Thai tax tangle: Expats warned of new rules on overseas income

[NoDisplayName]

Well, now we're all screwed!

 

According to a fresh video released 2 hours ago from a recognized legal beagle source, we now will all have to get new TINs in order to file taxes!

 

Yes, the TRD requires taxpayers to get a 10-digit tax ID number.

 

He says it right there at 2:06 in the video.  Plain as day.

 

Friggin' TRD, changing the rules in the middle of tax season!  I din't believe it at first, but gosh, it's a video on U-Tube, and the tax-spurt is wearing a jacket.  And just look at that fancy tax-free watch!

 

Could this be yet another CRS requirement?

 

Personally, I think they made this latest change to correspond to the new 2024 tax forms expected any day now.

 

 

 

[Yumthai]

21 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

Thailand is implementing CRS this year.  The banks have to get THEIR records in order.  That means all non-Thai customers will have to fill out a form

Foreign and Thai customers as well. Or are you implying that Thai banks will discriminatorily assume that Thai people can't hold other tax residences nor bank accounts outside of Thailand (thus their Thai bank accounts don't need to be reported to other countries)?

[oldcpu]

7 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

Yes, the TRD requires taxpayers to get a 10-digit tax ID number.

 

I think all agree that tax residents in Thailand with assessable income from within Thailand or remitted to Thailand from any earnings after 31 Dec 2023, ,  over the required assessble income threshold , need to apply for a Thai TIN and submit a tax return.

 

But some of these videos have me shaking my head ..

 

Maybe they reduced the # of numbers in the falang TIN from 13 to 10 to save money? lol .. After all, all Thai know falang can hardly count to 10, much less to 13. lol

 

7 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

Could this be yet another CRS requirement?

 

.. or maybe it's due Trump being president, and AI stocks falling .. due the moon almost being a full moon .. and .. and .. ... lol.

 

Apologies.  The devil made me post this.

[JackGats]

23 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

Well, now we're all screwed!

 

According to a fresh video released 2 hours ago from a recognized legal beagle source, we now will all have to get new TINs in order to file taxes!

 

Yes, the TRD requires taxpayers to get a 10-digit tax ID number.

 

He says it right there at 2:06 in the video.  Plain as day.

 

Friggin' TRD, changing the rules in the middle of tax season!  I din't believe it at first, but gosh, it's a video on U-Tube, and the tax-spurt is wearing a jacket.  And just look at that fancy tax-free watch!

 

Could this be yet another CRS requirement?

 

Personally, I think they made this latest change to correspond to the new 2024 tax forms expected any day now.

 

 

 

10-digit number? I have a Thai TIN. It has 13 digits, which is confirmd on this website:

 

https://org-id.guide/list/TH-TIN

 

Quote: "The government site still mentions a 10-digit number but the law changed in 2012 and the TIN is now 13 digits long".

 

So this Siam Legal guy does not even get this simple fact right?

[NoDisplayName]

14 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

Foreign and Thai customers as well. Or are you implying that Thai banks will discriminatorily assume that Thai people can't hold other tax residences nor bank accounts outside of Thailand (thus their Thai bank accounts don't need to be reported to other countries)?

 

I'm assuming only foreigners, and that Thais in foreign countries or with foreign accounts will have to identify their Thai tax jurisdiction on the CRS forms from the foreign financial institutions.

 

My wife did not receive that email from Kasikorn, but she did have to fill out a W8-BEN, and I a W-9, when we opened Schwab Intl accounts last week.

[NoDisplayName]

13 minutes ago, JackGats said:

 

So this Siam Legal guy does not even get this simple fact right?

 

Look, it's a brand-new, 3-hour old video, the man is wearing a gold watch and a fancy jacket, for CRS-sakes!

 

You have to want to believe.

 

Otherwise, you might mention that the TRD website still lists the single payer allowance is 30K...................

[Yumthai]

9 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

I'm assuming only foreigners, and that Thais in foreign countries or with foreign accounts will have to identify their Thai tax jurisdiction on the CRS forms from the foreign financial institutions.

CRS rules apply to FIs, FIs should apply CRS requirements to all their customers regardless of their citizenship. That's the case worldwide.

Now, who knows how Thailand will operate.

[OneManShow]

I thought perhaps these duc will be useful for those who are from "double tax treaty" countries. 
 

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/user_upload/lorkhor/newspr/2024/FOREIGNERS_PAY_TAX2024.pdf
 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/38361.html 

 

 

[Gknrd]

So much for retiring to Thailand for a relaxed and stress free retirement. 

Kinda curious when the next hammer will fall!  Looks like every couple of years they come up with another plan to squeeze the expats and separate them from their retirement funds..

[DrPhibes]

4 hours ago, Yumthai said:

CRS rules apply to FIs, FIs should apply CRS requirements to all their customers regardless of their citizenship. That's the case worldwide.

Now, who knows how Thailand will operate.

I'm a US citizen.  The United States is not part of CRS, they have FATCA.  Financial information of US citizens with accounts in Thailand will have their info shared with the US by Thai institutions.  Thai citizens with accounts in the US will have their info shared with Thailand.  The US will not share US citizen US accounts with Thailand.  I will not sign anything having to do with CRS.

[DrPhibes]

3 hours ago, OneManShow said:

I thought perhaps these duc will be useful for those who are from "double tax treaty" countries. 
 

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/user_upload/lorkhor/newspr/2024/FOREIGNERS_PAY_TAX2024.pdf
 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/38361.html 

 

 

I'm not submitting my US tax returns to the Thai revenue dept in order to support a tax credit under DTA.  Looks like staying under 180 days in Thailand us my only option.

[ukrules]

14 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

All income earned after 01 jan 2024 and remitted in 2024, is assessable income.

 

If you were a Thai tax resident during the year it was earned of course.

 

Which is where the trap is set - someone sells their house next month (Feb 2025), moves to Thailand  in March 2025 and remits say 10 million Baht and remains for the rest of the year looking for a house or condo to purchase will be hit with a large and likely unexpected bill.

Best to make sure all potential retirees are aware of this and they never send large sums in a year they made the money, especially if it was zero taxed, like in the case of selling your main residence back in the UK.....If they've already been taxed to death in Europe then they should be good 🤣

 

[khagai1]

On 1/15/2025 at 10:27 AM, MikeandDow said:

 Yes, you can use a credit or debit card to pay in US$ in Thailand, but you should be aware of fees and exchange rates.

Almost every time I have paid at Bumrungrad with a credit card, I have been asked whether I wanted in dollars or baht. I have always paid in baht because the exchange rate, if you pay in dollars, is terrible and you lose quite a bit of money if the bill is substantial.

[Presnock]

On 1/27/2025 at 7:38 PM, NoDisplayName said:

 

Are you sure about that?

 

According to the handout from Chiang Mai TRD, foreign documents must be certified by the Thai embassy in Thailand.

 

Remember, we've been assured that TRD folks don't make misteaks.

Did they provide the address of the "THAI" Embassy in Thailand?

[The Cyclist]

4 hours ago, ukrules said:

Which is where the trap is set - someone sells their house next month (Feb 2025), moves to Thailand  in March 2025 and remits say 10 million Baht and remains for the rest of the year looking for a house or condo to purchase will be hit with a large and likely unexpected bill.

 

Yes, it seems pretty clear to me. If you are going to remit a large amount of money, remit it in a year you deliberately make yourself a non Resident for tax purposes of Thailand.

[The Cyclist]

New video from Benjamin

 

 

 

I agree with Benjamin, that Thailand might be better having another look, and it would probably be in Thailands best interest to withdraw from anything OECD.

 

Where I disagree with Mr Hart, Trump withdrawing from the OECD's Global Minimum Taxation, will make any difference to American retiree expats ( Unless they also happen to run a Multinational Company )

 

OECD's Global Minimum Taxation covers Multinational Companies, not retiree, tax residents of Thailand.

[Yumthai]

7 hours ago, DrPhibes said:

I'm a US citizen.  The United States is not part of CRS, they have FATCA.  Financial information of US citizens with accounts in Thailand will have their info shared with the US by Thai institutions.  Thai citizens with accounts in the US will have their info shared with Thailand.  The US will not share US citizen US accounts with Thailand.  I will not sign anything having to do with CRS.

Indeed, FATCA W-9 form is used for US persons. However, if you have additional tax residence in countries other than the US, Thai FIs should require you to fill a CRS form as well.

 

Example: MFC Asset Management FATCA/CRS Self-Certification Form

https://did-admin.mfcfund.com/Uploads//Website/Registrar/Forms_TH/d7d311c62a52.pdf

 

[EVENKEEL]

22 hours ago, redwood1 said:

 

This thread?

 

Heck this has been going on since the first page of the the first tax thread over a year ago.....There have been about 10-15 big tax threads already.. most now abandoned on this forum....

 

And not much has changed really from day #1......

If it was a story, I'd imagine the Thai news on TV would have been running with the story. The only places we see any coverage is foreigner based articles.

[redwood1]

6 hours ago, ukrules said:

 

If you were a Thai tax resident during the year it was earned of course.

 

Which is where the trap is set - someone sells their house next month (Feb 2025), moves to Thailand  in March 2025 and remits say 10 million Baht and remains for the rest of the year looking for a house or condo to purchase will be hit with a large and likely unexpected bill.

Best to make sure all potential retirees are aware of this and they never send large sums in a year they made the money, especially if it was zero taxed, like in the case of selling your main residence back in the UK.....If they've already been taxed to death in Europe then they should be good 🤣

 

 

This is one of many reasons this tax has more holes in it than swiss cheese.....Its all a bloody joke...

 

And not one person here can say I am wrong...

 

You can wire in 1,000,000,000  one billion USA dollars to Thailand stay 179 days leave and come back 6 months later and not owe a single baht in taxes ever in the future......

 

Sweet.....lol

 

And hey  this is only one of the holes in this ridiculous tax...

[The Cyclist]

19 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

If it was a story, I'd imagine the Thai news on TV would have been running with the story. The only places we see any coverage is foreigner based articles.

 

It is not a major story in Thai news circles, because it does not affect the vast majority of Thai's.

 

It only affects Thai's that remit income into Thailand from overseas.

 

Given that the vast majority of Thais affected are rich, super rich and Politicians, it makes you wonder why Thailand enacted it, in the 1st place.

 

* There will be some Thais outside those 3 that are contracting elsewhere in the World.

[The Cyclist]

9 hours ago, DrPhibes said:

I'm a US citizen.  The United States is not part of CRS

 

Correct,

 

You as an Individual ( Even an American Individual ) remitting money into a CRS Country on the other hand, is a different story.

[oldcpu]

 

1 hour ago, redwood1 said:

 

You can wire in 1,000,000,000  one billion USA dollars to Thailand stay 179 days leave and come back 6 months later and not owe a single baht in taxes ever in the future......

 

Misleading imho. 

 

Every baht ( minus basic deductions) one earns in interest in Thailand on that remitted money while in Thailand is assessable by Thailand and hence potentially taxable. If one assumes a pathetic 2% interest, that is $20,000,000 interest  that will be need to be reported and taxed in Thailand.

 

As long as that money remains in Thailand,  even if one is not a Thai tax resident,  my understanding is the interest received while the money is in Thailand, will still be taxed in Thailand, as the interest is assessed as Thai earnings. 

 

 

We have different views here.

[redwood1]

2 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

 

Misleading imho. 

 

Every baht ( minus basic deductions) one earns in interest Thailand on that remitted money in Thailand is assessable by Thailand and hence taxable. If one assumes a pathetic 2% interest, that is $2,000,000 interest  that will be need to be reported and taxed in Thailand.

 

As long as that money remains in Thailand,  even if one is not a Thai tax resident,  my understanding is the interest will still be taxed in Thailand, as the interest is assessed as Thai earnings. 

 

 

We have different views here.

 

Yes you are correct regarding taxes being owed on the interest from the principal.....But considering I am a bit short of that billion dollars, I had not thought that far ahead...lol

 

But no taxes would ever be paid on the principal itself excluding the interest paid....

[Yumthai]

9 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

Every baht ( minus basic deductions) one earns in interest in Thailand on that remitted money while in Thailand is assessable by Thailand and hence potentially taxable. If one assumes a pathetic 2% interest, that is $20,000,000 interest  that will be need to be reported and taxed in Thailand.

 

As long as that money remains in Thailand,  even if one is not a Thai tax resident,  my understanding is the interest received while the money is in Thailand, will still be taxed in Thailand, as the interest is assessed as Thai earnings. 

It's 15% tax on interest.

 

PWC:

"Interest received from bank deposits, loans to finance companies, debentures, and bills issued by a corporate entity is subject to WHT at a flat rate of 15%. Individuals may choose to exclude interest income from other income, in which case they pay the 15% WHT, or they may choose to include such interest income with other income and pay tax according to the PIT rates, in which case the tax withheld at source is credited against the tax liability."

[CallumWK]

13 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

 

Misleading imho. 

 

Every baht ( minus basic deductions) one earns in interest in Thailand on that remitted money while in Thailand is assessable by Thailand and hence potentially taxable. If one assumes a pathetic 2% interest, that is $20,000,000 interest  that will be need to be reported and taxed in Thailand.

 

As long as that money remains in Thailand,  even if one is not a Thai tax resident,  my understanding is the interest received while the money is in Thailand, will still be taxed in Thailand, as the interest is assessed as Thai earnings. 

 

 

We have different views here.

 

Nope, that interest will get taxed by withholding taxes. It isn't income

[oldcpu]

53 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

It's 15% tax on interest.

 

PWC:

"Interest received from bank deposits, loans to finance companies, debentures, and bills issued by a corporate entity is subject to WHT at a flat rate of 15%. Individuals may choose to exclude interest income from other income, in which case they pay the 15% WHT, or they may choose to include such interest income with other income and pay tax according to the PIT rates, in which case the tax withheld at source is credited against the tax liability."

 

That's interesting.  Of course one (on $20-million US$ interest) is still paying $3-million US$ in taxes likely in withholding taxes (the flat 15% rate you refer to).

 

What is most interesting, is the statement "individuals may choose to exclude interest from other income", although as to where that exclusion applies in the precise implementation is not clear to me yet.

 

Obviously these are mute and hypothetical points/discussions

 

... but given other discussions on this thread, it has me wondering, is this interest (with a flat 15% tax rate) to be included in 'assessable' income for the determination of whether a tax return is required on such a large amount of interest. 

 

Yes, the Thai tax on the interest was already withheld (by bank or financial institute) so the Thai RD have their money , ... but is it still necessary to report such on a Thai income tax form if, say, that is one's only income while a tax resident of Thailand?

 

i prefer NOT to start another heated discussion on this, but if any know the relevant section in the Thai tax code, or Royal Decree or Ministerial instruction they could point to, that would be a useful reference to keep.

[oldcpu]

51 minutes ago, CallumWK said:

 

Nope, that interest will get taxed by withholding taxes. It isn't income

 

Are semantics important here?  i read it can be excluded from other income, but does that mean it is not 'assessable' income?  (I assume that is what you mean).

[CallumWK]

6 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

Are semantics important here?  i read it can be excluded from other income, but does that mean it is not 'assessable' income?  (I assume that is what you mean).

 

Interests are not accessible income in my opinion.

[oldcpu]

4 minutes ago, CallumWK said:

 

Interests are not accessible income in my opinion.

 

It would be nice if that is the case.

 

...and I am not trying to start a debate ... I am just trying to find what the Thai RD says about this.

 

I note on the Thai web site under 2.1 "Assessable Income":  https://www.rd.go.th/english/6045.html

 

Quote

2.1(4) income in the nature of dividends, interest on deposits with banks in Thailand, shares of profits or other benefits from a juristic company, juristic partnership, or mutual fund, payments received as a result of the reduction of capital, a bonus, an increased capital holdings, gains from amalgamation, acquisition or dissolution of juristic companies or partnerships, and gains from transferring of shares or partnership holdings;

 

However that link in 3.2 goes on to note (as already pointed out):

 

Quote

 

Interest

 

The following forms of interest income may, at the taxpayer’s selection, be excluded from the computation of PIT provided that a tax of 15 per cent is withheld at source:

 

1. interest on bonds or debentures issued by a government organization;
2. interest on saving deposits in commercial banks if the aggregate amount of interest received is not more than 20,000 baht during a taxable year;
3. interest on loans paid by a finance company;
4. interest received from any financial institution organized by a specific law of Thailand for the purpose of lending money to promote agriculture, commerce or industry.

 

 

Does the "computation of PIT (personal income tax)" mean it is not to be considered as assessable income?  I think it infers that.

 

I also know there is more to 'assessable income' definition than just the tax code in isolation ... but that also Royal Decrees and Ministerial Instructions need to be considered.

 

I am curious as I have deliberately placed my funds in Thailand in low interest bearing accounts (avoiding high interest) to just barely stay below the threshold in which an income tax return needs to be filed if such (although already taxed) was considered assessable income.   I have felt the slightly higher interest I could get is not worth the PIA to file an income tax return (where obviously in evaluating 'worth' this is very very very subjective). 

 

However if withholding tax on interest means it does not feed into the 'assessable income' category, then I might shift funds to a higher interest bearing account.  ... Such higher interest might pay for a few expensive meals or more.

[Presnock]

2 hours ago, EVENKEEL said:

If it was a story, I'd imagine the Thai news on TV would have been running with the story. The only places we see any coverage is foreigner based articles.

 I totally agree.  The problem from what I notice is the failure of the Thai government through the Finance Ministry and TRD who are looking to garner additional funds through the expansion of the tax base here and have failed to keep the expats informed of any other changes to the taxe other than the 31 December 2023 change date on remittances.  Even this they have failed to advise officially by easily interviewing with news media if all foreigners MUST obtain a Thai Tax ID and file 2024 tax forms for exempted foreign income i.e. protected by DTA's, LTR exemptions, or pensions taxed already in one's home country because it is my understanding from what we have seen on this forum of members going to a local RD office and being advised that they don't qualify for a tax number because they have "exempted" income so not necessary to file tax forms so do not need a tax id.  Then we hear webinars  that give us some advice that we do need to get that tax id and file whether or not we have assessable income here even though not taxed.  I feel I will ot have to pay any Thai income tax on the funds I remit but would appreciate an official TRD interview to the press that ALL expats with ANY remitted funds needs to get a tax id and file or not.  my feelings anyway, as I like to follow any of the local rules and regulations and not just speculation.  I notice on every one of these different tax stories, one of the big problems is lac of credible information instead of GUESSES on what is expected of us.