My Thai Tax Office Tax Filing Experience...

[NoDisplayName]

9 minutes ago, OneManShow said:

It must be this one then 🤔

 

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/english_form/2023/attach9091_220367.pdf

 

That's not a tax return, it's an attachment to either paper return PN90 or PN91 to claim your exemptions and allowances.

 

This is filled out for you by the system when you file online.

 

**************

 

Hey!  No fair changing the link after I responded!

 

Now you've got the "derived from employment only" form.

 

 

[KhunHeineken]

21 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

By my reading of the UK - Thai DTA, your army pension is non-assessable in Thailand (can only be taxed in UK) but the UK state old age pension is assessable in Thailand.  So yes, to my understanding you should file, but only for the state pension income, and once the various exemptions & deductions are claimed, good chance you won't owe much if anything in tax. There is a personal exemption of 60,000 baht (120k if married and filing jointly), and if you are over 65 there is another 190,000 deduction. I have also heard, but you should verify, that 50% of pension income up to a maximum of 100k is also exempt. Then, after all these exemptions/deductions are applied, no tax is owed on the first 150k. Consequently with UK state pension as your only assessable income you'd likely owe no tax.

 

You can claim a tax credit for any taxes paid in UK (don't ask me how, from this thread it seems the promised adjustment to tax forms to include this has not occurred). The tax credit is only relevant if you would otherwise owe taxes.

+1

[Aforek]

5 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

...

 

I enter my info online, then upload my bank withholding statement, and my dividend receipts showing tax withheld.  Withholding tax is refunded.  (All Thai-sourced for me, of course)

 

How did you do ? I don't find documents online 

For PD 90 , the last one is for 2023

[NoDisplayName]

3 minutes ago, Aforek said:

How did you do ? I don't find documents online 

For PD 90 , the last one is for 2023

 

No English forms available for 2024.

File online using Thai forms only.

 

Note that 2021-2023 English paper forms did not have the year at the top, just a blank line where you enter the year.

 

I'm betting there won't be any new forms this year.

But what do I know?

[OneManShow]

40 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

Hey!  No fair changing the link after I responded!

I copied a wrong form link, I replaced it with correct form

[OneManShow]

Deleted
 

 

 

[Screaming]

There is no way I will file a Thailand tax return or apply for a TIN number. Thailand is so inept and corrupt that it is crazy to give any Thai official information on your personal finance. If push comes to shove, just hire an agent or an attorney and they will pay off the official.

[OneManShow]

29 minutes ago, Aforek said:

the last one is for 2023

It seems this one needs to be filled by you. 
no date 

 

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/english_form/2023/220367PIT90.pdf

[rocketboy2]

3 hours ago, WingNut said:

 

Good idea. that’s essentially my plan as well for now, at least until we see how things unfold over the next year.

 

When you say you’ll only bring in a maximum of 120,000, is there a specific reason for that amount? I believe the first 150,000 is already tax-exempt, plus you would have a personal allowance on top of that.

 

60,000 me 60,000 for the wife.

and no tax return needs to be filed.

Well I think that's correct.

If it's more all well and good.

 

[treetops]

31 minutes ago, OneManShow said:

It seems this one needs to be filled by you. 
no date 

 

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/english_form/2023/220367PIT90.pdf

 

I think you've put the wrong link in there and should have linked to the PND 91 form which requires the date to be filled in manually, however even on that form it has a 2023 reference in a couple of places on page 3.

[OneManShow]

9 minutes ago, treetops said:

 

I think you've put the wrong link in there and should have linked to the PND 91 form which requires the date to be filled in manually, however even on that form it has a 2023 reference in a couple of places on page 3.

Believe it or not local tax office gave me 2019  91 form and said it hasn't changed. 
this is 91 

 

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/english_form/2023/230367PIT91.pdf

[Raindancer]

45 minutes ago, rocketboy2 said:

 

60,000 me 60,000 for the wife.

and no tax return needs to be filed.

Well I think that's correct.

If it's more all well and good.

 

Here are the Personal Allowances.  Apply them to your situation. 

 

Personal Allowance for self (PA1) - 60,000

b) Personal Allowance for wife (PA2) - 60,000 ( not working/ employed)

c) Over age 65 years exemption (OAE) - 190,000

d) 50% of pension income received, up to 100k (PD) - 100,000

e) In addition, the first 150,000 of assessable income is zero rated and free of tax.

 

Hope that helps.
 

 

[ericbj]

As of 31st December last I transferred, in the course of the year, from my UK bank account to my Thai bank account a total of 299K baht.  Of this 240K+ baht (at recent FX 42B/£) can be said to come from my DWP pension and the remainder from long-term savings.

 

I have two questions for anyone able to answer them.

 

1.    I have the impression from what has been posted previously that the DWP pension is non-assessable.  Is this the case?

 

2.    What constitutes savings pre-dating 2024 ?

 

I retain as little as possible of my savings in bank accounts of whatever kind.
(I currently earn 1.6% on a 12-month deposit here in Thailand, and several years ago a fraction of 1% on a 12-month deposit in the UK - while at the same time the same UK banksters offered loans at just short of 20%.
Inflation much exceeds interest rates and this seems likely to continue until a collapse of the credit economy causes a currency shortage)

I believe in "real money" which more or less tends to retain its purchasing power over centuries, even allowing for transitory value depression caused by manipulation of the futures markets [Comex and LBMA] by the big commercial banks.
Government "printing presses" have latterly been working overtime to flood the markets with their fiat currencies; since high inflation rates (possibly hyperinflation) are the only obvious way of reducing soaring indebtedness.

 

Most of my store of value is in real money, with a smaller proportion invested in companies linked in some way to the laborious and costly extraction of this real wealth.  A small portion of my 'store of value' has been liquidated this past year in order meet costly outpatient hospital operations and related expenses such as travel + hotels + restaurants.

 

My question: can the proceeds of assets acquired pre-2024 and then sold during 2024 be regarded as savings pre-dating 2024, and therefore non-assessable ?

------------
Personal experience of Tax Office visits:

 

I visited my local tax office on the 11th December to register for tax, bringing with me a bank savings-account book showing remittances from overseas.  However after a prolonged interview with what seemed to be someone fairly senior, conducted largely by his tapping on a keyboard in Thai questions and answers that were then displayed on a computer screen in English.  He seemed to think that if one is not employed in Thailand and does not have a business here, there were no grounds for requesting a TIN.  He did say that he would photocopy my passport and bankbook.  But in fact did not do so.  After this fruitless interview had dragged on for seemingly eternity I excused myself and departed, saying that I would return.

 

Yesterday, 30th January, I returned accompanied by a Thai friend, once again showing my passport and bank-book.  The interview took a long time, the request to register for tax seemingly causing some confusion.  But I eventually came away with my Tax Registration Card and a printed three-page form, PND90, partially pre-filled, in Thai.  I shall have to ask my Thai friend (who is frequently busy and not always available) for assistance with that.

 

I feel that if many foreigners are now expected to submit annual tax returns there ought to be translations freely available in commonly used languages (such as English, Chinese, Russian, etc.)
Instead one is expected to pay 400 baht for advice on filling in their form PND90 so that they can collect tax:
https://thailand.themispartner.com/document/personal-income-tax/
This could set a precedent for charging for advice on filling-in other government forms, such as visa applications, extensions, etc., in addition to the non-reimbursable charges for submission.
Perhaps if so costly to produce this electronic document, the amount could be deducted from any tax due ?

[rocketboy2]

20 minutes ago, Raindancer said:

Here are the Personal Allowances.  Apply them to your situation. 

 

Personal Allowance for self (PA1) - 60,000

b) Personal Allowance for wife (PA2) - 60,000 ( not working/ employed)

c) Over age 65 years exemption (OAE) - 190,000

d) 50% of pension income received, up to 100k (PD) - 100,000

e) In addition, the first 150,000 of assessable income is zero rated and free of tax.

 

Hope that helps.
 

 

 

Well I'm not so sure.

I wish to side step the revenue office.

I think you may need to file if you apply the standard deductions.

Also I have no idea if the deductions apply to foreign rental income.

but understand you can have a 30% deduction on the gross rental income or more if you can prove it.

so at present. I'm going to stick to the 120,000 for now.

Thank you for your reply.

 

 

 

[Raindancer]

14 minutes ago, rocketboy2 said:

 

Well I'm not so sure.

I wish to side step the revenue office.

I think you may need to file if you apply the standard deductions.

Also I have no idea if the deductions apply to foreign rental income.

but understand you can have a 30% deduction on that rental income or more if you can prove it.

so at present. I'm going to stick to the 120,000 for now.

Thank you for your reply.

 

 

 

 

 

 

You're welcome.  I have no idea regarding rental income.

 

The purpose of my post was to highlight the current income tax exemptions.  Maybe they apply to your circumstances or not.  Apply them if and where necessary, if you so wish.

 

I will not be applying for a TIN, as I have already posted on AN.   Because my UK state pension is under my 560k annual exemptions.   And my military pension is covered under the DTA.

 

Others may  decide to apply for a TIN, and that is their choice.  

 

Everyone has a different viewpoint on this.  But I will do nothing, until it is 100% necessary, if and when it is clarified, and thus instructed by the TRD.

 

 

 

 

[rocketboy2]

1 minute ago, Raindancer said:

You're welcome.  I have no idea regarding rental income.

 

The purpose of my post was to highlight the current income tax exemptions.  Maybe they apply to your circumstances or not.  Apply them if and where necessary.

 

I will not be applying for a TIN, as I have already posted on AN.   Because my UK state pension is under my 560k annual exemptions.   And my military pension is covered under the DTA.

 

Others may  decide to apply for a TIN, and that is their choice.  

 

 

Yes it's all a bit mad at present.

I got a TIN number last month only because my offshore bank,  have come back again on me for this. 

 

 

[Raindancer]

1 minute ago, rocketboy2 said:

 

Yes it's all a bit mad at present.

I got a TIN number last month only because my offshore bank,  have come back again on me for this. 

 

 

Yep, it certainly is mad! I hope you get everything sorted out!

 

Good luck

[KhunHeineken]

13 minutes ago, rocketboy2 said:

 

Yes it's all a bit mad at present.

I got a TIN number last month only because my offshore bank,  have come back again on me for this. 

 

 

I think the chaos will only get worse as the 31st March approaches.  Then, there will be cases of enforcement being publicized to ponder. 

 

Interesting times ahead, but in my opinion, at the end of the day, the Thai's will turn a baht out of it.

[MartinL]

43 minutes ago, ericbj said:

As of 31st December last I transferred, in the course of the year, from my UK bank account to my Thai bank account a total of 299K baht.  Of this 240K+ baht (at recent FX 42B/£) can be said to come from my DWP pension and the remainder from long-term savings.

 

 

That's the way I've arranged things too. I remitted a total of 620k฿ in '24; 282k from verifiable pre-24 savings which is non-assessable, 338k from pension receipts in '24. Above the 120k filing limit but, with TEDAs of 60/100/150/190 k, below the level at which tax is due.

 

My plan is to repeat something similar for '25 and beyond - pension income to just below the TEDA limit and topped-up with pre-24 savings BUT in the back of my mind is the concept of First In First Out which might mean someone says that savings must be exhausted before newer income is remitted. That'd change things a bit but not disastrously. I haven't read much on that subject but I haven't been scrupulous in reading everything in these threads.

[Wyabcp]

10 hours ago, baansgr said:

My private pension is taxed in UK, I also get share dividends that are not due UK tax as paid through an ISA ...if push comes.to shove I could just.pay into my Thai partners account..anyway, I see no need to report anything....or am I wrong

from my limited knowledge trying to figure all this out, the capital gains from an ISA is taxable in Thailand. Also, the DTA may cover some of the pension tax, but the UK tax free allowance is also taxable in Thailand. As for transferring to spouse, this needs to be fully documented and proved that you won't benefit from it...

I really hope I'm wrong, I'm from the UK and in similar situation...

[NoDisplayName]

26 minutes ago, MartinL said:

 BUT in the back of my mind is the concept of First In First Out which might mean someone says that savings must be exhausted before newer income is remitted.

 

If you have your pension going to a dedicated bank account, which is sent to your Thai bank monthly, you would have a paper trail showing that specific bundle of money was remitted.  The remainder would be the savings.

 

Just my thought.  Seems logical, but TiT.

[ericbj]

27 minutes ago, MartinL said:

 

That's the way I've arranged things too. I remitted a total of 620k฿ in '24; 282k from verifiable pre-24 savings which is non-assessable, 338k from pension receipts in '24. Above the 120k filing limit but, with TEDAs of 60/100/150/190 k, below the level at which tax is due.

 

My plan is to repeat something similar for '25 and beyond - pension income to just below the TEDA limit and topped-up with pre-24 savings BUT in the back of my mind is the concept of First In First Out which might mean someone says that savings must be exhausted before newer income is remitted. That'd change things a bit but not disastrously. I haven't read much on that subject but I haven't been scrupulous in reading everything in these threads.

 

Useful to know.

But my problem is this.  In the course of the year in question I sold several gold coins, purchased a number of years ago and held physically in Singapore, whose proceeds were then credited to my account with the gold dealers in London, from where I transferred the money to my UK bank account, and thence to my Thai bank account.

 

I should be able to prove the somewhat distant date of acquisition of the coins, i.e. the investment.

 

But would the date of the investment be accepted as the moment the savings took place?  Or the date of its liquidation and conversion into fiat currency?

 

I think this question could arise in relation to many forms of savings, not just precious metals.  For example, disposal of real estate.  Which might concern a fair proportion of those moving to Thailand, perhaps some years after they move.

[ericbj]

4 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

If you have your pension going to a dedicated bank account, which is sent to your Thai bank monthly, you would have a paper trail showing that specific bundle of money was remitted.  The remainder would be the savings.

 

Just my thought.  Seems logical, but TiT.

 I think you are right about the paper trail, i.e. UK bank statements showing receipt from DWP.  But should not need to be sent monthly.  I have money sent to Thailand as needed.  This year just past more has been needed than usual

[NoDisplayName]

1 minute ago, ericbj said:

 I think you are right about the paper trail, i.e. UK bank statements showing receipt from DWP.  But should not need to be sent monthly.  I have money sent to Thailand as needed.  This year just past more has been needed than usual

 

That was just an example.  Point is, all pension goes into this separate account, money from that account moves to Thailand.  You can trace its location throughout the year, and can prove it.

 

As to your gold coins..............didn't we hear that personal assets in the home country sold and cash remitted is not taxable.  They used examples of cars and expensive watches and I think jewelry, also.  Maybe track down what that rule was being referenced, maybe your stamp and coin collection would fall in that category.

[rocketboy2]

1 hour ago, KhunHeineken said:

I think the chaos will only get worse as the 31st March approaches.  Then, there will be cases of enforcement being publicized to ponder. 

 

Interesting times ahead, but in my opinion, at the end of the day, the Thai's will turn a baht out of it.

 

Yes, think your right, should be some interesting stories over the coming weeks.

it's all a big crock of Do Do. fun times ahead. not. 

 

 

[topt]

1 hour ago, ericbj said:

1.    I have the impression from what has been posted previously that the DWP pension is non-assessable.  Is this the case?

Not sure where you get that impression from. If you are talking a Government pension/civil service then yes but not if you are referring to the state pension? 

1 hour ago, ericbj said:

2.    What constitutes savings pre-dating 2024 ?

This is the big question on which there is little clarity. One of the expat tax advisers believes it to be only cash available at 31/12/23 but others are arguing differently.

 

1 hour ago, ericbj said:

can the proceeds of assets acquired pre-2024 and then sold during 2024 be regarded as savings pre-dating 2024, and therefore non-assessable ?

Same tax adviser says no but who knows.

Arguably the initial cost of the asset could be but any growth won't be  - especially if you are tax resident in Thailand when the gain arises. Also even if allowed should have been sold in 2023.......

[Guavaman]

29 minutes ago, topt said:

1 hour ago, ericbj said:

can the proceeds of assets acquired pre-2024 and then sold during 2024 be regarded as savings pre-dating 2024, and therefore non-assessable ?

What is the monetary value of unrealized gains?  If assets are converted into capital/cash, the value of the pre-2024 assessable income is the value of the cash; then one can calculate the original capital and the gains for tax assessment upon remittance. If this was done in 2023, then one can remit the cash with exemption from declaring and calculating for tax.

[ericbj]

1 hour ago, topt said:

Not sure where you get that impression from. If you are talking a Government pension/civil service then yes but not if you are referring to the state pension? 

This is the big question on which there is little clarity. One of the expat tax advisers believes it to be only cash available at 31/12/23 but others are arguing differently.

 

Same tax adviser says no but who knows.

Arguably the initial cost of the asset could be but any growth won't be  - especially if you are tax resident in Thailand when the gain arises. Also even if allowed should have been sold in 2023.......

 My impression was wrong.  The Department of Work & Pensions pension is the state, not the civil service, pension.  It is weird that they penalise the lesser of the two.

 

[ericbj]

58 minutes ago, Guavaman said:

What is the monetary value of unrealized gains?  If assets are converted into capital/cash, the value of the pre-2024 assessable income is the value of the cash; then one can calculate the original capital and the gains for tax assessment upon remittance. If this was done in 2023, then one can remit the cash with exemption from declaring and calculating for tax.

 As mentioned in my earlier post, the assets were sold in 2024.  Are you saying that it is the capital gain since the date of acquisition some years earlier that is regarded as assessable income?  Or the capital gain since the 31st December 2023?