Road Safety in Thailand – a summary of Perceptions and Reality

[kwilco]

11 minutes ago, novacova said:

Emotionally charged mentality undeveloped krengjai drivers are the most dangerous on the road, some people go in a psychotic trance behind the wheel, no matter what their national origin. 

Clearly you have no understanding of Kreng Jai.

[gamb00ler]

11 minutes ago, kwilco said:

..  every time road safety is discussed it is inevitable that someone will use the term “common sense”… it is a classic misconception

 

The claim that "almost all safe driving habits come from common sense"

You have a very strange definition of "common sense"

 

Merriam Webster says:
sound and prudent judgment based on a simple perception of the situation or facts

 

I have no idea why the phrase includes the word "common"... they could use the word "ordinary" so as not to confuse you and others.

[novacova]

31 minutes ago, kwilco said:

Clearly you have no understanding of Kreng Jai.

I have no intention of ever tossing a wai or being distracted by or handing out krengjai’s on the road, polite driver-unexpected cold stop = accident. How about keeping the traffic flowing as it should and adapting to the driving conditions and mind your own business on the road. I suspect you drive on egg shells with trepidation and fear which is another dangerous driving trait.

[kwilco]

12 minutes ago, novacova said:

I have no intention of ever tossing a wai or being distracted by or handing out krengjai’s on the road, polite driver-unexpected cold stop = accident. How about keeping the traffic flowing as it should and adapting to the driving conditions and mind your own business on the road. I suspect you drive on egg shells with trepidation and fear which is another dangerous driving trait.

 

THis means it is unlikely you will ever understand or fit in with road safety in Thailand. Being a good driver regardless of country involves understanding and adapting to the driving environment.

Kreng Jai is an aspect of Thai culture th foreigners frequently grossly underestimate because to them it “just sounds too silly”

While "Kreng Jai" is a deeply ingrained cultural value in Thailand, it's important to note that it doesn't necessarily translate directly into safe or responsible driving habits. In fact, some aspects of "Kreng Jai" might even have unintended negative consequences on the road.

The problem is that whilst Thai people understand this, foreigners, even those who have lived for years in Thailand fail to understand even the basics, let alone how it influences driving.

Kreng jai is a double-edged sword  It can mean that drivers are more patient and there are potentially aggressive road rage incidents compared to some Western countries until the Thai cultural limit is exceeded – which of course foreign drivers can’t gauge.

 There is in general less overt hostility between drivers, reducing direct conflicts but as foreigners don’t react “normally” to Kreng jai as they don’t recognise it they then incur the disrespect of other drivers which foreigner misinterpret as Thai bad manners when in fact their behaviour has inadvertently triggered it.

 

There are negative aspects that foreigners don’t realise either…. Apparently Unpredictable driving behaviour due to politeness or hesitation goes over the heads of foreigners when Thai drivers recognise and expect it.

Seemingly a lack of assertiveness in enforcing traffic laws and road discipline, a reluctance to address unsafe driving habits in social settings.

 

[kwilco]

51 minutes ago, gamb00ler said:

You have a very strange definition of "common sense"

 

Merriam Webster says:
sound and prudent judgment based on a simple perception of the situation or facts

 

I have no idea why the phrase includes the word "common"... they could use the word "ordinary" so as not to confuse you and others.

Sorry but you are using schoolboy arguments and being guilty of over occidocentricity – but it does show how foreigners can’t understand the driving environment in Thailand because they insist on applying their own home criteria.

 

Merriam-Webster’s definition of common sense—"sound and prudent judgment based on a simple perception of the situation or facts"—is too facile because it oversimplifies a concept that is highly subjective, culturally dependent, and not actually "simple" at all.

Simple perception of the situation or Facts assumes universal understanding which is wildly inaccurate – just see how it was being used in reference to driving.

The phrase assumes that all people perceive the same situation in the same way, which is patently not true.

 

Perception is shaped by culture, experience, education, and biases—what seems "obvious" in one society may be completely foreign in another

For instance a Western driver might perceive that stopping at a pedestrian crossing is "common sense," while in Thailand, where pedestrians often yield to traffic, the same assumption doesn't apply. Yet the western driver hasn’t anticipated this (or even driven in Italy!)

 

 Sound and Prudent Judgment is also culturally and situationally variable. What one group considers "prudent judgment" depends on their upbringing and social norms. As we’ve just seen with Kreng Jai.

 

Common sense in driving, for example, varies drastically between countries with different road cultures, enforcement levels, and risk tolerance. The science of road safety is aware of this – but those who play the blame game are stuck in an archaic prism of perspective.

Another instance - In Germany, "sound and prudent judgment" on the Autobahn means driving at 200 km/h in the fast lane. In Thailand, such speeds would be reckless because the roads and driving behaviours are entirely different. But America for several years had a 55 mph speed limit

[gamb00ler]

2 minutes ago, kwilco said:

Common sense in driving, for example, varies drastically between countries with different road cultures,

OK.... please use your own words because "common sense" isn't meant for you.

[kwilco]

36 minutes ago, novacova said:

I have no intention of ever tossing a wai or being distracted by or handing out krengjai’s on the road, polite driver-unexpected cold stop = accident. How about keeping the traffic flowing as it should and adapting to the driving conditions and mind your own business on the road. I suspect you drive on egg shells with trepidation and fear which is another dangerous driving trait.

 

BTW - most foreigners can't wai properly and don't know who or why. 

I have had a shoe waved at me, years ago due to a mistake I made in my car - if I hadn't been able to wai, I could have been in serious trouble - but most foreigners don't even understand show waving. I've had astounding examples of kreng jai - after working in the motor industries for nearly 20 years I learned from both colleagues and mistakes.

I seriously think that many foreigners who have lived in Thailand for decades do so without knowing anything about Thailand and its culture at all - all they know is other expats and the price of Chang.

[novacova]

16 minutes ago, kwilco said:

THis means it is unlikely you will ever understand or fit in with road safety in Thailand.

I’ve never have had any issues or problems driving here.

17 minutes ago, kwilco said:

Being a good driver regardless of country involves understanding and adapting to the driving environment.

No freaking duh…

18 minutes ago, kwilco said:

Kreng Jai is an aspect of Thai culture th foreigners frequently grossly underestimate because to them it “just sounds too silly”

While "Kreng Jai" is a deeply ingrained cultural value in Thailand, it's important to note that it doesn't necessarily translate directly into safe or responsible driving habits. In fact, some aspects of "Kreng Jai" might even have unintended negative consequences on the road.

The problem is that whilst Thai people understand this, foreigners, even those who have lived for years in Thailand fail to understand even the basics, let alone how it influences driving.

Kreng jai is a double-edged sword  It can mean that drivers are more patient and there are potentially aggressive road rage incidents compared to some Western countries until the Thai cultural limit is exceeded – which of course foreign drivers can’t gauge.

 There is in general less overt hostility between drivers, reducing direct conflicts but as foreigners don’t react “normally” to Kreng jai as they don’t recognise it they then incur the disrespect of other drivers which foreigner misinterpret as Thai bad manners when in fact their behaviour has inadvertently triggered it.

 

There are negative aspects that foreigners don’t realise either…. Apparently Unpredictable driving behaviour due to politeness or hesitation goes over the heads of foreigners when Thai drivers recognise and expect it.

Seemingly a lack of assertiveness in enforcing traffic laws and road discipline, a reluctance to address unsafe driving habits in social settings.

Good grief! Here you are trying to illustrate that Thai drivers have some sort of special supernatural ability of politeness, what a freakin joke! What you fail to understand is humans are generally the same everywhere on this planet. In the US most are polite drivers and just as here there are some who are overly polite and do stupid things like unexpected polite things that cause accidents and aggressive road ragers that cause accidents. Only difference here is that there’s virtually no traffic enforcement to cite the overly polite and aggressive drivers so there’s more mayhem on the roads. 

 

6 minutes ago, kwilco said:

BTW - most foreigners can't wai properly and don't know who or why. 

BTW- The way you’re rambling on here I doubt you get out enough to even know the difference.

 

8 minutes ago, kwilco said:

I have had a shoe waved at me, years ago due to a mistake I made in my car - if I hadn't been able to wai, I could have been in serious trouble -

Well there you have it folks, another farang that has no business driving on the roads…anywhere.

[kwilco]

26 minutes ago, novacova said:

Good grief! Here you are trying to illustrate that Thai drivers have some sort of special supernatural ability of politeness, what a freakin joke!

Reductio ad absurdum - a cheap joke or do you just not get it?

[kwilco]

16 hours ago, fredwiggy said:

You can't grossly misuse a fact. It is what it is.

This is an embarrassingly naive take. Facts don’t magically convey truth just by existing—context, framing, and manipulation determine how they’re understood. If you think stats can't be misused, you either don’t understand them or don’t want to. Cherry-picking data, stripping context, and using selective framing can completely distort reality while still being ‘technically true.’ Your argument is the intellectual equivalent of saying a knife can’t be used for harm because it’s just a piece of metal. It’s a lazy, willfully ignorant stance that ignores how misinformation actually works."

[nauseus]

19 hours ago, kwilco said:

"they" -???

 

 that's exactly the racist rubbish that impedes any progress in understanding road safety in Thailand

When you make a sweeping generalizations like “they are all reckless” or list complaints using "they", you need to define  Who ”they” is - Are you saying every single Thai driver does this?”
Do you think all Thai drivers fit this stereotype. - Road safety issues exist everywhere, and different factors contribute to them, like infrastructure, enforcement, and driving culture. But saying ‘all Thai drivers’ ignores responsible drivers and improvements being made.

“Driving habits vary across countries due to road conditions, enforcement, and training. Instead of blaming all Thai drivers, maybe we should look at the driving education system or road safety laws.”

When you see one bad driver in Thailand, do you assume all Thais drive that way? Would you say the same if you saw a reckless driver in your own country?” You seem unaware of the reality of statistics of driving a car in Thailand compared to other countries

 “If road safety is a concern, what do you think would help improve it? Playing the blame game clearly doesn’t.

What do you suggest – I expect you have a single issue tht you b;eive will provide the answer?

“Yes, road safety is a major public health issue in Thailand like in many other places. But generalizing all Thai drivers as reckless isn’t accurate or fair.

  

 

This quote: “they are all reckless” is false. read the post again and stop being a douche.

[MangoKorat]

6 hours ago, kwilco said:

Blaming Thai drivers is lazy analysis—understanding why accidents happen and how to prevent them is the real solution.

 

You continue to entirely rely on and consequently overvalue  personal observation, which is not a scientific or objective way to analyse road safety.

Not being rude in any way but you apply far too much science and complicate matters unnecessarily.

 

In my, and I'd guess, a lot of other people's opinions, based on their posts here and on other previous threads, there are only 3 major factors that cause the majority of road accidents in Thailand. These factors are not arrived at scientifically, they are the result of real world observations made by people who have driven in Thailand for many years and they are:

 

1. An almost total lack of enforcement.

 

2. The unbelievable stupidity and risk taking of Thai drivers.

 

3. Selfishness.

 

Enforcement?  There is very little, I'm not going to write volumes, most of us here are very aware of that fact.

 

Stupidity, risk taking and selfishness?  I'll give 3 of the worst examples I've seen:

 

A). Supidity. Several years ago I was heading towards Bangkok on Highway 2, somewhere around Muak Lek. The road there varies between 3 and 4 lanes I believe and  the traffic is fairly fast moving. There are fruit stalls at the side of the road (asking for trouble). I was in the outside (r/h) lane doing around 110kmh I'd guess and I'd describe the traffic as medium.  The Toyota Fortuner in front of me suddenly decided he needed some fruit, screeched to a halt (how I managed to stop I know not) then indicated left and crossed the other lanes to the fruit stalls - causing the traffic in those lanes to also brake sharply.  Some cars slewed across at an angle but miraculously, nobody hit him.

 

B). Risk Taking.  One of the roads leading from Buriram, onto the 24 and onwards to Highway 2 for Bangkok is the 218. Its a normal 2 lane (1 in each direction) road that in the UK would be classed as an A road. It can be quite busy, the traffic generally drives fairly fast and there are few major bends. I've seen several near misses on the 218 over the years, usually the result of frustration when following a slow moving truck and overtaking when its not safe to do so.

 

On this occasion I was approaching a left hand bend, not major but sweeping enough that if you are more than 100m from it, you cannot see around it.  The road is also lines with trees and bushes that also add to the lack of visibility around the bend. Just beyond the bend there is a r/h turn.  I'd guess there were maybe 8 - 10 cars in front of me when brake lights came on and the traffic stopped. It wasn't possible to see around the bend (in any way) to know the reason for the stop.  I queued for a few seconds - maybe 20 and a small queue built up behind me.  Looking in my mirror I saw a pick up truck approaching at speed, overtaing the queue behind me.  He continued on, past me and round the bend followed by a loud bang/crunch.

 

When the traffic started moving again it became clear what had happened - a car had been waiting for oncoming traffic to clear before turning right  - all perfectly normal.  Until that is, this idiot, who in no way could see the cause for the queue, came speeding around the corner passing the queue. The right turning car had just started to make the turn when he was hit in the driver's door by that moron.

 

(Note: the 218 may well be a dual carriageway now)

 

3). Another regular act of stupidity is on the expressways in Bangkok. On any day of the week, as you approach an exit you will get people coming down the left hand margin - in effect undertaking you.  If you are leaving at the exit and are in the real l/h lane you're going to be in big trouble if you make that exit without checking your l/h mirror.

 

I don't know what the Highway code says about using your l/h mirror when you are exiting a motorway in the UK (which many expressways are the equivalent of) but until I first drove in Thailand, I don't think that was something I'd ever done. Since driving in Thailand its something I do all the time.

 

Nothing scientific is needed to analyse any of that - simple enforcement and the change of mindset that accompanies being heavily fined or losing your licence would deal with the majority of the above examples, given time.

 

However, there will still be things that you can't change so easily - I cite the thing you'll see many times per trip in built-up areas - motorcyclists pulling out of side roads on your left without even moving their head and therefore, not checking their right. Not sure even proper training would fix that - I'm a biker and my basic survival instincts just wouldn't let me do that. Its as if they have a bracket between their head and the handlebars locking the 2 together and holding their head straight forward.

 

As other people have said, you will see things on Thai roads that you just don't see elsewhere. Until recently I was driving 50,000 miles per year in the UK and I've never seen anyone do such stupid things - ever!

 

 

 

 

[kwilco]

36 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

my, and I'd guess, a lot of other people's opinions, based on their posts here and on other previous threads, there are only 3 major factors that cause the majority of road accidents in Thailand. These factors are not arrived at scientifically, they are the result of real world observations made by people who have driven in Thailand for many years and they are:

 

1. An almost total lack of enforcement.

 

2. The unbelievable stupidity and risk taking of Thai drivers.

 

3. Selfishness.

 

Enforcement?  There is very little, I'm not going to write volumes, most of us here are very aware of that fact.

 

Stupidity and risk taking?  I'll give 3 of the most unbelievable examples I've ever seen:

Road safety is a science – you can’t address it as an after dinner conversation.

Your response is the exact opposite of a scientific approach—it relies on anecdotal evidence, personal frustration, and broad generalizations rather than data or research. While no one denies that enforcement plays a role in road safety, dismissing all Thai drivers as 'stupid' and 'selfish' is not only offensive but also completely unhelpful in addressing the real issues

 

You talk about lack of enforcement – This is a legitimate issue, but it doesn’t exist in a vacuum. Many countries with high road safety still have strict laws and active enforcement. The question is, why isn’t enforcement effective in Thailand? That’s where we need to focus—not just stating the obvious, but looking at why the system fails and how to fix it.

 

Then comes the stereotyping – “unbelievable stupidity and risk-taking’ – these are totally subjective - Blaming accidents on ‘stupidity’ ignores the actual causes behind risk-taking behaviour. Poor driver education, inadequate infrastructure, lack of consequences, and cultural attitudes toward traffic laws all contribute to unsafe driving. If drivers don’t fear penalties or haven’t been trained properly, reckless behaviour becomes more common—not because people are inherently ‘stupid,’ but because the system doesn’t discourage it.

 

“Selfishness”? – that is a human trait, (just look at this thread!) not a uniquely Thai characteristic. Road safety issues exist worldwide, and in places where people drive more cautiously, it’s often because of the introduction of the Safe System and a scientific approach to road safety based on detailed analysis. Strict law enforcement, better education, and societal expectations—not because people are inherently more considerate. They have to be scientifically introduced. The idea that Thai drivers are uniquely selfish is just lazy stereotyping that ignores the deeper systemic problems at play.

 

the rest shows you don't understand anecdotal evidence - as I said, the plural of anecdote is not data.

Your cherry-picked anecdotes don’t prove anything. Every country has reckless drivers and absurd traffic incidents. You claim to have driven 50,000 miles a year in the UK, yet fail to acknowledge that the UK has strict law enforcement, rigorous driver training, and superior infrastructure—all of which reduce the impact of bad driving behaviour. Thailand lacks these, and that is the core issue—not some imagined national character flaw.

If you truly cared about road safety, you’d focus on real solutions: improving infrastructure, enforcing traffic laws, and enhancing driver education. Instead, you rely on sweeping generalizations, dismiss scientific analysis, and push a narrative that blames individuals instead of systems. That’s not just ignorant—it’s counterproductive."

[MangoKorat]

36 minutes ago, kwilco said:

dismissing all Thai drivers as 'stupid' and 'selfish' is not only offensive but also completely unhelpful in addressing the real issues

I have never said they are all stupid but the ones that cause accidents often are.

 

36 minutes ago, kwilco said:

The question is, why isn’t enforcement effective in Thailand?

That's very easy to answer, no science necessary. It can't be effective if it doesn't happen. 1 tiny example - why are schoolkids allowed to ride 3 up with no helmets on right in front of a policeman?

 

Ever been stopped in Thailand and asked to produce your licence? Don't worry, even though the law says you are supposed to carry it with you, if you don't have it or as is the case with a good many Thai's (factual), you don't actually hold a licence, simply pay the 200 baht fine (in cash of course) and carry on your way - no need to produce it later.

 

36 minutes ago, kwilco said:

Then comes the stereotyping – “unbelievable stupidity and risk-taking’ – these are totally subjective - Blaming accidents on ‘stupidity’ ignores the actual causes behind risk-taking behaviour. Poor driver education, inadequate infrastructure, lack of consequences,

Lack of consequences is the same as lack of enforcement. They have the rules, they have the punishments - they just don't enforce or apply them.  Quite often the 'consquences' are a far lesser punishment that somehow doesn't reach where its intended to - that's as far as I'll go on that one, other than to say that there are often checkpoints, targeting motorcyclists who are not wearing helmets. The 'fine' is often just 50 baht and they are allowed to ride off without a helmet.

 

36 minutes ago, kwilco said:

the rest shows you don't understand anecdotal evidence

What I do understand is that despite all your training, you appear to have about zero undertstanding of Thailand, its people and laws. Not sure if you live in Thailand or not but you certainly have no idea what goes on, on the roads, with the police, or many Thai drivers.

 

If you think a scientific approach will cure Thailand's road carnage - good luck to you.

 

To a certain extent they are different people - I have never known a UK motorcyclist pull out of a side road without looking, for example.  As I said, it goes against basic survival instincts - I don't know anybody, apart from maybe a 5 year old who needs training to know that there are cars coming and you are very likely to hit one. 

 

I see no point in discussing this further with someone who can't think beyond the science.  Very few things fit well with science in this matter. I've given you examples, not science, things I've seen happen that despite driving 50k miles per year, I have never seen in the UK and you choose to ignore them or try to make them fit with your 'model'.

 

You are almost completely wrong on all points.

 

 

[scubascuba3]

8 hours ago, kwilco said:

almost completely worthless - cognitive bias, personal anecdote and the plural of anecdote is not data

You certainly don't like people disagreeing with you, being closed minded can't be good for you, change

[MangoKorat]

40 minutes ago, kwilco said:

Blaming accidents on ‘stupidity’ ignores the actual causes behind risk-taking behaviour. Poor driver education, inadequate infrastructure, lack of consequences, and cultural attitudes toward traffic laws all contribute to unsafe driving

Using the example I gave of stupidity. Do you seriously believe that any of the factors you have listed is at play?  How much education does someone need to know that you can't just stop in the r/h lane of a fast moving 4 lane system, indicate and cut across 3 other lanes to go to a market stall.

 

You cannot be serious. This is a wind up.

 

Rubbish!!!

[MangoKorat]

A final thought on 'stupidity' how rational do you think someone who rides a motorcycle along a country road at night without any lights is?

 

If you talk to many Thai people, they will agree about the stupidity, the risk taking and the lack of enforcement. They may well have lost a relative to one of those reasons. I have Thai friends, they talk about these things in the very same that we do.

 

They are not all stupid, or selfish and I didn't say they were - it doesn't take many to cause the carnage that goes on almost every day.

[Lorry]

From my anecdotal evidence,  corroborated by many TV threads, farang in Thailand are disastrous drivers. 

First, they drive on the wrong side of the road (if they are Americans or Europeans).

Second,  most don't have a license, ie they don't have the license to drive the kind of vehicle they drive here.  People who have never in their life operated a motorcycle do it here all of the time.  In their home country,  they wouldn't dare to do it without the proper license.  Here, I have been asked whether one needs a license at all to drive. 

And they can't read Thai traffic signs. 

Then,  farang in Thailand are usually old, slow, poor vision,  sleepy reflexes, but stubborn. Many wouldn't be considered roadworthy in their home-country.  And they are usually drunk.

Finally,  most farangs know that they are superior beings.  They cannot even imagine that their driving is less than perfect. And they are always quick to blame "the Thais".

 

From this not-so-scientific analysis clearly follows,  aliens should be relegated to walking.

[Lorry]

And for a scientific approach, I recommend reading the long post OP wrote 51 minutes ago.

[runamok27]

There is no solution to this problem without enforcement. The bad air, dangerous driving, etc. are all unsolvable problems because they refuse to enforce anything. What good are traffic laws when so many drivers just ignore them? What good is having laws against burning when so many ignore them. This is not a Thai thing either. In America, people burning trash and littering didn't stop until the authorities starting fining people and threatening them with jail time. People don't care about stopping burning and polluting the air to keep from killing people, including themselves, but they do care if they are fined $1000.

[MangoKorat]

1 hour ago, Lorry said:

From my anecdotal evidence,  corroborated by many TV threads, farang in Thailand are disastrous drivers. 

First, they drive on the wrong side of the road (if they are Americans or Europeans).

Second,  most don't have a license, ie they don't have the license to drive the kind of vehicle they drive here.  People who have never in their life operated a motorcycle do it here all of the time.  In their home country,  they wouldn't dare to do it without the proper license.  Here, I have been asked whether one needs a license at all to drive. 

And they can't read Thai traffic signs. 

Then,  farang in Thailand are usually old, slow, poor vision,  sleepy reflexes, but stubborn. Many wouldn't be considered roadworthy in their home-country.  And they are usually drunk.

Finally,  most farangs know that they are superior beings.  They cannot even imagine that their driving is less than perfect. And they are always quick to blame "the Thais".

 

From this not-so-scientific analysis clearly follows,  aliens should be relegated to walking.

Its quite clear where you've either spent or spend your time in Thailand - 'usually drunk' - ha ha, I can't remember seeing any of my mates in Thailand drunk.

 

3 of us ride motorbikes, we all hold Thai licences. I'll admit to not being a spring chicken but I am not slow, I don't have poor vison and my reflexes are very fast - the Thai driving examiners couldn't believe it.  Show me a Thai traffic sign and in most cases I'll tell you what it means. A country that accepts international drivers and their licences is supposed to provide both national and English versions of its signage.

 

Whilst many of the things you mention, do go on, I'd suggest they apply mainly to tourists, not residents.

[MangoKorat]

5 minutes ago, runamok27 said:

There is no solution to this problem without enforcement. The bad air, dangerous driving, etc. are all unsolvable problems because they refuse to enforce anything. What good are traffic laws when so many drivers just ignore them?

Careful, you'll be accused of being unscientific.

 

I agree though, lack of enforcement is the root cause of it all.

[MangoKorat]

2 hours ago, kwilco said:

enforcing traffic laws

Strange, I thought I had concentrated of that. Silly me.

[fredwiggy]

9 hours ago, kwilco said:

almost completely worthless - cognitive bias, personal anecdote and the plural of anecdote is not data

You are right in some of what you say, about the enforcement and roads, infrastructure,but you're wrong thinking I'm off in my assessments. It isn't bias when you see things personally firsthand. It isn't racist when you tell things as they are. It's observation, and mine mirrors many others here. This topic is about perceptions and reality, something I've talked about many times, and you're still missing it, maybe because you refuse to believe you're wrong in some thinking, and others have more experience than you do in some things. This is the definition of perception.....

per·cep·tion

/pərˈsepSH(ə)n/

noun

noun: perception; plural noun: perceptions

1. the ability to see, hear, or become aware of something through the senses.

   "the normal limits to human perception"        .................That's what I've been saying all along. I and others here have that ability. reality is what actually is happening, meaning the same thing. We are seeing how people drive here, daily, for years, and things haven't changed and only gotten worse. Personal observations are real. We aren't hallucinating when we see locals cut people off, drive recklessly, go into oncoming traffic instead of taking the safer approach and going in the next lane, driving with up to 6 on a scooter, driving without helmets or having children operate motor vehicles illegally. It's reality. There is some agenda you seem to have, where you think what you say is right and we are all wrong, as it is hardly just me that observes these things happening. Where do you think data comes from? People.

.

[MangoKorat]

7 hours ago, kwilco said:

Apparently Unpredictable driving behaviour due to politeness or hesitation goes over the heads of foreigners when Thai drivers recognise and expect it.

Yes, politeness like refusing to stop at pedestrian crossings.....which conveniently takes me to a story about Enforcement. I apologise if this evidence appears weak and not obtained through any scientific survey. Its just what I've witnessed for that last 22 years.

 

I suggest you go to Sukhumvit in Bangkok, more specifically to the crossroads with Soi's 3 and 4. That junction is traffic light controlled - sometimes automatically, sometimes by a policeman who sits in the box on the Soi 4 side of Sukhumvit Road.  Not only is the junction controlled by traffic lights, a lighted pedestrian crossing is included in order that people, mainly tourists can get across the busy road, safely (in theory).

 

The police box has a clear view of the lights on that pedestrian crossing yet cars go though the lights at red all the time - the green man is on clear view to the police officer who does precisely nothing about it, day in, day out. A tourist couple were killed there a few years ago yet the drivers still go through the lights at red every day whilst the policeman sits there looking at the green man being shown to pedestrians.  Enforcement? Pfft.

 

How much science does it take, exactly, for the police to take action and punish every driver that goes through those lights when the green man is showing?  How does the officer in the police box keep his job when people have died?

 

What would your science do about that?

[fredwiggy]

1 hour ago, Lorry said:

From my anecdotal evidence,  corroborated by many TV threads, farang in Thailand are disastrous drivers. 

First, they drive on the wrong side of the road (if they are Americans or Europeans).

Second,  most don't have a license, ie they don't have the license to drive the kind of vehicle they drive here.  People who have never in their life operated a motorcycle do it here all of the time.  In their home country,  they wouldn't dare to do it without the proper license.  Here, I have been asked whether one needs a license at all to drive. 

And they can't read Thai traffic signs. 

Then,  farang in Thailand are usually old, slow, poor vision,  sleepy reflexes, but stubborn. Many wouldn't be considered roadworthy in their home-country.  And they are usually drunk.

Finally,  most farangs know that they are superior beings.  They cannot even imagine that their driving is less than perfect. And they are always quick to blame "the Thais".

 

From this not-so-scientific analysis clearly follows,  aliens should be relegated to walking.

How many foreigners have you asked to check if they have licenses? Remember, you said most. How many's vision have you checked? Their reflexes? Usually drunk? These statements are obviously prejudicial, and wrong, as you probably don't know but a few foreigners personally, and you base your comment of them?

 

How many Thai traffic signs have you seen? I've driven here over 6 years, and follow the road rules, which are the same as in the US. Never a problem. I have driven in the US for 50 years, and yes, many aren't good drivers, and some shouldn't be on the road, but that's the few I've personally seen, so I can't judge others without knowing them and seeing them drive myself.

 

Foreigners that get into auto accidents are news here, so that's what you see, ether here or on TV. The amount of locals that get into accidents is 99% of the accidents that happen daily, if not more, but you only hear about a fraction that happens because it isn't newsworthy unless people are killed, and then you'll only see a couple a day on TV, although 60 die a day, at least, and there are thousands of accidents you'll never hear about.

[klauskunkel]

A few years ago I tried to improve my panning technique. So I sat down by my local 7-Eleven on Patthanakarn Road around 9am on a weekday and started shooting traffic. These are 2 examples of what I saw within 30 minutes, feel free to extrapolate for all of Bangkok and 24 hours...

 

 

[MangoKorat]

10 minutes ago, klauskunkel said:

A few years ago I tried to improve my panning technique. So I sat down by my local 7-Eleven on Patthanakarn Road around 9am on a weekday and started shooting traffic. These are 2 examples of what I saw within 30 minutes, feel free to extrapolate for all of Bangkok and 24 hours...

 

 

Yes, they clearly need to be shown - scientifically, why they shouldn't be doing those things. 

 

You can't just claim that its stupid or dangerous to behave in those ways though, you need to back that up with scientifically based evidence 😁

 

I note the guys on the truck are wearing their 'safety flip flops' and that at least the parents on the motorbike have helmets on so the children don't have to worry about them being killed in an accident.

[fredwiggy]

6 hours ago, kwilco said:

This is an embarrassingly naive take. Facts don’t magically convey truth just by existing—context, framing, and manipulation determine how they’re understood. If you think stats can't be misused, you either don’t understand them or don’t want to. Cherry-picking data, stripping context, and using selective framing can completely distort reality while still being ‘technically true.’ Your argument is the intellectual equivalent of saying a knife can’t be used for harm because it’s just a piece of metal. It’s a lazy, willfully ignorant stance that ignores how misinformation actually works."

You're the naive one thinking it's me. You spout data about enforcement, infrastructure and road conditions but completely miss the fact that it's the driver's responsibility to drive safely, and that's their deal. Not the testers at the motor vehicle offices, not the police, not the road departments, nor anyone else.

 

It's actually you that's cherry picking. It appears that you read a little of what others write, skim, and make a reply based on what you think is right and dismiss what others say, thinking we're wrong . Stop assuming. You have no idea how much I nor anyone else here knows. We see accidents and bad driving habits daily. This isn't lies. We all know about the lack of enforcement and bad roads here, as well as the lack of training drivers get.

 

Your words earlier................"driving norms differ dramatically between countries, even when road rules appear similar"..............Thailand adopts most things from somewhere else, meaning the west primarily. They see how people drive and how tests are given, what laws work and what makes safe driving, how roads are maintained, signs that help drivers, yet they don't enforce these laws because of a lack of care here for life itself. If they cared, they would not let children drive scooters,have buses with children sitting on the top, let people drive 5 on a scooter, with adults wearing helmets and children without., etc etc etc. They know they should wear helmets and that children need to wear them also. This is ignorance of the law they know. That the police don't stop and fine them is another problem that contributes to more of the same, and deaths daily. But it's first, again, on the driver.

 

Accidents happen here because of all of this, but it's still on the DRIVER to drive safe. Common sense is lacking here, in many areas, and driving is one of them. You make it sound like they have an excuse for driving bad because of their lack of training. Many here have taken driving tests, and seen what goes on in the classes. Videos are shown and people are on their phones, and miss the safety instructions, and are given licenses . Many don't drive with licenses. Ignorance of laws isn't anyone's fault but the person involved. Again, some of what you've said is right, and some is wrong. Bringing race into this is ignorance, and that's shows the intellectual equivalence of a teenager who doesn't know better. You can join the list of those here that assume they know others, or you can stop assuming and digest what others are saying.

[MangoKorat]

7 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

t's actually you that's cherry picking. It appears that you read a little of what others write, skim, and make a reply

Yes, the skim reading was clear.