu]

51 minutes ago, WebGuy said:

Thank you for your answer. 

However, I assume that being on LTR means I can't apply for Thai citizenship. Right?

 

If the above is right, I have a dilemma i.e. I can stay on non-immigrant O marriage visa, pay taxes and have the WP for 3 consecutive years and then apply for Thai citizenship or go for LTR and to not pay for taxes but not being eligible to apply for Thai citizenship. Did I get it right? 

 

I take from that your goal is to become a Thai citizen.  That might incur even more tax on you, dependent on the DTA of your source company income.

 

I don't think LTR would delay any effort to become a Thai citizen.  If that is a 'blocking' point/concern for you, just pick up the phone and call BoI and ask them.  The experience of many (from the LTR visa thread on Aseannow) is that Boi are very responsive to phone call queries.

[The Cyclist]

11 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

So you're still pushing your CRS nonsense.

 

What has CRS got to do with

 

Quote

Sure, Section 40 says assessable income,

 

Part ( 1 ) says Pensions

 

 

Or are you trying to deny that is what the Revenue code states ?

 

Quote

Section 40 Assessable income is income of the following categories including any amount of tax paid by the payer of income or by any other person on behalf of a taxpayer.

 

You can read and comprehend the above paragraph on assessable income, yes ?
 

Quote

(1) Income derived from employment, whether in the form of salary, wage, per diem, bonus, bounty, gratuity, pension, house rent allowance, monetary value of rent-free residence provided by an employer, payment of debt liability of an employee made by an employer, or any money, property or benefit derived from employment.⁴

 

You can see the word Pension that I have put in bold, yes ?

 

So pensions are in fact assessable income that should be tax filed if they exceed 120k / 220k Baht a year, and you are a tax resident of Thailand.

 

Thai taxation with regards to those Pension payments follows 2 paths.

 

1. Exempt Taxation, by dint of a DTA.

 

2. Taxable, or below taxation levels by dint of TEDA's and Tax credits.

 

You don't get to pick the parts from the Revenue Code and DTA's that you think best suit your own personal circumstances, on getting around paying tax.

[NoDisplayName]

1 hour ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Nope, and if you go back here

 

 

I also said that a blanket statement from the RD along the lines of " All pensions / income already taxed " will be exempt, is all that is needed to shut this crap up, which would have been in the Ocr - Dec 2023 period.

 

The silence from the RD, tells me something different is about to land 😀😀

 

 

 

Blanket statement?

 

Thailand has DTA's with only 57 countries.  Some DTA's permit Thailand to tax, some only the source country, some apparently both may tax, possibly allowing for credits.  What of the other 140 or so countries, what about autonomous regions and territories?  What about Musk's Mars base, and the Nazi regime on the dark side of the moon?

 

Blanket statements, and journalists misinterpreting them to create interesting headlines, is what got us here in the first place.

 

Nearly a quarter of this year's tax filing season has already passed. 

Nothing is going to land.

[oldcpu]

1 hour ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Why would anyone be surprised ? Without a reporting and oversight mechanism, you have nothing.

 

 

Why ? Because nothing has changed.  Tax returns were also required in the past for those who remitted pension income into Thailand in the year in which it was earned.

 

What did RD do then?  Nothing.  What did RD say?  Nothing.  Was RD silent?  Yes.

 

And since then ? They said nothing.

 

What makes this time so different? Its NOT CRS.  Its not Por-161/162. 

 

If Thailand RD was silent in the past, i anticipate the same in the future.

 

But - this is just a discussion.  Perhaps when 2024 English language tax forms come out we will see (although I suspect even then you won't be convinced)..  Note that the 2024 Thai language tax forms say NOTHING about DTA exemptions.  Neither do the 2025 Thai language tax forms say anything about DTA exemptions from what i could see in a translation.

[oldcpu]

1 hour ago, JimGant said:

Well, Thailand could override their DTAs, as long as the spirit of no double taxation isn't violated.

 

Sure - and we both could be run over on the road by a truck tomorrow.

 

One can only plan best one can on what is in place today - and what strong evidence states might happen tomorrow.  But I have seen no evidence that Thailand intends to attempt to override any DTAs.

[The Cyclist]

Just now, oldcpu said:

Why ? Because nothing has changed.  Tax returns were also required in the past for those who remitted pension income into Thailand in the year in which it was earned.

 

Odd, 13 years my pension has been paid direct to Thailand and never filed a tax return, or even considered filing a tax return.

 

Neither have I ever heard of a retiree expat filing a tax return over the last 15 years or so.

 

Previously nobody gave a sh*t. That is changing.

 

What has changed, for me anyway, and probably most others is the push on the 180 day tax residency.

[oldcpu]

15 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Odd, 13 years my pension has been paid direct to Thailand and never filed a tax return, or even considered filing a tax return.

 

Neither have I ever heard of a retiree expat filing a tax return over the last 15 years or so.

 

Previously nobody gave a sh*t. That is changing.

 

What has changed, for me anyway, and probably most others is the push on the 180 day tax residency.

 

What is the source country of your pension?   Is it a civil service pension? is it a government pension that the average person receives?  Is it a pension that comes from a company where you  contributed part to the pension fund (while working) ?  Or from a company where the company contributed all? and what does the DTA say?

 

Dependent on the DTA those are all relevant questions as to whether the income taxable.  And if not taxable, why should the RD waste time going after an individual (who owes no tax) when there are bigger fish for RD to chase after?

[NoDisplayName]

6 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

But - this is just a discussion.  Perhaps when 2024 English language tax forms come out we will see (although I suspect even then you won't be convinced)..  Note that the 2024 Thai language tax forms say NOTHING about DTA exemptions.  Neither do the 2025 Thai language tax forms say anything about DTA exemptions from what i could see in a translation.

 

According to the regulations, we only declare assessable income, which in most cases means claiming DTA benefits is accomplished by the taxpayer self-determining what is and what is not taxable by Thailand, and NOT declaring income that is exempt.

 

If not exempt, assessable income is declared.  If over the taxpayer's TEDA, tax may be due.

 

In rare instances a taxpayer may need to claim benefits under their DTA where it is not clear that the income is exempt.  The tax forms do not allow for this, so an in-person filing is required, potentially needing paid representation.  Tax office intervention is required, with a tax officially manually adjusting the filing.