Thailand May Ease Overseas Income Tax Rules Amid Global Changes

[quake]

13 minutes ago, ryandb said:

I'm under no illusions of the destruction of the UK (happened way before Blair he was just the fuel to the fire) but Farage just like Trump is there to contain the disenfranchised masses, and yes he's a workshy fool, ask his electorate how often he turns up for them. You are being played bro, colour of the tie is meaningless, there's no one presented who will save you! 

 

Just because you are not claiming does not rule you out for being a terrorist... 

 

Was that it. 

[stevenl]

5 hours ago, daveAustin said:

Be that as it may, Sheryl, I’m still not entirely sure what the f is going on. 

Neither is anyone else. Just wait and see. Sometimes being pro-active is not the smart thing to do.

[DrPhibes]

3 hours ago, Presnock said:

my bank deposits say that the pension money is "civil service pension deposi from OPM"

Social security going into it's own account in the US and tranferred over to Thailand for me.

[Presnock]

44 minutes ago, DrPhibes said:

Social security going into it's own account in the US and tranferred over to Thailand for me.

yes, same with me,  I don't transfer all my pension from the states to here - it goes to a US bank then each month or so I send funds needed here for whatever.  But if the rd challenges me, or requests verification of exemption, first triip would be a copy of my pp with the LTR with the BOI copy of exemption on any foreign funds I remit to Thailand.

[ronnie50]

17 hours ago, Negita43 said:

I think the value of a LTR Visa depends very much on your age.

I think it also depends on annual passive income (if BOI arragned LTR for 'wealthy' retiree category). But I do wonder how long that category will get to remain tax free if, later this year, the TRD/Finance Ministry announces a shift to taxation on global income and not remittances. Although it had been published in the Royal Gazette, there's nothing stopping any government from amending the rules.

[SHA 2 BKK]

32 minutes ago, ronnie50 said:

I think it also depends on annual passive income (if BOI arragned LTR for 'wealthy' retiree category). But I do wonder how long that category will get to remain tax free if, later this year, the TRD/Finance Ministry announces a shift to taxation on global income and not remittances. Although it had been published in the Royal Gazette, there's nothing stopping any government from amending the rules.

The Thai Government could also amend the rules to ban Red Heads from entering the Kingdom.   They are already trying to get more wealthy Global Citizens moving here - can’t see why they would then revoke RD 743 as part of the effort.  

[Presnock]

32 minutes ago, ronnie50 said:

I think it also depends on annual passive income (if BOI arragned LTR for 'wealthy' retiree category). But I do wonder how long that category will get to remain tax free if, later this year, the TRD/Finance Ministry announces a shift to taxation on global income and not remittances. Although it had been published in the Royal Gazette, there's nothing stopping any government from amending the rules.

even if they decided to drop that benefit from the LTR it wouldn't affect me at all, as I mentioned that wasn't why I opted for the LTR, my DTA says only the US can tax my pension as it is for CIVIL SERVICE and thus exempted still.

[Presnock]

On 2/16/2025 at 6:52 AM, RSD1 said:

Fingers crossed. 🤞🏼 👍🏼

I have been saying the same thing for over a year.  I began feeling that when a local lawyer type did a webinar and mentioned that he had heard that there was not much agreement in the financial world with changes to the worldside income tax scheme and a lot of arguing among the players.  Then when nothing happened around XMAS time that several other multiple country org had a briefing from the Finance folks saying that an agreement had been reached but then they only reported on the 15% corporate tax and nothing on the worldwide income bit so rigtht then that even confirmed my feelings even more that too many people with POWER just didn't like it.  So, either they will have to get off the pot or dump on expats...guess we'ii see.

[NoDisplayName]

6 hours ago, wittleus said:

Capital gains for non-resident foreigners are taxable in the US at a 30% flat rate if the individual resides in the USA for more than $183 days in that tax year. Sort of the same decision making issue as a 180 days in Thailand to determine residency or not.

 

A foreigner who spends >183 days in the US would be considered tax resident, same-same as here in Thailand.  I'm talking about wealthy Thais residing in Thailand, Investing offshore, thus non-resident in the US for tax purposes.  Withholding tax of 30% is generally assessed, unless....................there is a DTA.

 

The difference is, US tax forms offer provisions to claim DTA benefits, unlike here in Thailand.

 

The non-resident alien fills out a Form W8-BEN identifying themselves with their foreign TIN to the financial institution, and the bank/brokerage handles the rest.  Tax is withheld at source, sent directly to the IRS, and the foreigner does not need to file a tax return.

 

The rate of withholding varies depending on the DTA.

 

For those claiming under the Thai-US treaty, dividends and interest are taxed at 15%.

 

For those claiming under the Sino-US treaty, the rate is 10%.

 

In both cases, capital gains on stock/mutual fund sales is NOT taxed in the US.  Capital gains on property?  I dunno.

 

So wealthy Thai's investing in the US got their cake - no tax on capital gains from stocks.  Then they got to eat it - no tax on remittances when income is from previous years.

 

That changed with the new interpretation, wealthy Thais suddenly had to pay tax on the $Millions of offshore investment gains they brought in to Thailand.  And that is why I believe this ruling will be reversed.

 

Publication 515 (2025), Withholding of Tax on Nonresident Aliens and Foreign Entities

https://www.irs.gov/publications/p515#en_US_2024_publink1000224807

 

***OPINION, NOT ADVICE.  FOR ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES ONLY***

[Caldera]

Spook as many people as possible, then back-paddle, it's the Thai way...

[Yumthai]

42 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

The non-resident alien fills out a Form W8-BEN identifying themselves with their foreign TIN to the financial institution, and the bank/brokerage handles the rest.

 

Filing a FTIN is not mandatory if you are not legally required to obtain an FTIN from your jurisdiction of residence.

 

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fw8ben.pdf

 

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/iw8ben.pdf

 

 

[NoDisplayName]

27 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

 

Filing a FTIN is not mandatory if you are not legally required to obtain an FTIN from your jurisdiction of residence.

 

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fw8ben.pdf

 

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/iw8ben.pdf

 

 

 

I don't really care, it's not that important.  It was in the W8-BEN filing, so may or may not be required when claiming DTA benefits.  It is required, according to some posters here, when filing in their home countries to claim taxation in Thailand and not at home.  May be similar for Thais wanting to get the 15% DTA withholding rather than the standard 30%. 

 

I'd posit US financial institutions require a TIN for non-resident foreign......................no, wait, more than posit.  I opened a Schwab account for the wife a couple weeks ago, had to provide her Thai TIN.  Opened one for myself as well, and was required to provide my Thai TIN along with my SSN when claiming tax residency in Thailand.

 

The point of my post was that wealthy Thais are able to bring massive amounts of money into Thailand tax-free.  That's the beauty of being wealthy, you have friends willing to assist you in maintaining your wealth.  .................Make that "were able."

 

This new ruling hits them bigly.  The $Millions they could bring in free last year can now be taxed as ordinary income.........30-35%!  Unless they use more expensive options, setting up family trusts and front companies to hide their wealth.

 

I'll have to assume those same wealthy Thais have been contacting their friends to complain, thus "Thailand May Ease Overseas Income Tax Rules Amid Global Changes."

 

 

[Yumthai]

5 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

I'd posit US financial institutions require a TIN for non-resident foreign......................no, wait, more than posit.  I opened a Schwab account for the wife a couple weeks ago, had to provide her Thai TIN.

Sure your wife FTIN is her Thai national ID number even if she had never paid tax in her life. That's convenient and no big deal.

 

As a non US foreigner residing in Thailand, I've filled my IBKR W-8BEN form without providing a TIN as I have no taxable income here. Works fine.

 

16 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

The point of my post was that wealthy Thais are able to bring massive amounts of money into Thailand tax-free.  That's the beauty of being wealthy, you have friends willing to assist you in maintaining your wealth.  .................Make that "were able."

 

This new ruling hits them bigly.  The $Millions they could bring in free last year can now be taxed as ordinary income.........30-35%!  Unless they use more expensive options, setting up family trusts and front companies to hide their wealth.

 

I'll have to assume those same wealthy Thais have been contacting their friends to complain, thus "Thailand May Ease Overseas Income Tax Rules Amid Global Changes."

Agreed. The paradox is the ones who make these new rules are among the wealthy and certainly holding productive offshore assets as well.

[NoDisplayName]

8 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

Agreed. The paradox is the ones who make these new rules are among the wealthy and certainly holding productive offshore assets as well.

 

Okay, so they re-interpreted the legislation, instituting new rules, without working through all the potential consequences.

 

Surprised?

[Yumthai]

1 minute ago, NoDisplayName said:

Okay, so they re-interpreted the legislation, instituting new rules, without working through all the potential consequences.

 

Surprised?

Not surprised. As they know they are structured to be unreachable by TRD I believe their real target is the middle-class, this is where the potential big money is by volume and numbers.

[NoDisplayName]

11 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

Not surprised. As they know they are structured to be unreachable by TRD I believe their real target is the middle-class, this is where the potential big money is by volume and numbers.

 

The TRD folks were looking for ways to expand the tax base.  And sure, they can grab more from the middle class by closing some loopholes.  They can grab more from the overseas workers picking berries in Finland.  They likely didn't imagine the other potential victims. 

 

The wealthy just got caught in the same net as the real targets.  Same as how expats might get caught.  We aren't the target, just as rich Thais are not.

 

The difference is that wealthy Thais have options.  They are either in other parts of government, or have leverage they can utilize to affect change.

 

Follow this to its natural conclusion, and you could justify the belief that global taxation will never be implemented either.

[aldriglikvid]

A bit out of the loop here. All remittances done in 2024 in the clear? 

[Dogmatix]

Don't think they can introduce the type of changes he suggested without an amendment to Section 40 of the Revenue Code.  The 2023 reinterpretation of part of Section 40 via a Revenue Dept order only binding on RD staff is flimsy anyway and might not stand up to a challenge in the Tax Court. So they really need to amend it through the statutory three readings in parliament to safeguard the principle of taxation of remitted income and introduce some exemptions for investment.  

 

My concern is that the RD has already drafted an amendment to Section 40 in order to introduce global taxation for Thai residents.  So they might introduce global taxation at the same at the same time as making some exemptions for investment, again spinning the lie that this is required by the OECD which couldn't car less about domestic PIT structures. 

[Dogmatix]

27 minutes ago, aldriglikvid said:

A bit out of the loop here. All remittances done in 2024 in the clear? 

 

Unlikely.  They would need to make an announcement expeditiously cancelling or modifying the announcements made in 2023. Seeing as some people have already filed their 2024 taxes and paid the tax on remitted investments, I can't see them doing that at this late stage.

[ronnie50]

3 hours ago, Presnock said:

even if they decided to drop that benefit from the LTR it wouldn't affect me at all, as I mentioned that wasn't why I opted for the LTR, my DTA says only the US can tax my pension as it is for CIVIL SERVICE and thus exempted still.

Not just US, other countries have similar DTA exclusions for national government employee pension exclusions. Seems to be quite common in the DTAs with Thailand. Of course it only relates to pension income, not other income. Anyway, for now, the tax free exemption on all income is in place for Wealthy Penioner. 

[Presnock]

1 hour ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

Okay, so they re-interpreted the legislation, instituting new rules, without working through all the potential consequences.

 

Surprised?

well for those around a couple of years, anyone remember a senior guy being put incharge of one region, put a stop reportedly to agents, so within a short period was relieved of that senior position and eventually kicked out of the govt altogher.  Too much graft to block all those agents I guess unless we just do not know all the facts of course. Could just be our imagination I guess.

[Presnock]

22 minutes ago, Dogmatix said:

Don't think they can introduce the type of changes he suggested without an amendment to Section 40 of the Revenue Code.  The 2023 reinterpretation of part of Section 40 via a Revenue Dept order only binding on RD staff is flimsy anyway and might not stand up to a challenge in the Tax Court. So they really need to amend it through the statutory three readings in parliament to safeguard the principle of taxation of remitted income and introduce some exemptions for investment.  

 

My concern is that the RD has already drafted an amendment to Section 40 in order to introduce global taxation for Thai residents.  So they might introduce global taxation at the same at the same time as making some exemptions for investment, again spinning the lie that this is required by the OECD which couldn't car less about domestic PIT structures. 

if you recall, at XMAS time both the ASEAN news group and AfrIca news group reported that in fact the worldwide income was passed along with the 15% corportate tax, then when the Finance folks were questioned, the whole story changed to the 15% corporate tax only.  Guess some powerful folks are not too happy with that change.  Wonder if we will even see it this year to begin next year.

[ronnie50]

21 minutes ago, Dogmatix said:

My concern is that the RD has already drafted an amendment to Section 40 in order to introduce global taxation for Thai residents.  

That's my concern too. The 2023 announcement was just a stepping stone IMO - first shoe to drop kind of thing. While the RTG needs more revenue, I do actually think this is also about their aspirations for joining OECD, by trying to show that Thailand is on its way to standard global income tax processes for all residents. I think that's why Portugal and others have been changing their rules - due to external pressures on them (e.g. not just from OECD).

[marino28]

20 hours ago, Dogmatix said:

He still pretends that the reinterpretation was done under pressure from OECD which has never shown any interest in personal income tax. This was just an excuse. The whole thrust of OECD on tax is limited to corporate income taxes and getting members to impose minimum 15% corporate taxes, while ensuring that multinationals don't avoid this by using multiple tax domiciles through subsidiaries.  Thailand is not even a member of OECD and is unlikely to quality for the foreseeable future.

 

Since he is presumably an intelligent person, he must know that personal income tax is nothing to do with OECD.  How can Thais trust someone whose argument is predicated on an obvious lie?  

 

And what about the pronouncements by the Revenue Department that Thailand will introduce global tax this year and has already drafted the simple amendment to the Revenue Code?  Should we put 2 and 2 together and accept that the way to encourage more investment capital remitted to Thailand will be to introduce global taxation, so it is doesn't matter, if you remit your income to Thailand or not because they will tax the b'jezus out of it  before you even remit it to Thailand.

I consider you very knowledgeable. Do you really think worldwide taxation is possible? From what I read in the article, I was hoping for exemptions, not new taxes.

 

 

[anchadian]

 

[NoDisplayName]

21 minutes ago, anchadian said:

 

 

Why post from this source, other than for the entertainment value?

 

 

[Negita43]

5 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

A foreigner who spends >183 days in the US would be considered tax resident, same-same as here in Thailand.

183 not 180??

[NoDisplayName]

5 minutes ago, Negita43 said:

183 not 180??

 

Okay, you caught me!

 

It's over 179 days in Thailand, over 183 days in the US.

[stevenl]

3 hours ago, Dogmatix said:

 

Unlikely.  They would need to make an announcement expeditiously cancelling or modifying the announcements made in 2023. Seeing as some people have already filed their 2024 taxes and paid the tax on remitted investments, I can't see them doing that at this late stage.

They could do whatever they want. There was an announcement, not more. If people paid based on that, the RD will gladly accept but not feel the need for repayment if the position changes.

 

I think they won't announce anything, but will simply not collect.

[anrcaccount]

3 hours ago, Dogmatix said:

 

Unlikely.  They would need to make an announcement expeditiously cancelling or modifying the announcements made in 2023. Seeing as some people have already filed their 2024 taxes and paid the tax on remitted investments, I can't see them doing that at this late stage.

 

Apart from one single report on here of some individual paying a small sum (about 3000 THB), I'm yet to see any reports of any significant amount of tax paid on remitted foreign income.

 

I seriously doubt that even 1% of assessable foreign income remitted in 2024 will be declared, let alone taxed.

 

Have you , or anyone else for that matter, ever heard of any cases of significant foreign remitted income actually being taxed in Thailand?