If there is no life after death...

[James105]

8 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

In the end, you will know the truth, and it might be too late then to change your mind, but again, that's your deal.

 

Isn't that your problem as well though?  You only believe in just one more god than me and just like myself you don't believe in the other 17,999 invented by humans despite having no evidence that those other 17,999 gods do not exist.  I'm sure you would agree that it would be silly to believe that Thor or Zeus or Odin is real.. right?  

[novanova]

1 minute ago, Cameroni said:

 

No, near death experiences have been studied seriously by science, and the studies report repeated patterns of experience. Some would call that evidence.

 

 

No, a lot of the mystics that report very similar conclusions took no hallucinogenics at all. Yet they came to very similar conclusions. Witness for instance the writings of  Christian Mystic Meister Eckhart and the Chinese Buddhist figure Huineng, both wrote about

 

" a state in which one loses the consciousness of time and space, of values and concepts, of being and non-being - "In this state he loses his consciousness of time and space, and of the subject-object dichotomy. All names, concepts, definitions, value and moral judgments are driven out of his consciousness. He loses even his consciousness of being. Therefore, this state is called, "The Great Death."" "

 

https://onlinephilosophy.org/blog/seclusion-and-non-attachment-paths-peace-mind

 

There is no evidence eiither took any drugs. 

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6707356/

 

https://www.mdpi.com/2077-1444/15/5/537

 

https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/psychiatry/articles/10.3389/fpsyt.2023.1077311/full

 

https://psychedelics.berkeley.edu/religion-spirituality/

[fredwiggy]

1 minute ago, novanova said:

 

Yep, you are at it again - religion has made you unable to think clearly.

 

If a person is brainwashed as a small child, there is a good chance they CANNOT exercise free will regarding a particular topic. You are an example.

 

Suppose, when you were two, instead of silly nonsense about talking snakes and magic apples, you were told all about invisible dragons that fly above us. If that had happened, you would know be telling us about "free will" and "choose to believe".

 

In that case, as now, you would be unable to see that it is the dreadful hijacking of small children's' minds that allows religion to continue. It has no basis in reality.

 

Brainwashing small children is wrong. Don't do it. Don't condone it. Don't pretend it has anything to do with choice or free will.

Maybe you should spend some time reading up on child psychology, as it shows you have little to no understanding of how they think. If you don't have any children, that's further proof. I was, again, for the 6th time, taught about God when I was young, along with other things. I later grew up and made my own choices. I was raised a Catholic, and went to catholic school for 8 years, not being brainwashed, like others assume, but taught all about God. I later saw Catholicism for some things that weren't necessary, so I then called myself a Christian, following Jesus' guidance and word, again of my own free will. 

 

You keep thinking children are destined to be sheep, likely because again, you know very little of the child's mind and how they think. That's why it's always a good thing to be prepared when you discuss topics like this one. If you're only going by your own prejudices against God and his believers, you' re only going by personal opinions and not facts. And again, if you choose to not believe, that's your choice. Other people choose to believe because they want to, and not because they are sheep.

[Wrwest]

On 5/25/2025 at 9:00 AM, daveAustin said:

If you’re closed off, or of the typical boomer (😜) persuasion with all that rigid thinking, then nowhere. If you go a bit deeper you might pick up that ‘actual’ consciousness could be an intrinsic part of the universe—read; not brain—and it goes back into the ether or soul. The universe has already done what it set out to do, see itself and muse itself, where consciousness comes forward into the receiver (brain) and watches itself think etc. How do you tell the difference between consciousness and thought? The former observes the latter and knows that it is aware. Just thought on thought? You tell me. 

Guess we’ll all find out one day, but when it happens might be best to smile at it and let it come. Death is natural and if there is a purgatory, getting all stressed and bent out of shade because you’re gonna die possibly might put you there. 

Your posting "... goes back into the ether or soul." Sent me back to reflecting, was it not Plato who thought that we are all on a pilgrimage in the life and would rejoin the  Devine essence upon death?

[fredwiggy]

7 minutes ago, James105 said:

 

Isn't that your problem as well though?  You only believe in just one more god than me and just like myself you don't believe in the other 17,999 invented by humans despite having no evidence that those other 17,999 gods do not exist.  I'm sure you would agree that it would be silly to believe that Thor or Zeus or Odin is real.. right?  

 

7 minutes ago, James105 said:

 

Isn't that your problem as well though?  You only believe in just one more god than me and just like myself you don't believe in the other 17,999 invented by humans despite having no evidence that those other 17,999 gods do not exist.  I'm sure you would agree that it would be silly to believe that Thor or Zeus or Odin is real.. right?  

You actually believe there are 18,000 gods? Like I mentioned before, if there were indeed more than two gods, don't you think there would be evidence of this, a competition of sorts, to get as many people on your side as possible? One God goes by faith, which makes perfect sense, especially seeing he gave us the choise to believe or not.

[Cameroni]

10 minutes ago, novanova said:

https://psychedelics.berkeley.edu/religion-spirituality/

 

It is common knowledge that LSD and other drugs can induce experiences similar to mystical experiences.

 

However, I take it you then have no evidence that Meister Eckhart or Huineng took LSD or other drugs?

 

Okay.

[novanova]

1 minute ago, fredwiggy said:

Maybe you should spend some time reading up on child psychology, as it shows you have little to no understanding of how they think. If you don't have any children, that's further proof. I was, again, for the 6th time, taught about God when I was young, along with other things. I later grew up and made my own choices. I was raised a Catholic, and went to catholic school for 8 years, not being brainwashed, like others assume, but taught all about God. I later saw Catholicism for some things that weren't necessary, so I then called myself a Christian, following Jesus' guidance and word, again of my own free will. 

 

You keep thinking children are destined to be sheep, likely because again, you know very little of the child's mind and how they think. That's why it's always a good thing to be prepared when you discuss topics like this one. If you're only going by your own prejudices against God and his believers, you' re only going by personal opinions and not facts. And again, if you choose to not believe, that's your choice. Other people choose to believe because they want to, and not because they are sheep.

 

I was, again, for the 6th time, taught about God when I was young, along with other things. I later grew up and made my own choices. I was raised a Catholic, and went to catholic school for 8 years, not being brainwashed, like others assume, but taught all about God... so I then called myself a Christian, following Jesus' guidance and word, again of my own free will. 

 

Wow!! You really are unable to follow simple statements!

 

Once again, it is the brainwashing that deprived you of free will.

 

There is no case for magic apples and talking snakes and stars being made before the earth. You can waffle away to the contrary for all eternity, but you can never make a case for a god. You cannot see how silly your position is. That is what brainwashing small children does. You are a victim of this process.

 

 

[novanova]

1 minute ago, Cameroni said:

 

It is common knowledge that LSD and other drugs can induce experiences similar to mystical experiences.

 

However, I take it you then have no evidence that Meister Eckhart or Huineng took LSD or other drugs?

 

Okay.

 

There are billions of people in the world. Probability dictates that we will find outliers. Failing supporting evidence, leave the outliers to their fantasies.

 

Some people had mystical experiences. Therefore there is a god.

 

Hmmm....

[fredwiggy]

Just now, novanova said:

 

I was, again, for the 6th time, taught about God when I was young, along with other things. I later grew up and made my own choices. I was raised a Catholic, and went to catholic school for 8 years, not being brainwashed, like others assume, but taught all about God... so I then called myself a Christian, following Jesus' guidance and word, again of my own free will. 

 

Wow!! You really are unable to follow simple statements!

 

Once again, it is the brainwashing that deprived you of free will.

 

There is no case for magic apples and talking snakes and stars being made before the earth. You can waffle away to the contrary for all eternity, but you can never make a case for a god. You cannot see how silly your position is. That is what brainwashing small children does. You are a victim of this process.

 

 

And after all this time, you still aren't getting my point. You're too dense to see that people can make their own minds up. Everyone not under a dictatorship has free will, especially regarding "choosing" their beliefs. How old are you? It's not waffling (bad choice of word) believing in God, and sticking to your guns. You're doing the same thing, opposite of my thinking, with no proof there isn't a God. Do you not understand this?

[save the frogs]

Synopsis of The Tibetan Book of the Dead

 

 

[Hummin]

Just now, Cameroni said:

 

It is common knowledge that LSD and other drugs can induce experiences similar to mystical experiences.

 

However, I take it you then have no evidence that Meister Eckhart or Huineng took LSD or other drugs?

 

Okay.

Lack of oxygen also do give or can give som visions.

 

Did a few seriously rounds with Nitrous oxide with a group, and had great visions and experiences. Also Mexican marijuana back in the old days as well. Not sure they stained it with something, but out of the world experiences.

 

The brain chemistry is a universe itself, able to create anything when needed, or just for fun.

 

Extreme yoga with breathing exercises, as well, and what's actually surprised me most how you can push your body in to a state where everything is a high bliss. Once experienced it, it is like a drug, you need to do more to feel the same again. I understand why people are hooked on that kind of lifestyle, and of course everything else that comes with it. The Social aspect of it and the sex it can lead to.

[novanova]

Just now, fredwiggy said:

And after all this time, you still aren't getting my point. You're too dense to see that people can make their own minds up. Everyone not under a dictatorship has free will, especially regarding "choosing" their beliefs. How old are you? It's not waffling (bad choice of word) believing in God, and sticking to your guns. You're doing the same thing, opposite of my thinking, with no proof there isn't a God. Do you not understand this?

 

Double-WOW!!

 

Your gross errors:

 

- you keep mentioning "proof there isn't a god". I keep repeating - "evidence", not proof, and it is up to the asserter to provide supporting evidence; it is not up to others to do the work. As well, I told you that "proving a not" was debunked in 1930. Why do you keep making the same silly mistakes?

 

- you keep making the same mistake - thinking that you have "free will" and are "making your mind up", when you had your thinking processes scrambled when you were a small child. i repeat, if you had been told about invisible magic dragons at that age, that is what you would be going on about now. But of course, you had to ignore that.

 

- people who were brainwashed as small children are not "choosing their beliefs". That is what is truly evil about religion - targeting the defenceless. You are an example of this horrible process.

[fredwiggy]

13 minutes ago, novanova said:

 

Double-WOW!!

 

Your gross errors:

 

- you keep mentioning "proof there isn't a god". I keep repeating - "evidence", not proof, and it is up to the asserter to provide supporting evidence; it is not up to others to do the work. As well, I told you that "proving a not" was debunked in 1930. Why do you keep making the same silly mistakes?

 

- you keep making the same mistake - thinking that you have "free will" and are "making your mind up", when you had your thinking processes scrambled when you were a small child. i repeat, if you had been told about invisible magic dragons at that age, that is what you would be going on about now. But of course, you had to ignore that.

 

- people who were brainwashed as small children are not "choosing their beliefs". That is what is truly evil about religion - targeting the defenceless. You are an example of this horrible process.

It isn't up to me to prove anything. This isn't a competition. It's a belief system, personal, and with no explanation needed. You don't believe, your deal. I believe, my deal. Do you still not get this basic concept?

 

You assume I and others had our thinking process screwed up. I could assume the same thing about you, saying you were brainwashed into thinking there isn't any God. You chose for your reasons, I chose for mine. I'm not making any mistakes. You can't prove there isn't a God. You're again, too dense to understand when a child become an adult, they can look back at what they were taught and decide if it was right , wrong, or something in the middle. You assume people are sheep, but you have convinced me it's you that says baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.Your words,"...........if you had been told about invisible magic dragons at that age, that is what you would be going on about now. But of course, you had to ignore that".............  Are you that behind that you think people keep believing in Santa Claus and such and don't change their minds when they grow into adulthood? 

[Cameroni]

16 minutes ago, Hummin said:

Lack of oxygen also do give or can give som visions.

 

Did a few seriously rounds with Nitrous oxide with a group, and had great visions and experiences. Also Mexican marijuana back in the old days as well. Not sure they stained it with something, but out of the world experiences.

 

The brain chemistry is a universe itself, able to create anything when needed, or just for fun.

 

Extreme yoga with breathing exercises, as well, and what's actually surprised me most how you can push your body in to a state where everything is a high bliss. Once experienced it, it is like a drug, you need to do more to feel the same again. I understand why people are hooked on that kind of lifestyle, and of course everything else that comes with it. The Social aspect of it and the sex it can lead to.

 

Yes, I've also experienced this state of bilss during meditation.

 

Some say you can get it during running as well.

 

I don't mean the "bliss" part though. What I meant was the conclusion, in that many mystics, from different religions and countries, reported that they felt as one with the universe, that they were connected to it, and part of it, their consciousness was a part of it.

 

This is what I meant.

[James105]

35 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

 

You actually believe there are 18,000 gods? Like I mentioned before, if there were indeed more than two gods, don't you think there would be evidence of this, a competition of sorts, to get as many people on your side as possible? One God goes by faith, which makes perfect sense, especially seeing he gave us the choise to believe or not.

 

What hard evidence do you have that 18,000 gods (that humans have believed in throughout history) do not exist?   

[Lacessit]

2 hours ago, fredwiggy said:

There's a saying. Don't put words in other people's mouths. Again, no one is any better than anyone else here, no matter the amount of cash or status they have. How are the Muslims out breeding me? I'm not in any competition with them. And it doesn't matter what they think. That's just another, opinion.

There are 2.5 billion Christians, 2 billion Muslims. On current birth rates for both god versions, there will be more Muslims than Christians by 2050.

 

At that point, they will be the majority view you are espousing as being right.

 

Muslims regard Jesus as a holy person. They don't give him the status you do.

[fredwiggy]

Just now, James105 said:

 

What hard evidence do you have that 18,000 gods (that humans have believed in throughout history) do not exist?   

I again, do not need any evidence, but again, if there were more than just one or two, we would see evidence with they're competing. People have prayed to trees, statues, the ocean, sky and stars because everyone needs something to believe in.

[fredwiggy]

Just now, Lacessit said:

There are 2.5 billion Christians, 2 billion Muslims. On current birth rates for both god versions, there will be more Muslims than Christians by 2050.

 

At that point, they will be the majority view you are espousing as being right.

 

Muslims regard Jesus as a holy person. They don't give him the status you do.

But they believe in God. They look at Jesus the same was as Muhammad. A prophet.Jesus is the son of God. Quite different than any others.

[Lacessit]

1 minute ago, fredwiggy said:

I again, do not need any evidence, but again, if there were more than just one or two, we would see evidence with they're competing. People have prayed to trees, statues, the ocean, sky and stars because everyone needs something to believe in.

What is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. Hitchin's razor.

[ChrisKC]

1 hour ago, fredwiggy said:

Religion does not teach children to glorify death and suffering. Religion is misused by some, and that's why others take offense to it. Read Gods commandments. They aren't about violence. That you believe God doesn't exist is your opinion. Others have belief, and it shouldn't interfere with your life. Life is precious, all life, and we don't know what heaven is about. All the things that hurt here will not be there, as it wouldn't make sense.

You don't know me very well! I do NOT use opinion when talking religion - that is the prerogative of those who deny reality in favour of faith - which if you look it up does not define itself as truth! The superglue of religion is so sticky... oooh!

[fredwiggy]

1 minute ago, Lacessit said:

What is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. Hitchin's razor.

 

1 minute ago, Lacessit said:

What is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. Hitchin's razor.

Up to you.

[Lacessit]

1 minute ago, fredwiggy said:

But they believe in God. They look at Jesus the same was as Muhammad. A prophet.Jesus is the son of God. Quite different than any others.

They believe in Allah, just like Jews believe in Yahweh. What makes you think they are any better than Jupiter or Odin?

 

You are in complete denial of the fact you were indoctrinated as a child. To admit you could be wrong is a bridge too far, it would turn your world upside down.

[ChrisKC]

1 hour ago, Vaughan9 said:

I have no doubt that there is life after death. All religions say there is no death for the soul...the body is left behind.

NDEs, which are now well-documented and scientifically studied, confirm this...  There many NDE videos to listen to on YouTube... just check them out... they confirm my belief in the afterlife...

Near Death Experiences are accounts of those who were still alive (that means not dead) and nothing to do with life AFTER death, of which there are NO accounts

[novanova]

12 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

It isn't up to me to prove anything. This isn't a competition. It's a belief system, personal, and with no explanation needed. You don't believe, your deal. I believe, my deal. Do you still not get this basic concept?

 

You assume I and others had our thinking process screwed up. I could assume the same thing about you, saying you were brainwashed into thinking there isn't any God. You chose for your reasons, I chose for mine. I'm not making any mistakes. You can't prove there isn't a God. You're again, too dense to understand when a child become an adult, they can look back at what they were taught and decide if it was right , wrong, or something in the middle. You assume people are sheep, but you have convinced me it's you that says baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.Your words,"...........if you had been told about invisible magic dragons at that age, that is what you would be going on about now. But of course, you had to ignore that".............  Are you that behind that you think people keep believing in Santa Claus and such and don't change their minds when they grow into adulthood? 

 

Even for a christian, you make an enormous number of errors in thinking.

 

Over and over again you talk about "proving there isn't a god".  Over and over again, I tell you that "disproving a negative" was dealt with in 1930 (Karl Popper). Why do you keep making the same blunder?

 

As well, you have a ridiculous notion of what constitutes a valid belief. If the topic is important, we require supporting evidence. Einstein was ridiculed by the uneducated in 1905... he asserted that time could move at varying rates for different observers! How ridiculous! But, Einstein's assertions tested, measured and verified around the world. People changed their minds based upon an evaluation of facts.

 

There are no facts to evaluate, regarding the existence of gods. You are making another blunder - false equivalence. Belief in the existence of gods requires supporting evidence, not an empty assertion of a belief. A fact-free belief is worthless.

 

You assume I and others had our thinking process screwed up.

 

Damn right. You can't even get the basics of clear thinking correct. You can't afford to - the absurdity of your position would be beyond obvious. You were told some bull<deleted> when you were small, and you lack the intellectual skills to discard it and move on. Preying on small children, and ruining their intellectual skills, is criminal, You are a victim of this process.

 

[Hummin]

18 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

 

Yes, I've also experienced this state of bilss during meditation.

 

Some say you can get it during running as well.

 

I don't mean the "bliss" part though. What I meant was the conclusion, in that many mystics, from different religions and countries, reported that they felt as one with the universe, that they were connected to it, and part of it, their consciousness was a part of it.

 

This is what I meant.

I understand, what my view of it, we can be manipulated by someone be it a person or group dynamics, or just self manipulation. 

 

During crises many had special views and experiences, who actually in a miraculous way dragged them out of their misery.

 

Also part of a national team, I had a team building experience with a psycholog, who during a group meditation, took us places within our self. Very strong experience, and if they abuse these techniques for religious purposes, I understand people meet Jesus and see the light. 

[fredwiggy]

1 minute ago, Lacessit said:

They believe in Allah, just like Jews believe in Yahweh. What makes you think they are any better than Jupiter or Odin?

 

You are in complete denial of the fact you were indoctrinated as a child. To admit you could be wrong is a bridge too far, it would turn your world upside down.

Keep those assumptions going. You're slowly catching up to a few others here who know nothing about others here, yet think they do. 

 

Again, read this a few times so you can comprehend it, People can be brainwashed, forced, taught, lectured and promised the world so they learn, ,most anything in childhood, especially by their parents, who they learn to trust, even if they're wrong in their teachings, but when you get to be an, wait for it, adult, you can look back and using analytical thinking, see if what you learned was fact, fiction, or possibly just opinions, so you look elsewhere to back up those teachings, and then, again, make up your own mind. 

 

Brainwashing, what you call it, doesn't last forever unless you're very slow, or you have no access to another side, which most worldwide now do, besides some tribes in South America, Africa and North Sentinel Island. 

 

And another thing you seem to be missing. It's also YOU that could have been brainwashed, by your non believing (maybe) parents, that God doesn't exist. To admit you could be wrong is a bridge too far, it would turn your world upside down.

[Lacessit]

14 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

I again, do not need any evidence, but again, if there were more than just one or two, we would see evidence with they're competing. People have prayed to trees, statues, the ocean, sky and stars because everyone needs something to believe in.

If I believe in anything, it is science. Which is subject to rigorous rules of evidence, and testing of hypotheses to destruction.

 

It's why science has always sat uncomfortably with religion, because faith discards any pretense of evidence and testing.

[BritManToo]

2 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

If I believe in anything, it is science. Which is subject to rigorous rules of evidence, and testing of hypotheses to destruction.

 

It's why science has always sat uncomfortably with religion, because faith discards any pretense of evidence and testing.

Apart from vaccines and climate change which are belief based.

[fredwiggy]

5 minutes ago, novanova said:

 

Even for a christian, you make an enormous number of errors in thinking.

 

Over and over again you talk about "proving there isn't a god".  Over and over again, I tell you that "disproving a negative" was dealt with in 1930 (Karl Popper). Why do you keep making the same blunder?

 

As well, you have a ridiculous notion of what constitutes a valid belief. If the topic is important, we require supporting evidence. Einstein was ridiculed by the uneducated in 1905... he asserted that time could move at varying rates for different observers! How ridiculous! But, Einstein's assertions tested, measured and verified around the world. People changed their minds based upon an evaluation of facts.

 

There are no facts to evaluate, regarding the existence of gods. You are making another blunder - false equivalence. Belief in the existence of gods requires supporting evidence, not an empty assertion of a belief. A fact-free belief is worthless.

 

You assume I and others had our thinking process screwed up.

 

Damn right. You can't even get the basics of clear thinking correct. You can't afford to - the absurdity of your position would be beyond obvious. You were told some bull<deleted> when you were small, and you lack the intellectual skills to discard it and move on. Preying on small children, and ruining their intellectual skills, is criminal, You are a victim of this process.

 

I haven't made any errors but you keep coming back, like a certain other AN member, ASSUMING....................................... YOU require supporting evidence and  we as believers go by faith. Read the definition if it escapes you. We don't need evidence, although it would be nice to see God before we die................................. Read those last three lines over and over, because you're too dense to understand what I've been saying all along. 

 

I could also say you were told some BS as a child, which led you to believe God doesn't exist. Assuming in almost every line of your replies about what I know. You have your opinions, and they mean nothing. Prove God doesn't exist, or stop your nonsense, because it's only you and others that can't fathom a God that isn't getting why we believe. We don't need evidence. Capiche?

[Lacessit]

2 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

Keep those assumptions going. You're slowly catching up to a few others here who know nothing about others here, yet think they do. 

 

Again, read this a few times so you can comprehend it, People can be brainwashed, forced, taught, lectured and promised the world so they learn, ,most anything in childhood, especially by their parents, who they learn to trust, even if they're wrong in their teachings, but when you get to be an, wait for it, adult, you can look back and using analytical thinking, see if what you learned was fact, fiction, or possibly just opinions, so you look elsewhere to back up those teachings, and then, again, make up your own mind. 

 

Brainwashing, what you call it, doesn't last forever unless you're very slow, or you have no access to another side, which most worldwide now do, besides some tribes in South America, Africa and North Sentinel Island. 

 

And another thing you seem to be missing. It's also YOU that could have been brainwashed, by your non believing (maybe) parents, that God doesn't exist. To admit you could be wrong is a bridge too far, it would turn your world upside down.

You have reached the stage of repeating the same mantra over pages of this thread. Propaganda does not become more valid by repetition.

 

I have noted you refuse to address the question of original sin, a concept unique to Christianity, which makes as much sense as an ashtray on a motorbike. No doubt it was drummed into you in Catholic school, along with the Virgin Mary.

 

It does illustrate your dishonesty.