On 5/1/2025 at 7:03 AM, hotsun said:

Zelinsky is agreeing to this deal because it would look really bad if he didnt

Please enlighten us, Why didn't he agree to the deal on the table back in Feb.

2 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Please enlighten us, Why didn't he agree to the deal on the table back in Feb.

President Zelenskyy said any mineral exploitation by the US would need to be tied to security guarantees for Ukraine that would deter future Russian aggression. He wanted the guarantees about it to be included in the deal on paper. Trump refused. Then, Trump threw Zelenski when he came to sign the deal, out of the WH because he came to the WH to sign the deal but instead used the publicly displayed meeting to sign as his own shouting match with Trump shouting with Trump and arguing with him rather than signing the deal which was his reason for being there. 

18 hours ago, ChicagoExpat said:

I could be wrong but I didn't think Russia was anywhere in this -- that's the point.  But we haven't seen the agreement.

From what's being reported, the so-called "deal" doesn't end the war, is a bad deal for America as it's America who will end up paying, and isn't anything that Russia would agree to, in any event. Why would they? 

 

The reconstruction of Ukraine, continued American military support, and Americans profiting only from future operations to mine Ukraine's resources?   Who profits?  Blackrock. The big banks.  The warmongers.  

 

My only guess is that Trump knows this will not fly but is taking a baby step towards getting Zelenskyy to cave. 

5 minutes ago, jas007 said:

From what's being reported, the so-called "deal" doesn't end the war, is a bad deal for America as it's America who will end up paying, and isn't anything that Russia would agree to, in any event. Why would they? 

 

The reconstruction of Ukraine, continued American military support, and Americans profiting only from future operations to mine Ukraine's resources?   Who profits?  Blackrock. The big banks.  The warmongers.  

 

My only guess is that Trump knows this will not fly but is taking a baby step towards getting Zelenskyy to cave. 

 

Wow, and that from a Trump supporter.

Have you finally seen the light?

The deal can be sold by Trump to maga as a win (he's desparate for anything like that) and also can be sold by Zelinsky to his people as a necessary acceptable compromise to keep engagement with problematic disturbingly Putin adjacent Trump alive.

It provides no security guarantees.

It doesn't stop the war.

6 minutes ago, CallumWK said:

 

Wow, and that from a Trump supporter.

Have you finally seen the light?

I wouldn't call it "seeing the light."  More like seeing a bunch of nonsense that won't be taken seriously by Russia and won't end the war in any event.  The chances of this "deal" with Zelenskyy being agreed to by Russia are nil.

 

So, what is Trump up to?  Just pretending to go along with the warmonger program to please the Neocon elements?  He must know the "deal" will never fly. The war s already over, Russia won.  

 

I guess we all get to find out what Trump is up to sometime soon. 

16 minutes ago, sandyf said:

After all the rhetoric about sorting things in 24 hours, certainly anything but a win. He had to find a way out, couldn't risk the humiliation of the EU pulling a rabbit out of the hat.

When he threatened to walk away from the talks, not the response he had expected, no grovellers came forward.

So far. Trump has completed 142 of his promises made in his campaign. You can promise you will do many things but, when the decision to complete it is left in another persons hands, you can only try to complete it. the other person has the final decision. Your harping on his campaign promise of ending the war in 24 hours is ludicrous.

 

By the way. Of all of Bidens campaign promises he only kept 33 of them. More than that were not kept. And 32 of them were compromised. 

 

Seems to me Trumps doing what he said as best he can when he is able to be the one making the decision. Even the President can not order Zelenski and Putin to stop fighting. 

10 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

The deal can be sold by Trump to maga as a win (he's desparate for anything like that) and also can be sold by Zelinsky to his people as a necessary acceptable compromise to keep engagement with problematic disturbingly Putin adjacent Trump alive.

It provides no security guarantees.

It doesn't stop the war.

Most importantly, it won't be agreed to by Russia, at least not in its present form.  

 

And if Russia doesn't agree, what does Trump have, really?  Nothing. And he won't be able to sell "nothing" to anyone, including his supporters.  The idea is to end the war, not continue the war. 

2 minutes ago, thesetat said:

Seems to me Trumps doing what he said as best he can when he is able to be the one making the decision. Even the President can not order Zelenski and Putin to stop fighting. 

I don't think it's a serous effort by Trump to do anything much.  He must surely know Russia won't sign onto such an agreement.  

 

As for Zelenskyy and Putin?  Without US support, Zelenskyy is finished.  Everyone knows that, including Zelenskyy.  Even the EU knows that. Or, if they don't they will surely find out. 

16 hours ago, BLMFem said:

BTW, you never answered my question regarding your view on the deal made between President Zelensky and Trump?

What say you?

my opinion has always been that Ukraine was told to fight by the UK & UK, in order to drain Russias economy, (Clinton said so herself in an interview in the very beginning) while at the same time indebting themselves for decades.

The land and minerals were always how they'd get paid back. UK have done a 10+ yr mining deal for return of their loans, I don't know about other NATO countries, US have their deal, the land was opened up for sale to foreign corps, you think much of those profitts will got to the ukranian people?

Blackrock & vanguard etc getting all reconstruction contracts, all foreign intrests taking bits of Ukraine, while you lot lap up the distraction propaganda.

It's always about him isn't it. It's a WIN FOR TRUMP, supposedly? What he does is supposed to be a "WIN" for the American people. It is not. It's an embarrasement and does not represent the spirit of many Americans. Holding a country hostage,withholding aid for payment. Demanding a ransom for US help.

 

I don't see it that way. Just shows he's trying to apply running a private business to the business of running a country. A country is NOT A BUSINESS.

 

Is it a "WIN"  for the people he represents? No, the USA should be an example of good will and global leadership. But what does Trump do. Make a small country PAY FOR THE HELP OF THE USA. And they are paying for their lives!!

 

Holding a country hostage for help in war (US was giving help until Trump) and demanding a ransom in the form of "mineral rights".

 

 

3 minutes ago, StandardIssue said:

It's always about him isn't it. It's a WIN FOR TRUMP, supposedly? What he does is supposed to be a "WIN" for the American people. It is not. It's an embarrasement and does not represent the spirit of many Americans. Holding a country hostage and demanding a ransom for US help.

 

I don't see it that way. Just shows he's trying to apply running a private business to the business of running a country. A country is NOT A BUSINESS.

 

Is it a "WIN"  for the people he represents? No, the USA should be an example of good will and global leadership. But what does Trump do. Make a small country PAY FOR THE HELP OF THE USA. And they are paying for their lives!!

 

Holding a country hostage for help in war (US was giving help until Trump) and demanding a ransom in the form of "mineral rights".

 

 

Actually, running a country is like a business or should be. You want to improve, your workers or citizens want to be paid more with more benefits and you do not want to operate at a loss. You want to supply them with insurance to cover medical costs so the money they make is not affected so much by injury or illness. you want to make deals for infrastructure to create new products and sell other products. Running a country is the biggest business there is. It even comes with a HR department, security department, sales department, All on a worldwide scale though. 

7 minutes ago, jas007 said:

Most importantly, it won't be agreed to by Russia, at least not in its present form.  

 

And if Russia doesn't agree, what does Trump have, really?  Nothing. And he won't be able to sell "nothing" to anyone, including his supporters.  The idea is to end the war, not continue the war. 

It seems clear that as a MAGA person you are a Russia supporter (yes, yes, "you only want to see the war end"... on Russia's terms) but literally everyone else (except Russia) is relieved Trump finally sees a reason not to sell Ukraine to Russia.  So it's progress from where we were a few weeks ago.  Here is the text of the deal.  I'm thrilled with the "Whereas" clauses.  https://kyivindependent.com/the-full-text-of-the-us-ukraine-minerals-agreement/

32 minutes ago, sandyf said:

After all the rhetoric about sorting things in 24 hours, certainly anything but a win. He had to find a way out, couldn't risk the humiliation of the EU pulling a rabbit out of the hat.

When he threatened to walk away from the talks, not the response he had expected, no grovellers came forward.

Regardless of the 24hours, he is still trying to end the war, which would not have happened had the warmongers puppet Harris won, I think the situation would have escalated rapidly. 

Zman got all gobby in the WH the first time and ruined that deal, then brought Crimea into the mix which is a big 'no' for Russia, so it seems Z man is purposely prolonging things, probably under fear of death

11 minutes ago, thesetat said:

So far. Trump has completed 142 of his promises made in his campaign.

 

Please enlighten us what those 142 completed promises are.

Do you count each deported individual as a completed promise?

Do you count his silly tariffs, for which he doesn't have a single trade deal yet, as a completed promise?

Is the 90% shortfall of the DOGE cut backs a completed promise?

 

4 minutes ago, StandardIssue said:

It's always about him isn't it. It's a WIN FOR TRUMP, supposedly? What he does is supposed to be a "WIN" for the American people. It is not. It's an embarrasement and does not represent the spirit of many Americans. Holding a country hostage and demanding a ransom for US help.

 

I don't see it that way. Just shows he's trying to apply running a private business to the business of running a country. A country is NOT A BUSINESS.

 

Is it a "WIN"  for the people he represents? No, the USA should be an example of good will and global leadership. But what does Trump do. Make a small country PAY FOR THE HELP OF THE USA. And they are paying for their lives!!

 

Holding a country hostage for help in war (US was giving help until Trump) and demanding a ransom in the form of "mineral rights".

 

 

Even with  continued America support, Ukraine can't win.  So far, even with all the support they received, they lost.  It's over.

 

So what's Trump really doing with this "deal"?  It's not a deal to end the war at all.  And if Russia doesn't agree, then what?

 

Nobody is going to be mining anything. No "reconstruction" will take place.  The entire country of Ukraine will be lost. 

 

Maybe Trump is just going through the motions to satisfy the nutcase Neocons.  He knows full well the deal is no deal, but he can say he "tried" and it didn't work.   At that point, the real negotiations can begin. 

2 minutes ago, CallumWK said:

 

Please enlighten us what those 142 completed promises are.

Do you count each deported individual as a completed promise?

Do you count his silly tariffs, for which he doesn't have a single trade deal yet, as a completed promise?

Is the 90% shortfall of the DOGE cut backs a completed promise?

 

Trump has signed at least 142 executive orders so far, which, according to the American Presidency Project, is more than any other US president in their first 100 days in office.

An executive order is a directive issued by the president to federal agencies that has the force of law but does not require congressional approval.

 

 

You can google the details yourself. 

2 minutes ago, thesetat said:

Actually, running a country is like a business or should be.

 

Everyone knows Trump's history of running his own businesses, so we all know also what the result this time will be.

15 minutes ago, StandardIssue said:

It's always about him isn't it. It's a WIN FOR TRUMP, supposedly? What he does is supposed to be a "WIN" for the American people. It is not. It's an embarrasement and does not represent the spirit of many Americans. Holding a country hostage,withholding aid for payment. Demanding a ransom for US help.

 

I don't see it that way. Just shows he's trying to apply running a private business to the business of running a country. A country is NOT A BUSINESS.

 

Is it a "WIN"  for the people he represents? No, the USA should be an example of good will and global leadership. But what does Trump do. Make a small country PAY FOR THE HELP OF THE USA. And they are paying for their lives!!

 

Holding a country hostage for help in war (US was giving help until Trump) and demanding a ransom in the form of "mineral rights".

 

 

The USA have been bullying smaller countries my entire life, either militarily or through sanctions. Get real.

 

The UK was indebt to the US for WW2 assistance for decades.

They didn't help for nothing!!

 

 

 

1 minute ago, thesetat said:

Trump has signed at least 142 executive orders so far, which, according to the American Presidency Project, is more than any other US president in their first 100 days in office.

 

Oh, you count signing a piece of paper as a completed promise? I rest my case Blind Freddy

4 minutes ago, CallumWK said:

 

Oh, you count signing a piece of paper as a completed promise? I rest my case Blind Freddy

If signing that paper changes something and keeps a promise made. Then yes. It was a campaign promise he kept. Not the same as what Biden did. Lied he would do something then did nothing or made it worse.. Ohh.. by the way, Biden had to sign a piece of paper also to either keep his campaign promise or do nothing

6 minutes ago, ChicagoExpat said:

It seems clear that as a MAGA person you are a Russia supporter (yes, yes, "you only want to see the war end"... on Russia's terms) but literally everyone else (except Russia) is relieved Trump finally sees a reason not to sell Ukraine to Russia.  So it's progress from where we were a few weeks ago.  Here is the text of the deal.  I'm thrilled with the "Whereas" clauses.  https://kyivindependent.com/the-full-text-of-the-us-ukraine-minerals-agreement/

The agreement would be all well and good in a fantasyland where Russia has not already won the war. 

 

But an agreement, without more, does not trump reality.  And the reality is that Russia holds all the cards, so to speak.  It's not a matter of selling Ukraine to Russia.  Russia already won.  

 

Anyway, we'll have to see how it plays out, but I'm afraid the longer the charade goes on, the worse it will be for Ukraine.  Right now, they have a chance to save what's left of Ukraine.  Maybe they should accept that and move on.  

13 minutes ago, thesetat said:

Actually, running a country is like a business or should be. You want to improve, your workers or citizens want to be paid more with more benefits and you do not want to operate at a loss. You want to supply them with insurance to cover medical costs so the money they make is not affected so much by injury or illness. you want to make deals for infrastructure to create new products and sell other products. Running a country is the biggest business there is. It even comes with a HR department, security department, sales department, All on a worldwide scale though. 

Exactly, countries should be run like a business, if they were and politicians were held accountable there would be a lot less wastage of public money.

 

1 minute ago, jas007 said:

The agreement would be all well and good in a fantasyland where Russia has not already won the war. 

 

But an agreement, without more, does not trump reality.  And the reality is that Russia holds all the cards, so to speak.  It's not a matter of selling Ukraine to Russia.  Russia already won.  

 

Anyway, we'll have to see how it plays out, but I'm afraid the longer the charade goes on, the worse it will be for Ukraine.  Right now, they have a chance to save what's left of Ukraine.  Maybe they should accept that and move on.  

Russia hasn't won the war.  Repeating it over and over again doesn't make it so.  I get that this is what you want, but it's simply not true in any sense.

2 minutes ago, thesetat said:

If signing that paper changes something and keeps a promise made. Then yes. It was a campaign promise he kept.

 

So I repeat my question to you. Please enlighten us which signings of pieces of papers have brought any changes. And with changes, I don't mean the fact that most of the world has changed from being friendly with the US to being hostile.

3 minutes ago, frank83628 said:

Exactly, countries should be run like a business, if they were and politicians were held accountable there would be a lot less wastage of public money.

 

 

You better hope politicians aren't held accountable, because in this particular case it will result in Trump ending up in jail

2 minutes ago, CallumWK said:

 

So I repeat my question to you. Please enlighten us which signings of pieces of papers have brought any changes. And with changes, I don't mean the fact that most of the world has changed from being friendly with the US to being hostile.

So, i replied you and you refuse to google yourself. Then you twist the words into something else. I sent facts found in google about campaign promises kept. You instead twist it now into something else. End of discussion. 

Just now, CallumWK said:

 

You better hope politicians aren't held accountable, because in this particular case it will result in Trump ending up in jail

The world would be different place if they were 

3 minutes ago, thesetat said:

6 minutes ago, CallumWK said:

 

So I repeat my question to you. Please enlighten us which signings of pieces of papers have brought any changes. And with changes, I don't mean the fact that most of the world has changed from being friendly with the US to being hostile.

So, i replied you and you refuse to google yourself. Then you twist the words into something else. I sent facts found in google about campaign promises kept. You instead twist it now into something else. End of discussion. 

 

So the short answer is, you have nothing

Just now, frank83628 said:

The world would be different place if they were 

 

Indeed, because it would mean, Trump didn't get a chance for a second term