Not good, Elon

[Lacessit]

No wonder Trump wants to get rid of his Tesla......

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-06-11/tesla-phantom-braking-australia-class-action-lawsuit/105395490

[JBChiangRai]

Tesla went down a blind alley with vision based automation.  LIDAR is the only technology that works effectively.  I suspect governments will mandate LIDAR before certifying self-driving technology.

 

I remember reading Elon had a spat with the owner of the LIDAR technology and made his vision based approach on emotion.  Emotion will be his downfall.

[save the frogs]

11 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

Emotion will be his downfall.

 

yeah, downfall. what a joke.

he will be the first trillionaire on the planet soon. 

everyone is hoping for people's downfalls.

 

[Lacessit]

14 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

 

yeah, downfall. what a joke.

he will be the first trillionaire on the planet soon. 

everyone is hoping for people's downfalls.

 

When you are that rich, losing a billion here or there becomes a minor inconvenience.

[jas007]

39 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Tesla went down a blind alley with vision based automation.  LIDAR is the only technology that works effectively.  I suspect governments will mandate LIDAR before certifying self-driving technology.

 

I remember reading Elon had a spat with the owner of the LIDAR technology and made his vision based approach on emotion.  Emotion will be his downfall.

Sounds like wishful thinking or someone who didn't have the foresight to buy some Tesla stock.  

 

Musk likes vision based autonomous driving for good reason.  Robtaxis officially go live in Austin, TX in about 10 days, although they've already been spotted on the road, driving around. 

[JBChiangRai]

1 hour ago, jas007 said:

Sounds like wishful thinking or someone who didn't have the foresight to buy some Tesla stock.  

 

Musk likes vision based autonomous driving for good reason.  Robtaxis officially go live in Austin, TX in about 10 days, although they've already been spotted on the road, driving around. 

 

Robotaxis are years behind Waymo., let's see what happens when it comes to certification across the world. I predict Tesla will revert back to LIDAR

[jas007]

13 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

Robotaxis are years behind Waymo., let's see what happens when it comes to certification across the world. I predict Tesla will revert back to LIDAR

Well, you could always buy some stock in Alphabet (Google).  You'd probably do OK, even though Waymo will eventually end up n the dustbin of history.  

 

Robotaxis use a vision based approach for good reason, not the least of which is its cost effectiveness. And in business, efficiency is often paramount. Take the BetaMax vs. VHS situation, for example.  Everyone agrees that the BetaMax was the superior product, technologically.  But in the end, it went by the wayside because VHS was more widely available and cost less.

 

Elon's system can be easily leased out to other companies, like Uber.  The cost to Uber would be minimal compared to the cost of duplicating Waymo's technology.  In in today's business environment, you know what that means.  Sharholders want to see results, and results are reported every quarter. 

 

I could go on, but I think you'll soon find out that Waymo is going nowhere. 

[JBChiangRai]

What you said is irrelevant when it comes to safety.

 

Nobody says vision is superior to LIDAR.  It's a fact LIDAR is superior and therefore safer.

 

Elon is wrong.

 

Safety is everything.  

 

 

[jas007]

46 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

What you said is irrelevant when it comes to safety.

 

Nobody says vision is superior to LIDAR.  It's a fact LIDAR is superior and therefore safer.

 

Elon is wrong.

 

Safety is everything.  

 

 

You may think safety is everything, but, even if LIDAR is safer right now, so what?  Because of the way Elon's software will develop and spread exponentially, that supposed safety lead could vanish. 

 

First, you do realize that, in certain situations, the vision based system is superior, right?  LIDAR sometimes has trouble operating in certain weather conditions.  Also, LIDAR cannot read road signs.  That's important, don't you think?  Nor does LIDAR have the ability to interpret visual cues, as humans do.  Another negative.

 

More importantly, though, is edge computing.  Do you know what that is and why it will be one of the primary factors in sidelining Waymo? The AI is onboard. Built into the car's computer system.  The car can react instantly without the latency associated with a reliance on the cloud.  Now couple that advantage with the fact that the Robotaxi software can be leased more economically. The result? Each Robotaxi or car operating on Elon's software will become part of an entire fleet of vehicles belonging to a distributed network, the size and computing capacity of which will increase exponentially as more cars are added to the fleet. 

 

Simply put, the edge based computing will facilitate a wider, faster rollout.  By the time Waymo can react to the volume of new clients Elon will obtain, Waymo cars will all be on their way to the junkyard. 

[still kicking]

18 hours ago, Lacessit said:

No wonder Trump wants to get rid of his Tesla......

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-06-11/tesla-phantom-braking-australia-class-action-lawsuit/105395490

Take him to court

[JBChiangRai]

4 hours ago, jas007 said:

You may think safety is everything, but, even if LIDAR is safer right now, so what?  Because of the way Elon's software will develop and spread exponentially, that supposed safety lead could vanish. 

 

First, you do realize that, in certain situations, the vision based system is superior, right?  LIDAR sometimes has trouble operating in certain weather conditions.  Also, LIDAR cannot read road signs.  That's important, don't you think?  Nor does LIDAR have the ability to interpret visual cues, as humans do.  Another negative.

 

More importantly, though, is edge computing.  Do you know what that is and why it will be one of the primary factors in sidelining Waymo? The AI is onboard. Built into the car's computer system.  The car can react instantly without the latency associated with a reliance on the cloud.  Now couple that advantage with the fact that the Robotaxi software can be leased more economically. The result? Each Robotaxi or car operating on Elon's software will become part of an entire fleet of vehicles belonging to a distributed network, the size and computing capacity of which will increase exponentially as more cars are added to the fleet. 

 

Simply put, the edge based computing will facilitate a wider, faster rollout.  By the time Waymo can react to the volume of new clients Elon will obtain, Waymo cars will all be on their way to the junkyard. 

Other manufacturers and Waymo don’t only use LIDAR, they use cameras too. 

 

Cameras don’t cope well with rain and fog, nighttime is also a problem, but they do read road signs.

 

A camera only approach can never match a camera and LIDAR approach.  
 

I do understand edge computing and AI, my entire career was in IT. Waymo for example also has AI on board built into the car.  Your knowledge it not being there is flawed.

 

In my opinion, Tesla have gone down a blind alley removing LIDAR. It will only take one fatal accident that could’ve been avoided using LIDAR to make LIDAR a mandatory requirement for Level 5 automation certification.

 

At the time Tesla were using it the cost was around $2,100 per car, it’s now a fraction of that.

[Lacessit]

5 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Other manufacturers and Waymo don’t only use LIDAR, they use cameras too. 

 

Cameras don’t cope well with rain and fog, nighttime is also a problem, but they do read road signs.

 

A camera only approach can never match a camera and LIDAR approach.  
 

I do understand edge computing and AI, my entire career was in IT. Waymo for example also has AI on board built into the car.  Your knowledge it not being there is flawed.

 

In my opinion, Tesla have gone down a blind alley removing LIDAR. It will only take one fatal accident that could’ve been avoided using LIDAR to make LIDAR a mandatory requirement for Level 5 automation certification.

 

At the time Tesla were using it the cost was around $2,100 per car, it’s now a fraction of that.

Do any of the engineering geniuses at Tesla explain what causes phantom braking?

 

That should be a complete turnoff for prospective customers.

[jas007]

8 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Other manufacturers and Waymo don’t only use LIDAR, they use cameras too. 

 

Cameras don’t cope well with rain and fog, nighttime is also a problem, but they do read road signs.

 

A camera only approach can never match a camera and LIDAR approach.  
 

I do understand edge computing and AI, my entire career was in IT. Waymo for example also has AI on board built into the car.  Your knowledge it not being there is flawed.

 

In my opinion, Tesla have gone down a blind alley removing LIDAR. It will only take one fatal accident that could’ve been avoided using LIDAR to make LIDAR a mandatory requirement for Level 5 automation certification.

 

At the time Tesla were using it the cost was around $2,100 per car, it’s now a fraction of that.

I guess we wait and see.  It shouldn't take long to sort itself out. 

[jas007]

1 hour ago, JBChiangRai said:

Other manufacturers and Waymo don’t only use LIDAR, they use cameras too. 

 

Cameras don’t cope well with rain and fog, nighttime is also a problem, but they do read road signs.

 

A camera only approach can never match a camera and LIDAR approach.  
 

I do understand edge computing and AI, my entire career was in IT. Waymo for example also has AI on board built into the car.  Your knowledge it not being there is flawed.

 

In my opinion, Tesla have gone down a blind alley removing LIDAR. It will only take one fatal accident that could’ve been avoided using LIDAR to make LIDAR a mandatory requirement for Level 5 automation certification.

 

At the time Tesla were using it the cost was around $2,100 per car, it’s now a fraction of that.

Out of curiosity, I looked up the car crash frequency in the USA, 94% of which they figure is caused by human error.  It works out to about 13.3 crashes per minute caused by human negligence.  And yet they still give people drivers licenses and they still allow traffic on the roads.

 

My point is that there is no mode of transportation that is 100% safe. It that's the standard autonomous vehicles, then there will never be autonomous vehicles.  And that's not going to happen. It's progress, and as things move forward, so will the safety improve. 

 

It's that way with every consumer product.  Lawn mowers, steak knives, airplanes rides, pharmaceutical products (assuming there's informed consent).   Society weighs the risks vs benefits. And in the vast majority of cases, including inherently dangerous products, the benefits outweigh the risks.  And so people ride planes, people buy lawn mowers, people take needed medications, people undergo surgery and the implantation of medical devices. That's life.  

 

 

[JBChiangRai]

I agree with you.  People die every day but we are outraged when a piece of software kills people, for example, MCAS from Boeing. 
 

Tesla’s FSD maybe orders of magnitude better than humans, but it will only take one fatality that could’ve been saved by LIDAR to change everything

[Zaphod Priest]

On 6/11/2025 at 6:08 PM, Lacessit said:

No wonder Trump wants to get rid of his Tesla......

 

I was so looking forward to seeing a tank run over Trump's Tesla at the Trump birthday parade on Saturday.  Now it looks like it's going to be rained off.  Pity.

[newbee2022]

On 6/11/2025 at 6:08 PM, Lacessit said:

No wonder Trump wants to get rid of his Tesla......

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-06-11/tesla-phantom-braking-australia-class-action-lawsuit/105395490

Something to adjust probably. The Genius will fix it

[jas007]

11 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

I agree with you.  People die every day but we are outraged when a piece of software kills people, for example, MCAS from Boeing. 
 

Tesla’s FSD maybe orders of magnitude better than humans, but it will only take one fatality that could’ve been saved by LIDAR to change everything

I think you're overly attached to LIDAR and you're engaged in wishful thinking. 

 

As Elon's Robotaxi fleet expands, so will its database. And as that happens, safety will improve.  Of course, it's already safer than human drivers. One death?  They'll make whatever adjustments they deem necessary and move on.  Progress won't be stopped because of a fluke accident.  

 

How many people were killed in the early days of the automobile? Or the early days of aviation?  Or in the early days of the space program?  Accidents happen.  It's part of growth.  No progress happens without risk. 

[spidermike007]

Musk is still the richest man in the world by a long shot, and even if he lost $100 billion, it really wouldn't mean that much. Trump likely looks at his wealth with a rather severe sense of envy. 

[JBChiangRai]

What you say is true, but I see LIDAR as being like seat belts.  I do think that ultimately legislation will mandate LIDAR.

 

Elon does make some stupid decisions.  The Cybertruck cannot be sold in the EU or UK because of it's sharp angles and the front is not pedestrian friendly.

 

Incidentally, on the original subject of class action lawsuits, there is one in the UK, people ordered their cars with FSD and 5 years later it still hadn't been delivered.  Most people in the UK keep their cars only 3 years.

[wavodavo]

On 6/11/2025 at 9:08 PM, Lacessit said:

No wonder Trump wants to get rid of his Tesla......

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-06-11/tesla-phantom-braking-australia-class-action-lawsuit/105395490

They are onlly a heap of sh@t anyway.

[Thingamabob]

11 minutes ago, wavodavo said:

They are onlly a heap of sh@t anyway.

I rode in one last week in Bangkok. Definitely not a heap of sh@t.

[Dan O]

On 6/12/2025 at 8:43 AM, jas007 said:

Sounds like wishful thinking or someone who didn't have the foresight to buy some Tesla stock.  

 

Musk likes vision based autonomous driving for good reason.  Robtaxis officially go live in Austin, TX in about 10 days, although they've already been spotted on the road, driving around. 

Yeah with people stationed in a warehouse to oversee and correct operation of the cars.  Not a properly designed demonstration and unveiling although the extra layer of safety may help with the demo. 

[jas007]

4 minutes ago, Dan O said:

Yeah with people stationed in a warehouse to oversee and correct operation of the cars.  Not a properly designed demonstration and unveiling although the extra layer of safety may help with the demo. 

I don't know about people overseeing operations, but I do think the technology will roll out and spread exponentially. There's lots of big money betting on that happening. And the progression is not linear.  We're probably at or very near an inflection point, not only for Robotaxis, but for all things in the AI universe.  

[josephbloggs]

54 minutes ago, Thingamabob said:

I rode in one last week in Bangkok. Definitely not a heap of sh@t.

They are compared to the alternatives at a similar price point. I've ridden in loads over the years (probably 30-40 Uber rides in Dubai for example) and they feel cheap and flimsy inside.

[Dan O]

1 hour ago, jas007 said:

I don't know about people overseeing operations, but I do think the technology will roll out and spread exponentially. There's lots of big money betting on that happening. And the progression is not linear.  We're probably at or very near an inflection point, not only for Robotaxis, but for all things in the AI universe.  

The rollout trial was originally only for selected media and to ensure no issues staff where to be stationed in an adjacent warehouse to manually oversee and correct any errors during the trial. 

 

As for AI there are certainly applications it will handle very well and others not so much. It all depends on the data set used as reference source. The open internet isn't applicable or effective for AI as there is too much misinformation 

[Purdey]

Billionaires rarely have their wealth in cash. Usually, their wealth is in investments, particularly shareholding. It might be possible for Musk to lose a lot if his businesses go down.

[jas007]

11 minutes ago, Dan O said:

The rollout trial was originally only for selected media and to ensure no issues staff where to be stationed in an adjacent warehouse to manually oversee and correct any errors during the trial. 

 

As for AI there are certainly applications it will handle very well and others not so much. It all depends on the data set used as reference source. The open internet isn't applicable or effective for AI as there is too much misinformation 

For sure, there's a lot of nonsense on the Internet, and so that's sometimes what comes back from an AI agent, depending. Those agents work better for some tasks than for others.  In a sense, though, AI agents are just tools.  Real AI is something else and is a few yers off, perhaps. 

 

I'm not worried about it. It's coming and will be a bigger disruption than many people seem to think. That's a good thing, if you're an investor and can see through the nonsense.   

[Yagoda]

On 6/12/2025 at 10:59 AM, JBChiangRai said:

Safety is everything.  

Not in SE Asia

[Dan O]

9 minutes ago, jas007 said:

For sure, there's a lot of nonsense on the Internet, and so that's sometimes what comes back from an AI agent, depending. Those agents work better for some tasks than for others.  In a sense, though, AI agents are just tools.  Real AI is something else and is a few yers off, perhaps. 

 

I'm not worried about it. It's coming and will be a bigger disruption than many people seem to think. That's a good thing, if you're an investor and can see through the nonsense.   

I agree.  For research project in medical, analysis,  science electronics, mathematics  etc it will be an incredible tool.  For the average everyday use without a closed or control data set to utilize the results produced could be highly suspect.