My Thai Tax Office Tax Filing Experience...

[jwest10]

8 minutes ago, Olav Seglem said:

Have filed tax report to thailand for 8-9 years.

Think you start paying tax if transfer about thb 600.000 or more 🙂

 

Yes and do not forget the personal allowances of 500 or 560K as well,
Some may get more and there are other allowances but the 2,  I originally and belief the majority would get these!! 

I have been told my income is less than my personal allowance and no need to file a tax form and asked so you work here and no and therefore the Revenue stated no need and several tines too!!!

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

3 hours ago, Sheryl said:

There is no way to include or declare non-assessable income on a Thai tax form.

 

Only if one has assessable remitted income in excess of 60k is it required to file.

 

Uploading documents not requested is  only  likely to cause confusion. 

 

 

Sheryl, I just came back this afternoon from a meeting with the tax staff at Thomas Carden's office in Bangkok.

 

I'm not arguing or claiming their advice is correct, and other tax advisers have agreed with your position.

 

But FWIW, Carden's office is claiming they have confirmed with the TRD legal staff the interpretation that for an expat to claim Thai tax exemptions for foreign remittances like U.S. Social Security & government pensions under the DTA or pre-2024 savings under the TRD policy, that the expat supposedly needs to file a zero income Thai tax return and then attach a statement specifically claiming the pertinent exemptions and the related amounts brought in.

 

Again, I'm not saying that's correct or accurate. Just reporting the advice they're giving out.  FWIW, another well-known expat tax advisory firm, Expat Tax Thailand, has the exactly opposite opinion matching yours -- that as long as the only income an expat brings in is non-assessable, that no Thai tax filing is required. Another member here also recently reported a conversation in Thai with the TRD help line that confirmed the same thing.

 

It would be nice if they could all agree on such things and what the TRD really does or doesn't plan to enforce.

 

 

[NoDisplayName]

1 hour ago, Njoku said:

wanted passport and visa and house book plus TM 30 copys, plus.... plus bank statements for 2024,

 

What bank statements exactly?

 

1.  Statement Bank (January to December 2024) for pay tax

 

This could be THAI bank statement to show the withholding tax deducted at source.

 

Your accountant mentioned a large batch of savings brought in, and the manager brushed it off, didn't say produce bank statements.

 

Maybe have your accountant call later and ask for details for that particular fiefdom's requirements, and then call the TRD helpline #1161.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

2 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

then call the TRD helpline #1161

 

Do they handle English speaking advice there, or only Thai, if you know?

 

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

 

Sheryl, I just came back this afternoon from a meeting with the tax staff at Thomas Carden's office in Bangkok.

 

I'm not arguing or claiming their advice is correct, and other tax advisers have agreed with your position.

 

But Carden's office is claiming they have confirmed with the TRD legal staff the interpretation that for an expat to claim Thai tax exemptions for things like U.S. Social Security & government pensions under the DTA or pre-2024 savings under the TRD policy, that the expat supposedly needs to file a zero income Thai tax return and then attach a statement specifically claiming the pertinent exemptions and the related amounts brought in.

 

Again, I'm not saying that's correct or accurate. Just reporting the advice they're giving out.

 

I knew they are saying that.

Personally I would ignore that if your case is relatively simple and you can easily prove your remittances were non-accessable in the event of audit.

They are saying such audits are likely and will cost a fortune and they're doing you a favor by charging you to file such null returns.

Does that sound like fear mongering? You decide.

I don't see why if you have the records why you even need any help proving that.

Everyone is going to have to filter out such issues for themselves. My filter says ignore that advice. Yours may differ.

[NoDisplayName]

4 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Thai tax exemptions for things like U.S. Social Security & government pensions under the DTA or pre-2024 savings under the TRD policy, that the expat supposedly needs to file a zero income Thai tax return and then attach a statement specifically claiming the pertinent exemptions and the related amounts brought in.

 

Would be nice if TRD announced this requirement, like, in public, like, you know, before the tax filing season was half over!

 

Fortunately, we have legal beagles like the one referenced looking out for our interests, and are more than willing to submit unnecessary tax filings and documentation............for a price.

[NoDisplayName]

2 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Do they handle English speaking advice there, or only Thai, if you know?

 

 

Dunno.  I get my wife to call for me to avoid misunderstandings.

 

There's one surefire way to find out.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Just now, NoDisplayName said:

 

Fortunately, we have legal beagles like the one referenced looking out for our interests, and are more than willing to submit unnecessary tax filings and documentation............for a price.

 

Yep, that's part of the concern. There's obviously a financial self-interest at play here when it comes to the various expat Thai tax advisory firms. Today I was quoted 7500 THB for them to do a TIN application, and then about 15,000 THB to actually prepare and file the Thai tax return.

 

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

8 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

Dunno.  I get my wife to call for me to avoid misunderstandings.

 

There's one surefire way to find out.

 

Thanks... Appreciate the update.

 

Unfortunately, my wife, bless her soul, who's proficient in English and Thai, nonetheless would not be a person I'd expect to understand and correctly translate Thai Revenue Department advice about the implications of the Double Taxation Treaty between Thailand and my home country, and whether or not an actual tax filing is required to make use of its provisions....

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

10 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I knew they are saying that.

Personally I would ignore that if your case is relatively simple and you can easily prove your remittances were non-accessable in the event of audit.

They are saying such audits are likely and will cost a fortune and they're doing you a favor by charging you to file such null returns.

Does that sound like fear mongering? You decide.

I don't see why if you have the records why you even need any help proving that.

Everyone is going to have to filter out such issues for themselves. My filter says ignore that advice. Yours may differ.

 

One of the other bottom lines of their advice, which I found reassuring was, if someones chooses to NOT file.... as long as when the dust settles they don't actually owe any taxes in the TRD's opinion if it ever comes to an audit or whatever... then there's no serious consequences involved.

 

It's only if you don't file and then the TRD later concludes that you DID owe taxes and failed to report taxable remittances and failed to file the required return, that's when things could get very messy.

 

[NoDisplayName]

2 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Thanks... Appreciate the update.

 

Unfortunately, my wife, bless her soul, who's proficient in English and Thai, nonetheless would not be a person I'd expect to understand and correctly translate Thai Revenue Department advice about the implications of Double Taxation Treaties between Thailand and my home country....

 

We cover everything in detail before she calls.

 

I explain exactly what I want to know, and draw pictures of countries and banks with red arrows to show cash flows.

 

Also make a written list of specifically-worded questions, leaving space for her to write the answers, preferably "yes", "no", or a number.

 

I also ask her to explain the questions to me before the call so she knows I know she knows, you know?

 

 

[hunkidori]

12 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

 

FWIW, another well-known expat tax advisory firm, Expat Tax Thailand, has the exactly opposite opinion matching yours -- that as long as the only income an expat brings in is non-assessable, that no Thai tax filing is required. Another member here also recently reported a conversation in Thai with the TRD help line that confirmed the same thing.

 

 

 

Very sensible and in my opinion accurate information.

 

Do not listen to the scaremongers and opportunistic chancers. 

 

Let me know when the first farang is either arrested or refused a visa extension because he hasn't filed a Thai tax return. It won't happen

[Jingthing]

5 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

One of the other bottom lines of their advice, which I found reassuring was, if someones chooses to NOT file.... as long as when the dust settles they don't actually owe any taxes in the TRD's opinion if it ever comes to an audit or whatever... then there's no serious consequences involved.

 

It's only if you don't file and then the TRD later concludes that you DID owe taxes and failed to report taxable remittances and failed to file the required return, that's when things could get very messy.

 

In any case, they are certainly applying the HARD SELL when it comes to filing. That rubs me the wrong way.

[NoDisplayName]

35 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

FWIW, another well-known expat tax advisory firm, Expat Tax Thailand, has the exactly opposite opinion matching yours -- that as long as the only income an expat brings in is non-assessable, that no Thai tax filing is required.

 

Yes, but this guy is all over the place.

 

In one video he claims his sources in the upper reaches of immigration confirm there is no inclination to require tax filing, and in another he claims it's just around the corner that extensions will be linked to tax clearance.

[oldcpu]

41 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

But FWIW, Carden's office is claiming they have confirmed with the TRD legal staff the interpretation that for an expat to claim Thai tax exemptions for foreign remittances like U.S. Social Security & government pensions under the DTA or pre-2024 savings under the TRD policy, that the expat supposedly needs to file a zero income Thai tax return and then attach a statement specifically claiming the pertinent exemptions and the related amounts brought in.

 

 

That Carden assessment begs the question ... why would the Thai RD NOT put a location on the Thai tax form if it was necessary to provide such information.

 

No where in the Thai tax guide , that I could see, requires that.   ...

 

I am very suspicious that an unnecessary requirement is being pushed forward to try and raise money for a tax advisor office (to get expats to obtain TINs and file tax returns through such offices, when such is not a requirement for some (as confirmed by local Thai RD Tax offices - and the Thai RD helpline)).

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

8 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

That Carden assessment begs the question ... why would the Thai RD NOT put a location on the Thai tax form if it was necessary to provide such information.

 

I believe it's correct that for the current 2024 tax year filing season, neither the Thai nor the English language versions of the Thai tax filing forms have any provision for reporting non-assessable foreign remittance income!

 

One possible answer is that's they don't expect it to be reported. The other possible answer is they DO expect it to be reported, but are so slow in working thru the details of this whole new foreign remittances tax regime that they haven't updated their systems as required.

[hunkidori]

3 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

 

I am very suspicious that an unnecessary requirement is being pushed forward to try and raise money for a tax advisor office (to get expats to obtain TINs and file tax returns through such offices, when such is not a requirement for some (as confirmed by local Thai RD Tax offices - and the Thai RD helpline)).

 

And you have every right to be suspicious. I believe there are various groups who's interests are best served by pushing expats to obtain TINs and file unnecessary tax returns

[JimGant]

59 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Carden's office is claiming they have confirmed with the TRD legal staff the interpretation that for an expat to claim Thai tax exemptions for foreign remittances like U.S. Social Security & government pensions under the DTA or pre-2024 savings under the TRD policy, that the expat supposedly needs to file a zero income Thai tax return and then attach a statement specifically claiming the pertinent exemptions and the related amounts brought in.

John, if that were true, it would be headline news in the expat community....

 

I can't believe you went to Carden. First, I know you're smart enough to do your own taxes. Second, you were in on that thread several years back regarding Carden's illegal scheme -- which he successfully sold to many Americans -- whereby you never have to pay any taxes, to either Thailand or the US, on your Traditional IRA cashout -- as long as you're a Thai tax resident. Imagine. Move to Thailand -- the only country in the world where Americans, according to Carden, uniquely have an exemption in the tax treaty language to avoid IRA taxation. Wow! Too good to be true!? Duh.

 

And I just re-read some of your comments on this old thread, namely, that Carden's advertised educational bonafides are really weak. Plus, he's only an Enrolled Agent, whose only educational requirement is a "high school diploma." Yes, there are a lot of good, sharp EAs out there. Carden isn't one of them. He's a charlatan, and I believe Ben Hart has already honed in on this.

 

Oh, did you ask him about tax exempt IRAs? I believe Por 161 may have put a knot in his tail. Which is good, since apparently his scheme was under the radar as far as the IRS was concerned.

[JimGant]

1 hour ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

One of the other bottom lines of their advice, which I found reassuring was, if someones chooses to NOT file.... as long as when the dust settles they don't actually owe any taxes in the TRD's opinion if it ever comes to an audit or whatever... then there's no serious consequences involved.

Gosh they're stupid. By saying that, they're chasing away customers, who might have paid 7500 +15000, but didn't owe any taxes -- but had read on this forum about the horrors of not filing if you exceeded the 60/120/220k assessable income thresholds.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

21 minutes ago, JimGant said:

 

 

I can't believe you went to Carden.

...

 

Oh, did you ask him about tax exempt IRAs? I believe Por 161 may have put a knot in his tail. Which is good, since apparently his scheme was under the radar as far as the IRS was concerned.

 

Jim, it's just a matter of scheduling. My appointment with Carden's office happened to come first. My appointment with Expat Tax Thailand is later this week. I wanted to hear both their opinions and the basis for them, and ask about some specific details, before coming to any personal conclusions.

 

I asked about A LOT of different related topics, one of those being TRD's stance toward Roth IRAs. Carden's office's main Thai attorney sat in on our conversation. And basically she said, they've had queries in with TRD on the subject of Roths, but haven't gotten any firm guidance back from TRD's legal staff as yet... They said they hoped for some update within perhaps a coming month.

 

I recorded our conversation for my personal use, so I need to go back thru that later... But as best as I recall from this afternoon, when I pressed Carden's Thai tax attorney on the issue of Roths, I believe she said her current GUESS is that the TRD will end up treating Roth account remittances as TAXABLE, because they're not specifically exempted in the current U.S.-Thai DTA.

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

16 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Gosh they're stupid. By saying that, they're chasing away customers, who might have paid 7500 +15000, but didn't owe any taxes -- but had read on this forum about the horrors of not filing if you exceeded the 60/120/220k assessable income thresholds.

 

 

Their first and primary position was that expats who are Thai tax residents who move foreign funds into Thailand should file, regardless. That's their base recommendation, and is advice they say they have confirmed with the TRD's legal staff....

 

But it was only later after much back and forth between myself and them, that our discussion later turned to the point that if you DON'T file, as long as the TRD never concludes you actually owed any Thai taxes, then the penalty for not filing a return that owed no taxes is very minimal.

 

But if summoned somewhere down the road, you'd better have all your necessary documentation in order to show that your remittances were in fact non-assessable for whatever reasons, the pertinent DTA or the TRD's own policy about pre-2024 income.

 

One of the interesting things they were very clear about, which was one of the important points I wanted to seek advice on, was whether pre-2024 savings would only be counted as CASH holdings, or also include the value of stock holdings, in other words, total account balances as of the end of 2023. And they were very clear without any waffling that any pre-2024 savings calculation would be based on TOTAL account balances, stock and cash balances inclusive.

 

 

[JimGant]

3 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

when I pressed Carden's Thai tax attorney on the issue of Roths

I'm just curious about his famous tax evasive scheme on Traditional IRAs. Maybe you've already converted yours to a Roth.....which, of course, means you had to pay Uncle Sam taxes on those conversions -- when you could have hired Carden and sold all your Traditional IRAs tax free! 🙂

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

17 minutes ago, JimGant said:

I'm just curious about his famous tax evasive scheme on Traditional IRAs. Maybe you've already converted yours to a Roth.....which, of course, means you had to pay Uncle Sam taxes on those conversions -- when you could have hired Carden and sold all your Traditional IRAs tax free! 🙂

 

I didn't ask them about what had become of their prior advice on how to supposedly make US regular IRA account withdrawals not taxable in the U.S. by having the person cite Thai residency and invoke the provisions of the US-Thai DTA... I've never gone down that road personally, so I left that for another day!  🙂

 

The Roth account issue was a bigger concern, because I have in recent years gradually been converting modest amounts of regular IRA funds every year to tax-exempt Roths, and paying the U.S. tax on the conversions. Believing that my U.S. tax rates in the future, once I start drawing SS income, will be higher than they are now without it.

 

But if Thailand ends up deciding that THAILAND is going to tax all future (post 2023 savings) Roth funds remittances into Thailand, and Thailand is my long-term home, I think that's going to cause me to at least adjust my current IRA-to-Roth conversion plans...  

 

FWIW, even if Thailand decided to tax Roth distributions for the future once brought into Thailand, that would only cover income first earned in 2024 and beyond, and not pre-2024 savings, which would remain exempt under TRD's prior savings policy.

 

[Njoku]

2 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

What bank statements exactly?

 

1.  Statement Bank (January to December 2024) for pay tax

 

This could be THAI bank statement to show the withholding tax deducted at source.

 

Your accountant mentioned a large batch of savings brought in, and the manager brushed it off, didn't say produce bank statements.

 

Maybe have your accountant call later and ask for details for that particular fiefdom's requirements, and then call the TRD helpline #1161.

The accountant is my TGF think I mentioned that the bank statements are from the bank/s account you remit funds into, no withholding tax in that account but my term deposit for want of a better name has had withholding tax deducted, just found out the bank needs to issue another statement for that if I want to claim it, like gees the bank offical statement that shows monies interest and withholding tax deducted isn't good enough, but I might be wrong well this is Pattaya a nation within a nation with its own set of rules..

 

The large amount of money mentioned that I brought in was at the point where we where she was talking and me looking annoyed because they wouldn't issue me a TIN and they expected me to do the lot unprepared on the spot, and no doubt hanging on to my bank statements which i am not happy about since my understanding was its meant to be an honour system, anyway the manager brushed it off and in my experience they never give you all the information in one go, its a Thai thing, happened to me over and over here, so im off to the bank tomorrow to get paper work for the withholding tax that might take another week then wait for the TGF's next weekday day off to return, I wont be going alone..at least this first time.

 

As for the helpline, its well known Pattaya immigration is a little different to other offices and its more than possible there revenue department maybe too, I posted the requirements this office requires so thats that.

[Guavaman]

1 hour ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

My appointment with Carden's office happened to come first. My appointment with Expat Tax Thailand is later this week. I wanted to hear both their opinions and the basis for them, and ask about some specific details, before coming to any personal conclusions.

Good approach, like getting a second opinion from another doctor.  However, all of these differing opinions from 'tax doctors' is becoming like a surreal nightmare.

 

While Carden's office refers to advice from TRD's legal staff, Expat Tax also claims that its' advice comes from TRDs' legal staff. Yet these two companies provide conflicting advice.

 

For example, Carl Turner sets up the question of pre-2024 income as an issue limited to cash in the bank here:

 

A Senior Legal Officer from Thailand’s Revenue Department Answers Expat Tax Questions

Feb 5, 2025

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_vGytBre2o

 

Transcript

35:47 so next question we get this we get many questions on this how will pre 2024 cash

 

35:48 Pre-2024 income cash in the bank

 

35:53 in the bank so Savings in the bank before 2024 uh how will the savings be treated under the new rule so we're talking about cash in the bank so pre 2024 income or that was actually moved into Cash how is this treated uh for okay uh so called yeah the income cash uh saving in your bank the income that you earn before 2024 is not taxed if it remains offshore or is brought into Thailand in future calendar years yes is it clear yes but it's only a capital for bank accounts or cash accounts is exempt right clear yes the interest is still taxable right yeah yeah okay ex that uh you cannot apply this to the investment or pensions no right so

so it's just for cash in the bank not pensions not pions not Investments yes yes fine that's clear right great that's really useful right fine and then the last question

[NoDisplayName]

23 minutes ago, Njoku said:

but my term deposit for want of a better name has had withholding tax deducted, just found out the bank needs to issue another statement for that if I want to claim it, like gees the bank offical statement that shows monies interest and withholding tax deducted isn't good enough,

 

This is normal.  Book bank is not sufficient. 

 

The general teller can produce the form you need, ask for a "withholding tax certificate."  Provide your ID and passbook(s).  Should take 5 minutes, free of charge. 

 

Filled out in triplicate on dot-matrix printer with carbon-paper sheets in-betwixt.  You get two copies - one for your records, one for TRD.  You'll get a set for each account paying interest and withholding tax.  Make sure they rubber-stamp the date and bank seal.

 

If the process turns out easy enough for you, it's still possible to file late returns for 2022 and 2023 and get your withholding tax refunded.  (Will be charged one 200-baht late fee.)  If you're only getting the statement(s) for one account, just have the teller make you a copy for each year.

 

 

 

[JimGant]

1 hour ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

And they were very clear without any waffling that any pre-2024 savings calculation would be based on TOTAL account balances, stock and cash balances inclusive.

Wow. That's 180 degrees out from what Expatthaitax has been saying (and which many of us, and TRD hotline, have taken issue with). And you're saying your Roth is also pre-2024 savings -- which I certainly agree with. But which Expatthaitax says, nope, has to be cash in a bank account. Bonkers -- although they didn't just dream this up, so must be a high level tip from a TRD type -- whose identity would be interesting to know.

[Guavaman]

5 minutes ago, JimGant said:

must be a high level tip from a TRD type -- whose identity would be interesting to know.

In the video referenced above: Khun Pattharaphon Penjham, Senior Legal Officer at the Legal and Tax Collection Department, Pathum Thani Area Revenue Office, kindly joined our recent webinar to answer key questions.

 

But the topic was a setup to get him to confirm the position taken by Expat Tax on cash in the bank. He did not exactly wholeheartedly make the point that only cash in the bank is acceptable.

 

One might think that by limiting pre-2024 income this way, it would generate more business for tax advisory services; widening the meaning of pre-2024 savings would reduce the need for paid assistance on filing tax returns for years going forward.

[NoDisplayName]

1 hour ago, JimGant said:

I'm just curious about his famous tax evasive scheme on Traditional IRAs. Maybe you've already converted yours to a Roth.....which, of course, means you had to pay Uncle Sam taxes on those conversions -- when you could have hired Carden and sold all your Traditional IRAs tax free! 🙂

 

Tax?  What tax?  Convert in a year(s) you're on a long vacation with no significant income.  🙂 

[NoDisplayName]

2 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

One of the interesting things they were very clear about, which was one of the important points I wanted to seek advice on, was whether pre-2024 savings would only be counted as CASH holdings, or also include the value of stock holdings, in other words, total account balances as of the end of 2023. And they were very clear without any waffling that any pre-2024 savings calculation would be based on TOTAL account balances, stock and cash balances inclusive.

 

If you can find a video clip featuring a Thai official stating this or some TRD document that confirms this, you will be our hero!

 

Would be the simplest method of documentation, producing a Dec 31 2023 brokerage statement.  That would set cost basis at NAV on that date.