Split AC Keeps Freezing over in exercise room

[atpeace]

11 minutes ago, GammaGlobulin said:

 

Don't worry about the cold front, something that I am aware is now approaching, and here already, actually.

 

Anyway, in fact, you CAN test during the cold front.

 

All you need is a small space heater.

 

Before you begin this test, measure the humidity in the room.

 

a. Set the heater to about 1200 watts of heat, and place in your exercise room.

 

b. Turn on your AC, and set the thermostat to 16-degrees C.

 

c. This will cause your AC's compressor to begin operating continuously, and at FULL Power.

 

d. IF your AC is functioning properly, and if the gas pressures are as stipulated by the manufacturer...then....

 

This will cause your AC to immediately begin condensing the water vapor in the exercise room.

 

e. If you want to check the output of your AC (how much water is being removed per hour), then just go outside and put a container under the drain pipe from the evaporator. 

You should place the container under the outlet of the drain pipe (hose) from the evaporator at the time that your AC is switched on.

And, you should measure the amount of water which drains from the hose for the FIRST full hour.

 

f. Next, after the first hour has elapsed and you have measured the amount of water which has condensed, then record the humidity, and turn off the heater.

f. Don't turn off the AC, yet...of course.

 

g.  Wait, and after the room temperature returns to about 20-degrees C, then record the humidity, once again.

 

g. Turn off AC....if you want...It's OK, now...

 

 

Yes, I am the RAMBLER, as you say.

The Stones even wrote a great song about me,...

When I met them, back in the day.

 

 

 

No space heater - it's Thailand.  Thanks for the other info.  I'm going to stick to my functionality test which is much easier.  If I can keep the treadmill room between 20-23c and humidity rarely crossing 60%, I'm a happy man.  I'll still be sweaty but with a fan also it will be comfortably warm. 

 

The amount of water extracted by the AC would be interesting.  I already built a funnel from where it come out to the Infront of my sliding glass doors  so I can verify the system is working.  It's is a quite amazing the amount that is running across the patio.   Once the flow stops, I know that in 10 minutes the room will become miserably hot and muggy. I like numbers so next hot day (won't have to wait long ) I'll do that and my bet is 2 liters an hour.  Cheers

[sometimewoodworker]

24 minutes ago, GammaGlobulin said:

 

Don't worry about the cold front, something that I am aware is now approaching, and here already, actually.

 

Anyway, in fact, you CAN test during the cold front.

 

All you need is a small space heater.

 

Before you begin this test, measure the humidity in the room.

 

a. Set the heater to about 1200 watts of heat, and place in your exercise room.

 

b. Turn on your AC, and set the thermostat to 16-degrees C.

 

c. This will cause your AC's compressor to begin operating continuously, and at FULL Power.

 

d. IF your AC is functioning properly, and if the gas pressures are as stipulated by the manufacturer...then....

 

This will cause your AC to immediately begin condensing the water vapor in the exercise room.

 

e. If you want to check the output of your AC (how much water is being removed per hour), then just go outside and put a container under the drain pipe from the evaporator. 

You should place the container under the outlet of the drain pipe (hose) from the evaporator at the time that your AC is switched on.

And, you should measure the amount of water which drains from the hose for the FIRST full hour.

 

f. Next, after the first hour has elapsed and you have measured the amount of water which has condensed, then record the humidity, and turn off the heater.

f. Don't turn off the AC, yet...of course.

 

g.  Wait, and after the room temperature returns to about 20-degrees C, then record the humidity, once again.

 

g. Turn off AC....if you want...It's OK, now...

 

 

Yes, I am the RAMBLER, as you say.

The Stones even wrote a great song about me,...

When I met them, back in the day.

 

 

 

Crucial and IMPORTANT Note to ensure success of this test:  IF you sweat as much as you say you do, which I very much DOUBT, then, please, for mercy's sake, DO NOT exercise on your treadmill during this test, which would compromise the validity of this test.  Just leave the room. And keep all doors and windows tightly shut.  Thank you!

 

 

You have postulated an invalid test. The RH of the room will rapidly drop to as low as the AC will allow, probably within 15 minutes, the volume of water collected will have to relation to the maximum it can extract as the room humidity will likely have dropped to 30% or under long before the test completion.

 

If you are going to design a test that can actually produce valid results then you must go back to the drawing board and get the factors correct.

It is certainly possible to achieve accurate information but not if you half a*r*s*e the test

[GammaGlobulin]

8 minutes ago, atpeace said:

No space heater - it's Thailand.  Thanks for the other info.  I'm going to stick to my functionality test which is much easier.  If I can keep the treadmill room between 20-23c and humidity rarely crossing 60%, I'm a happy man.  I'll still be sweaty but with a fan also it will be comfortably warm. 

 

The amount of water extracted by the AC would be interesting.  I already built a funnel from where it come out to the Infront of my sliding glass doors  so I can verify the system is working.  It's is a quite amazing the amount that is running across the patio.   Once the flow stops, I know that in 10 minutes the room will become miserably hot and muggy. I like numbers so next hot day (won't have to wait long ) I'll do that and my bet is 2 liters an hour.  Cheers

 

Of course, one more thing, and there is always "one more thing":

 

You should turn-on your AC about 30 minutes before you intend to use the treadmill.

 

Set the AC thermostat at the lowest setting (probably 16-degrees C) and highest fan speed.

This will lower the room temperature as much as possible.

 

Then, as you exercise, and as you say, the room temperature will rise. As the air temperature rises, the RH in the room will decrease, commensurately.

I am sure you already know the relationship between air temperature and RH, but for those who don't here is the relationship..

The inverse relationship between RH and temp is...

 

This is why it would be useful to cool the room down to lowest possible temp before exercising, and then let the temp rise which will dramatically lower the RH, even though it will not lower the absolute humidity....obviously.

 

[GammaGlobulin]

13 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

the volume of water collected will have to relation to the maximum it can extract as the room humidity will likely have dropped to 30% or under long before the test completion.

 

No it won't.

There is much air leakage in any normal room.

The AC, will continue to extract water from the air, during the full hour of the test.

The purpose of the test is just to get some idea of approximately how much water is being extracted from the air over an hour period of time.

 

Also, more than an hour will be required to extract enough water to reach an RH of 30%, which is something IMPOSSIBLE with an AC, if the outside RH is about 80, or so.

 

And, before you are too hasty to reply, you have no evidence to show that what you have just stated is....TRUE.

In fact, it is false, IMHO.

 

How do I know?

Because...

I have the EVIDENCE....of course....!!!!

 

 

[atpeace]

3 minutes ago, GammaGlobulin said:

 

Of course, one more thing, and there is always "one more thing":

 

You should turn-on your AC about 30 minutes before you intend to use the treadmill.

 

Set the AC thermostat at the lowest setting (probably 16-degrees C) and highest fan speed.

This will lower the room temperature as much as possible.

 

Then, as you exercise, and as you say, the room temperature will rise. As the air temperature rises, the RH in the room will decrease, commensurately.

I am sure you already know the relationship between air temperature and RH, but for those who don't here is the relationship..

The inverse relationship between RH and temp is...

 

This is why it would be useful to cool the room down to lowest possible temp before exercising, and then let the temp rise which will dramatically lower the RH, even though it will not lower the absolute humidity....obviously.

 

All good but not interested 🙂 If the AC keeps the room at the desired temp, then I'm cool.  In this home over the the last 3 years I have had the treadmill in three different rooms with 3 different ACs.  All three have frozen over and two of them did it often during the hot season. Also happened in previous homes and never in my non exercise rooms.   I have enough data points for me but respect your opinion nonetheless.  Take care

[sometimewoodworker]

21 minutes ago, GammaGlobulin said:

 

No it won't.

There is much air leakage in any normal room.

The AC, will continue to extract water from the air, during the full hour of the test.

The purpose of the test is just to get some idea of approximately how much water is being extracted from the air over an hour period of time.

 

Also, more than an hour will be required to extract enough water to reach an RH of 30%, which is something IMPOSSIBLE with an AC, if the outside RH is about 80, or so.

 

And, before you are too hasty to reply, you have no evidence to show that what you have just stated is....TRUE.

In fact, it is false, IMHO.

 

How do I know?

Because...

I have the EVIDENCE....of course....!!!!

 

 

Your test is totally flawed and based on erroneous assumptions.

 

Yes rooms have air leaks. No the humidity doesn’t rise at any significant rate. Yes I have data to support those points. Your assumption that an AC can’t achieve 30% humidity with an outside humidity is laughable wrong. That I wouldn’t want that low a humidity is irrelevant. 
 

A datum point apropos of nothing in particular is that our house has a humidity level that is virtually always at least 10% lower than the outside even when there has been no AC running for hours.

[GammaGlobulin]

16 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Your assumption that an AC can’t achieve 30% humidity with an outside humidity is laughable wrong.

 

Go ahead and laugh, then, if you will.

But, you are still wrong, and I, Sir, am RIGHT!

 

 

 

 

The above are the results for a 24,000BTU AC running for 15 minutes at HIGHEST Fan setting, and LOWEST Thermostat setting (16-degrees C).

 

The bedroom room size is approximately 5 meters x 4 meters.

 

No air leakage through windows which have been boarded up and sealed.

(Of course, there is still leakage of air, to some degree, and this is why it is impossible to achieve 30% RH in-room, with an outdoor RH of 64%.  It would be IMPOSSIBLE to reduce the in-room RH to 30%, given these conditions. The outdoor RH is just too high....  After all, my bedroom is neither a closed system, nor an isolated system.  Did you think that I thought it might be?????  How, ODD.)

 

Note:  Of course, I always use TWO XiaoMi Air Purifiers, running 24/7.  Both purifiers are in the same bedroom.  And, the readings on both machines are consistent with each other.

 

 

This is the machine being used.

 

[GammaGlobulin]

24 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

A datum point apropos of nothing in particular is that our house has a humidity level that is virtually always at least 10% lower than the outside even when there has been no AC running for hours.

 

One reason for this RH difference, in all likelihood, is the temperature difference between inside and outside, if you keep your windows open.

If windows are closed, then this difference might be due to the cold morning air in the house, gradually warming throughout the day, as the house heats up, And if the windows are shut, then the RH will decrease as the air inside the house increases in temperature.

 

[GammaGlobulin]

I have noticed that there seems to be a bit of confusion concerning:

 

What volume of liquid water would need to be removed from room air in order to achieve any given drop in Relative Humidity, either at the same room temperature, or at two different temperatures.

 

This is easy to calculate, of course.

If I were to do this, then I would just calculate the mass of water vapor in the room, at 25-degrees C, and RH of whatever it might be, say 80% RH, the hypothetical starting point.

 

Then I would subtract the mass of water vapor in the room, at 20-degrees C, and RH of 50%, the hypothetical desired RH and temperature.

 

So then, given these conditions:

 

Just what volume (minimum) of liquid water must be removed to achieve these results?

Of course, this would be a minimum, since we can expect quite a bit of water vapor from outside the room to enter, continuously.

 

Therefore:  What would you say is the MINIMUM volume of liquid water which must be extracted in this scenario?

 

Anyone wish to hazard an EDUCATED guess?

 

This value is actually important to know, when selecting an AC.

 

In addition:  For some UNFATHOMABLE reason, especially in Thailand, it seems that sales people are underestimating the size and cooling capacity of ACs, for use in any given room volume.

Why is this?

IDK.

 

However, in order to avoid such a calamity happening to YOU, then I would suggest buying ACs as I do.

My bedroom, small I would say, has a volume of approximately 60 cubic meters, and if you also add in the bathroom, then probably around 65 cubic meters, give or take.

Since I do not have much sun exposure, most of the time, and since the walls and ceiling is not well-insulated...

I chose a 24,000BTU AC unit for this room.

 

Was this a good choice?

YES....!!!

 

Why?

Because I chose an inverter AC which is able to supply a range of (BTU) cooling, from about 7000BTU up to 24,000BTU, depending on conditions. And....

Also, since this is an inverter, the compressor will run almost continuously, which will provide excellent dehumidification during ALL 3 Seasons in Thailand.

 

I realize that there are those on this Topic, and also on the Forum, who believe I don't know anything about ACs....

And, I do not blame them, because...so very often...I sound like a complete...

FOOL.

And, I like it like this.

This is the way it should be...

For me....IF...

I really want to enjoy my life in Thailand.

 

But still, when actually BUYING ACs here in Thailand, it is always best NOT to be perceived as a fool.

And, also, one should not ACT the fool when making AC purchases, because...

Bad results can be the result of one's folly.

 

==================

 

Now, finally, let us please return to the simple absolute humidity calculation question that I posed above:

 

This is important, and one should know how to estimate these values.

Some here, obviously, have WAY underestimated the water vapor content of room air, and how much needs to be removed in order to end up with a more ...

Comfortable living environment.

 

And thus, I ask you:

 

Can you provide the correct volume of water which must be removed in the above example?

And, what is your preferred way to calculate this value?

 

=======================

Before closing this single comment, I would like to wish everyone....

HAPPY HYDRATING, while exercising in this heat...

Especially since we are now in the HOT Season, in Thailand.

 

 

 

 

[atpeace]

1 hour ago, GammaGlobulin said:

 

 

Can you provide the correct volume of water which must be removed in the above example?

And, what is your preferred way to calculate this value?

 

=======================

Before closing this single comment, I would like to wish everyone....

HAPPY HYDRATING, while exercising in this heat...

Especially since we are now in the HOT Season, in Thailand.

 

 

 

 

That was a lengthy read and I apologize for skimming through most of it and in the end I ended up not really understanding most of it 🙂  

 

I'll try to answer your last question from my perspective.  I need to remove roughly 2 liters an hour if I begin with a RH of 50 and I want it to below 60 while maintaining  the temp of 22c.  I sweat about 2 liters an hour  running hard outside continuously.  I very rarely run for an hour hard indoors because I break it up into intervals so 1 liter would be a good guess.  E.g., today I did 5x3 mins with 2 minute rest at 95% effort followed by another roughly 30 minutes easy and ended with another 7 minutes at 85% effort.  The RH steadily climbed during the 5x3 portion to 64% and steadily declined to 55 following the 5x3 and even declined further when doing the less hard 7 minute portion.  After 90 minutes on the treadmill  the RH was 52 which is close to perfection and the temp was 21c. 

 

I ran at the worst time which is around 12:30pm where the sun is shining directly on the rough.  Today was cold so probably comparable to most days I start around 9am.

 

My solution of letting the AC run for at least 3 hours before starting and not setting it to 18c but a more conservative 22c where liquid doesn't accumulate on the coils is working for now.  Chrossy had a good idea in regards to using the dry mode but regretfully this caused the coils to freeze up quicker on 2 out of the three tests.  If I ran in dry mode but increased the temp to 26 it would probably not freeze over but that is too hot.

 

As Sometimewoodworker suggested, I will get around to picking up a dehumidifier.  My bet is that this would solve the problem but with higher energy usage which isn't a concern because I have solar.

 

 

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, atpeace said:

My bet is that this would solve the problem but with higher energy usage which isn't a concern because I have solar.

If you take a look at my recent post you will see that the dehumidifier (mine is double the size you are considering) is a very conservative user of power, to reiterate mine actually uses 320W at 225v 49%RH though the stated maximum is 700W. 
 

So of course if you run it simultaneously with the AC it will use more power but not much more than a few old style light bulbs, however if you want to just drop the humidity before exercising then it is much more energy efficient than just running the AC. My suggestion is check how long the AC is required to drop the room to your desired temperature, then start the dehumidifier an hour or 2 before you need the AC. This will reduce the total power usage.

 

FWIW the Xiaomi I found on HomePro. The brand is reputable as is the shop, you may find a better price elsewhere.

[atpeace]

2 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

If you take a look at my recent post you will see that the dehumidifier (mine is double the size you are considering) is a very conservative user of power, to reiterate mine actually uses 320W at 225v 49%RH though the stated maximum is 700W. 
 

So of course if you run it simultaneously with the AC it will use more power but not much more than a few old style light bulbs, however if you want to just drop the humidity before exercising then it is much more energy efficient than just running the AC. My suggestion is check how long the AC is required to drop the room to your desired temperature, then start the dehumidifier an hour or 2 before you need the AC. This will reduce the total power usage.

 

FWIW the Xiaomi I found on HomePro. The brand is reputable as is the shop, you may find a better price elsewhere.

Yes, I checked it out on shopee and it had good reviews.  Power isn't an issue since I have enough solar to run the AC for hours before to bring down the RH to 45-50 RH.  Takes a few hours and I can't set the the temp too low or it will freeze over during the run.  I think the reason for this is the dry mode process usually maintains the temp or slightly increases it on most ACs but this TLC AC lets me drop the temp to 16.  The dry process increases the moisture on the coils and at a low temp they freeze.  Funny, I thought I could get around that by using the fan only for 10 minutes after the using the dry mode.  The coils did dry but it blew all the moisture back into the room 😞 

 

Appreciate the advice and the humidifier recommendation.  Your arguments with Gamma were also entertaining.  I am going to tinker with AC I have and see if it as simple as turning it on a few hours before I jump on the treadmill and not setting at below 20c.  Last two days this has worked perfectly.  My shoes were dry today after a 90 minute run which is rare 🙂  

 

 

[sometimewoodworker]

@atpeace I am glad that you got something out of the thread. Banging my head on a brick wall would probably be less painful and would bring better results, though BetaSméagol has an orange viewpoint that is indestructible despite proof that, that view is unrepresentative of different circumstances and the ways that objectives can be obtained.

 

Give something foreign and computational failure is the result, calcification of the ability to see that one set of actions may not be appropriate seems evident.

 

 

[atpeace]

50 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

@atpeace I am glad that you got something out of the thread. Banging my head on a brick wall would probably be less painful and would bring better results, though BetaSméagol has an orange viewpoint that is indestructible despite proof that, that view is unrepresentative of different circumstances and the ways that objectives can be obtained.

 

Give something foreign and computational failure is the result, calcification of the ability to see that one set of actions may not be appropriate seems evident.

 

 

Thanks, don't take this as an insult, the above post is similar to Gamma minus 500 words.

[GammaGlobulin]

25 minutes ago, atpeace said:

Thanks, don't take this as an insult, the above post is similar to Gamma minus 500 words.

 

So, YOU, say, Sir.

But, I, for one, very much disagree....(haha, but serious, too)....

 

Anyway, I would like to share with you an anecdote of an AC-problem time, back in 2001, just at the same time the NYC towers were hit, on 9/11.

And, this is not a joke comment....

 

So what happened was, I tried to save money by buying a cheap AC for the bedroom of my house in Taipei, situated on one of the most exclusive mountain housing developments, HuaYuan XinCheng, fully of million dollar houses.

 

a. I purchased a Samsung 9000BTU split-air wall unit, which was cheap as heck.  A ridiculously- low price.

b. I Turned it on, and used it for a few days.

c. Although it was summer in Taiwan, and the weather was nothing out of the ordinary for that climate...the Samsung machine began to freeze up several times a day.

d. I fiddled with the settings, to no avail.  Ice, ice, and more ice, on the evaporator coil.

e. I called Samsung in, and they checked it, but could not solve the icing problem.

f. Long story short, I told Samsung Taiwan to take back their machine.

g. I bought a Panasonic 12,000BTU unit for the same room.

h. The Panasonic machine was heavenly.  The temperature control, and the room temp variability on any given temp setting, was only about plus/minus 0.5-degrees C.

i. Since that time, I have learned to always buy the best. For me, the best is Panasonic. I would buy a Hitachi, maybe, but I don't have any experience using this brand.

j. Are machines supplied by Panasonic to the local market as good as Panasonic which were supplied to the Japan and Taiwan market 25 years ago? I will not say here.

 

k.  However, what I am saying is that I STILL believe, even though there are those here who completely deride my opinion, that the base cause of icing on your TCL machines is a problem with gas pressure being not right, as has already been mentioned many times. The problem is that the evaporator coil should never get down to 0-degrees C, or it will, inevitably, begin to ice up, no matter WHAT the room's RH might be.

 

I know that readers here do not agree with me.

However this is my experience.

 

Also, with older machines, when they begin to lose gas pressure due to very slow leaks:

 

a. They will freeze up.

b. They will also freeze up even if the DRY-MODE is selected.

 

I am only reporting what I know from experience.

 

More importantly, I know just how frustrating and exasperating it can be when an AC ices up intermittently.

 

And, for sure, you deserve to have an exercise room in which you can exercise in peace, WITHOUT being plagued by AC problems.

What you need is to have a room where the RH is around 55% or lower, and where the temp is about 23-degrees C.

If you can achieve these conditions, then water/sweat will evaporate more rapidly, and this will go a long way to giving you a better workout, without overheating.

 

==============

Some of the installers here say the TCL machines are good.

I would not know.

I have never used one.

 

 

[GammaGlobulin]

In addition, I would like to offer up an informal EXPERIMENT that just might settle this question of...

 

High room humidity as the prime causal factor leading to freezing of the evaporator coil:

 

a. Will this happen on a decent machine, such as a Panasonic AC?

b. Or, even with water vapor being added to the room, at a very high rate, will this NOT happen with a decent properly designed and operating AC?

 

My test method will be to take TWO 1,800-watt water kettles, and open the lids, after filling them full.

Then, I will plug them in, and let them rip.

 

Both kettles, 1.5 liters each, should be able to boil off 2-liters of water in about 30 minutes, give or take a few minutes.

 

This will DOUBLE the amount of water vapor being evaporated from the OP, during his strenuous exercise routine.

 

The OP's exercise room is only slightly smaller than my bedroom, according to what the OP has reported here on this Topic.

 

So then...

 

IF I add TWICE the amount of water vapor to the room, in HALF the time, and set my Panasonic AC to....16-degrees C....

And, IF I keep the thermostat of the Panasonic machine set at 16-degrees C.....

 

1. Will the room temperature stay around 21-degrees C...even though I will be adding about 3000-watts of heat from 2-kettles to the room?

2. How will the RH change?

3. Will the Panasonic AC ice up?

4. Will I trip the CB? (no, this cannot happen with the electrical wiring, so no worries here)

 

 

So, I figure this is the least I can do in the interest of furthering better understanding of what is really happening with the OP's TCL AC.

 

This might take a day or two, to set up this trial...and so...

 

Please stay tuned.

 

And, hope this might help, in some small way.

 

NOTE:  This is a very interesting Topic, because, here in Thailand, who is not interested in ACs, AC failures, and AC brands....?

 

NOTE2:  Although I will be conducting this experiment in my bedroom, which is now quite well sealed and protected as much as possible from drafts from outside the room... meaning I will be boiling off the water in two water kettles...STILL...I have no intention of....

 

doing any WELDING in my bedroom.

 

 

 

 

[Fruit Trader]

1 hour ago, GammaGlobulin said:

My test method will be to take TWO 1,800-watt water kettles, and open the lids, after filling them full.

Then, I will plug them in, and let them rip.

 

Both kettles, 1.5 liters each, should be able to boil off 2-liters of water in about 30 minutes, give or take a few minutes.

 

This will DOUBLE the amount of water vapor being evaporated from the OP, during his strenuous exercise routine.

 

The OP's exercise room is only slightly smaller than my bedroom, according to what the OP has reported here on this Topic.

 

So then...

 

IF I add TWICE the amount of water vapor to the room, in HALF the time, and set my Panasonic AC to....16-degrees C....

And, IF I keep the thermostat of the Panasonic machine set at 16-degrees C.....

 

1. Will the room temperature stay around 21-degrees C...even though I will be adding about 3000-watts of heat from 2-kettles to the room?

2. How will the RH change?

3. Will the Panasonic AC ice up?

4. Will I trip the CB? (no, this cannot happen with the electrical wiring, so no worries here)

 

Chilled food processing environments often suffer excessive icing of cooling evaporators if not turned off during end of production wash down which is often done with steaming hot water. Its an extreme example yes, but demonstrates what can happen when conditions exceed normal.

 

Modern inverter AC's monitor the evaporator coil temperature and will reduce output based on load, length of time running and fan speed. The anti icing parameters set in software would likely not handle unusual situations where room humidity is being held high.

 

AC's equipped with humidity sensing can better avoid coil icing.

 

If refrigerant levels are correct, filters clean, coil fins clear, fan clean and operating correctly, it is still possible for the evaporator to ice over if environmental conditions are outside those what the AC was designed to work with.