Tax Filing Experience: Jomtien [March-2025]

[Jingthing]

17 minutes ago, atpeace said:

We disagree and I don't think Thailand going after pre 2024 savings.  They like the rest of the world is grappling with tax residents using their country as a tax haven.  Many people are living here in Thailand earning income and not paying taxes to any country.  Many on this forum feel this is justifiable and I'm not one of them. 

 

"If" Thailand does enforce new taxes on expats, it will be an attempt to tax the freeloaders and their own citizens earning income outside of Thailand. I'm not concerned at this point but it is getting interesting 🙂

Pensions aren't savings.

 

[NoDisplayName]

15 minutes ago, JimGant said:

This is an on-going argument -- especially by jingling. Yes, prior to Por 162 -- which exempts all pre 2024 income -- private pension remittances were taxable by Thailand. But Por 162 exempted pre 2024 income, which both traditional and Roth IRAs consist of. Thus, Por 162 'trumps' the DTA language that, otherwise, would make IRA remittances to Thailand taxable.

 

Is that the entire remittance, or only the portion declared as original capital, with capital gains being assessable?

 

If that be the case, what is the cost basis?  Purchase or Dec 31 2023 NAV?

 

 

[atpeace]

Just now, Jingthing said:

Pensions aren't savings.

 

OK but they are and you're stuck on it isn't covered by a DTA.  Please show any document that stipulates pensions aren't savings.  We get it - private pensions aren't covered by the DTA and I understand why they aren't covered. 

 

2025 private pensions (saving/investment/whatever) will be assessable but I'm not even sure this will be enforced.

[atpeace]

7 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

Is that the entire remittance, or only the portion declared as original capital, with capital gains being assessable?

 

If that be the case, what is the cost basis?  Purchase or Dec 31 2023 NAV?

 

 

Your guess is as good as anyone's.  Is Thailand going to get a forensic tax unit to analyze what portion of 2024 saving are based on cost basis.  I seriously doubt it and hence the pre 2024 exemption.  In the future theoretically earning realized or unrealized will be taxable.  

[JimGant]

29 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Pensions aren't savings.

Yes, but IRAs are.

[Jingthing]

8 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Yes, but IRAs are.

IRAs are pensions according to TRD.

I've documented this before.

[Jingthing]

30 minutes ago, atpeace said:

OK but they are and you're stuck on it isn't covered by a DTA.  Please show any document that stipulates pensions aren't savings.  We get it - private pensions aren't covered by the DTA and I understand why they aren't covered. 

 

2025 private pensions (saving/investment/whatever) will be assessable but I'm not even sure this will be enforced.

They are.

Remittances taxable only by Thailand.

 

[JimGant]

13 minutes ago, atpeace said:

Your guess is as good as anyone's.  Is Thailand going to get a forensic tax unit to analyze what portion of 2024 saving are based on cost basis.  I seriously doubt it and hence the pre 2024 exemption.  In the future theoretically earning realized or unrealized will be taxable.  

As of Dec 31, 2023, my IRA consisted of stock mutual funds. All originally funded with pre 2024 wage income, then every year subsequently, these mutual funds declared dividends and cap gains -- thus more tax deferred INCOME reinvested in the fund. So, by Dec 31, 2023, my IRA was ALL pre 2024 income. That is was ALL tax deferred income, by US tax standards, is a no never mind in the eyes of Por 162. Thus, my IRA balance on Dec 31, 2023 is non assessable income, as far as Thai taxes are concerned. Again, as previously said, Por 162 overrides the DTA language saying this remitted income is primarily taxable by Thailand.

[Jingthing]

My reading reflects a consensus of tax advisor advice confirmed by TRD.

.

 

[atpeace]

2 minutes ago, JimGant said:

As of Dec 31, 2023, my IRA consisted of stock mutual funds. All originally funded with pre 2024 wage income, then every year subsequently, these mutual funds declared dividends and cap gains -- thus more tax deferred INCOME reinvested in the fund. So, by Dec 31, 2023, my IRA was ALL pre 2024 income. That is was ALL tax deferred income, by US tax standards, is a no never mind in the eyes of Por 162. Thus, my IRA balance on Dec 31, 2023 is non assessable income, as far as Thai taxes are concerned. Again, as previously said, Por 162 overrides the DTA language saying this remitted income is primarily taxable by Thailand.

I agree and how some are confused is beyond my understanding.  I think it is the DTA that trips them up but not sure.  Will they go after future earning in private pensions? Maybe...

[atpeace]

10 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

My reading reflects a consensus of tax advisor advice confirmed by TRD.

.

 

This thread is going nowhere as all "new Thai tax threads".  It has been anything but interesting... Adios!

[JimGant]

33 minutes ago, atpeace said:

We get it - private pensions aren't covered by the DTA and I understand why they aren't covered. 

Actually, they are covered. And the DTA gives not only primary taxation of such pensions to Thailand, but "exclusive" taxation rights. However, the US "saving clause" reduces this to only "primary" taxation rights, meaning, the US has secondary rights -- so can also tax these pensions, but has to absorb a tax credit for the Thai taxes paid.

 

Now, the DTA treats IRA payouts as "pensions," for DTA purposes -- but since IRAs are really tax deferred income/savings -- this is where Por 162 comes into play, and exempts all those pre 2024 IRA savings/income from Thai taxation.

[JimGant]

13 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

My reading reflects a consensus of tax advisor advice confirmed by TRD

Sadly, much of this advice is questionable, no doubt due to the lack of any definitive/consistent language out of TRD. A situation where ones own reasoning can make more sense.

[JimGant]

1 hour ago, NoDisplayName said:

Is that the entire remittance, or only the portion declared as original capital, with capital gains being assessable?

 

If that be the case, what is the cost basis?  Purchase or Dec 31 2023 NAV?

The annual reinvested cap gains of my stock mutual fund have now become "tax deferred income," same as the original wage that established that stock mutual fund. Thus, Dec 31 2023 value of my IRA is all covered by Por 162 edict -- i.e., it's non assessable savings.

[Jingthing]

55 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Actually, they are covered. And the DTA gives not only primary taxation of such pensions to Thailand, but "exclusive" taxation rights. However, the US "saving clause" reduces this to only "primary" taxation rights, meaning, the US has secondary rights -- so can also tax these pensions, but has to absorb a tax credit for the Thai taxes paid.

 

Now, the DTA treats IRA payouts as "pensions," for DTA purposes -- but since IRAs are really tax deferred income/savings -- this is where Por 162 comes into play, and exempts all those pre 2024 IRA savings/income from Thai taxation.

Yet other than your opinion about Por 162, I doubt you will be able to cite one Thai tax advisor that supports your reading of that. But I would be happy to be proven wrong about that.

People should realize the mainstream reading at this time is that disbursements from IRAs Roth and Trad, and 401Ks are fully accessable if remitted (but under the DTA not subject to U.S. tax). Nothing about reading them as pre 2024 "savings" and nothing about considering the underlying investments WITHIN them as if they were regular investments outside of retirement account/pensions.

[JimGant]

9 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

but under the DTA not subject to U.S. tax

Traditional IRAs and 401ks are certainly subject to US tax, per the saving clause found in all DTAs. So, all this argument about IRAs not being taxable by Thailand, per Por 162, is only a matter of interest, but certainly not one of tax savings -- since either Thailand or the US, or both, will collect your taxes (subject to credit relieve, of course).

[Jingthing]

8 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Traditional IRAs and 401ks are certainly subject to US tax, per the saving clause found in all DTAs. So, all this argument about IRAs not being taxable by Thailand, per Por 162, is only a matter of interest, but certainly not one of tax savings -- since either Thailand or the US, or both, will collect your taxes (subject to credit relieve, of course).

Again, not savings. Pensions.

We're on different planets on this.

I'm going with the at least current MAINSTREAM interpretation.

Your theory though you back it up, in my curent understanding, lacks mainstream Thai tax advisor agreement.

Again happy to be corrected.

I will be starting a dedicated thread about U.S. private pensions (IRAs and 401ks) based on a PCEC video but it won't be about your theory. It will be about further questions about the mainstream reading which I have been merely repeating. 

You know, you may indeed be "right" but if TRD doesn't think you are, what difference does it make?