(Tax paranoia 2025) Swift transfer or atm withdraw?

[sanook 1]

Is it recomended to use a foreign atm card for withdraws rather than Swift transfers in 2025 if you here moore than 180 days a year? 

[gargamon]

Better to use a foreign credit card (one with no foreign transaction fee) for as much as you can and only bring in funds when necessary. 

[gamb00ler]

7 minutes ago, gargamon said:

Better to use a foreign credit card (one with no foreign transaction fee) for as much as you can and only bring in funds when necessary. 

I think you meant debit card.... not credit card.  The OP mentioned ATM card which is usually not a credit card.

[bamnutsak]

Probably no difference, both methods COULD be considered as "remitted funds/income".

 

That said if the funds were "earned" prior to 2024, or (maybe, as "proposed") earned in 2025 and remitted in 2025 or 2026, they might be exempt.

 

If you need the funds transfer them, if you're worried about tax implication, spend fewer than 180 days in Thailand.

 

 

[sanook 1]

1 hour ago, gamb00ler said:

I think you meant debit card.... not credit card.  The OP mentioned ATM card which is usually not a credit card.

Yes true,debit card.

[gargamon]

2 hours ago, gamb00ler said:

I think you meant debit card.... not credit card.  The OP mentioned ATM card which is usually not a credit card.

Nope. I meant credit card. Plus you can get a percent or two back from the credit card co. And you're protected much more than using an ATM card. Clearly doesn't work for people that want to use cash for everything though. 

[gamb00ler]

8 minutes ago, gargamon said:

Nope. I meant credit card. Plus you can get a percent or two back from the credit card co. And you're protected much more than using an ATM card. Clearly doesn't work for people that want to use cash for everything though. 

I haven’t read so many examples of the terms and conditions regarding credit card use but those I have read don’t give any cash back on cash advances.  Instead they charge an immediate fee for the service and also a high ongoing interest rate.  I don’t research the credit cards with a high annual fee so perhaps one of those will offer better terms for cash advances.

[bamnutsak]

Some people have been adamant that credit card use could also be viewed as "remitted funds".

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1322926-remit-vs-credit-card-payment-under-new-tax-rules/

 

 

[gargamon]

5 minutes ago, gamb00ler said:

I haven’t read so many examples of the terms and conditions regarding credit card use but those I have read don’t give any cash back on cash advances.  Instead they charge an immediate fee for the service and also a high ongoing interest rate.  I don’t research the credit cards with a high annual fee so perhaps one of those will offer better terms for cash advances.

I wasn't saying to use your foreign credit card for cash advances. I use the CC everywhere I can including groceries, liquor, shopee. etc. My reading of the OP is that he was trying to minimize tax liability. This is the best way I've come up with so far.

[gargamon]

10 minutes ago, bamnutsak said:

Some people have been adamant that credit card use could also be viewed as "remitted funds".

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1322926-remit-vs-credit-card-payment-under-new-tax-rules/

 

 

Good luck to them trying to track it.

[topt]

23 minutes ago, bamnutsak said:

Some people have been adamant that credit card use could also be viewed as "remitted funds".

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1322926-remit-vs-credit-card-payment-under-new-tax-rules/

 

 

In theory it should be otherwise it leaves a 'gaping' loophole.......In the UK for non-doms it is covered under HMRC guidance as taxable for example.

 

12 minutes ago, gargamon said:

Good luck to them trying to track it.

I don't disagree with that.

The only issue potentially would arise if audited and asked to prove how you lived and bought stuff but unless other reasons for being targeted it seems very unlikely.

[JimGant]

Debit/ATM pulls with your foreign cards are sucking cash from your home country financial account. This account is probably a co-mingle of funds -- some assessable if remitted; some not. How to differentiate what's what is a problem, tho' using FIFO might help, if your financial acct has some pre 2024 funds in it. Same problem with a SWIFT or WISE transfer.

 

Now, say you want to buy a car in Thailand, so you borrow the money from your home country bank, and then remit it to Thailand. Would this remittance be taxable income? Of course not -- and such self - assessment would be included in doing my Thai taxes.

 

So, you use your foreign credit card to pay for a meal in a Thai restaurant. Now, this money is not a direct suck from you home country financial account; it's a loan from your credit card bank, same as that loan I took out to buy a car in Thailand. So, why would I treat this cash flow as remitted income to Thailand? Of course, I wouldn't.

 

Now, in that referenced link above, from bamnutsak -- here's what Mike Lister said:

Quote

Regardless, using a foreign credit card in Thailand to make payments here, is still considered to be remitted funds.

 

Yes, remitted funds. But NOT remitted assessable income, which is the point he was trying to drive home. Fortunately, Mike Lister and his bad advice have left this forum. 

[gargamon]

1 hour ago, JimGant said:

Fortunately, Mike Lister and his bad advice have left this forum. 

Probably just changed his handle, like most of the other irritants do.

[Millian]

7 hours ago, sanook 1 said:

Is it recomended to use a foreign atm card for withdraws rather than Swift transfers in 2025 if you here moore than 180 days a year? 

Both technically traceable. I'd assume bank transfers are traced more easily, as it's going into a Thai Bank account.  For that reason I'm mostly going the ATM route .

[gearbox]

12 minutes ago, Millian said:

Both technically traceable. I'd assume bank transfers are traced more easily, as it's going into a Thai Bank account.  For that reason I'm mostly going the ATM route .

The ATM withdrawals with a foreign card are not traceable by any institution except the bank which issued the card. The debit cards don't have enough information for the transaction to be attributable to a specific person.

[Millian]

Interesting.

I did a bit of digging and found this doc: https://www.fatf-gafi.org/content/dam/fatf-gafi/public-consultation/R.16 and EM - Public consultation February 2025.docx.coredownload.inline.docx

It suggests that currently the information passed to the foreign ATM operator is
 

1. Card number – This is the primary identifier passed during the ATM transaction.

2. Withdrawal amount

3. Date/time/location of withdrawal

4. ATM terminal ID

 

and its proposing new rules so that more info is passed:

• Card number must accompany the transaction.

• Cardholder name must be sent to the ATM/acquiring FI within 24 hours.

• Optional (in consultation): Address, DOB, and legal identifiers must be available on request

 

Wonder if the new regs have been passed yet?

\\

[Millian]

Found this:

https://www.fatf-gafi.org/en/publications/Fatfgeneral/outcomes-FATF-MONEYVAL-plenary-june-2025.html

These new regs were formally published yesterday and countries have till 2030 to comply.

So for now, it's very unlikely Thailand passes any identification information from atm withdrawals with foreign cards.

[Lacessit]

Who has had their retirement extension refused because they do not have a Thai tax ID?

 

Who has had transferred funds taxed by a Thai bank, and handed over to the Thai Revenue Department?

 

Who has been told by the TRD they do not need a Thai tax ID?

[gearbox]

41 minutes ago, Millian said:

Found this:

https://www.fatf-gafi.org/en/publications/Fatfgeneral/outcomes-FATF-MONEYVAL-plenary-june-2025.html

These new regs were formally published yesterday and countries have till 2030 to comply.

So for now, it's very unlikely Thailand passes any identification information from atm withdrawals with foreign cards.

Most of the fatf members do a process called "entity resolution". They have to legally attribute a transaction to a unique person. As a starter they would need your name, address and DOB - highly unlikely that 2 people with the same name and DOB would live in the same address. When they don't have all the required info they may try to triage the data, taking into account extra information...could be a passport number or a driving licence. 

 

For international bank wire transfers the banks are required to include the information, so the wire transfers are pretty much always traceable at the sending and receiving points. Agencies as AUSTRAC have vast databases with current and previous international bank transfers. However no ATM withdrawals data. The ATM withdrawals info can only be obtained from your bank by the tax and law enforcement agencies in your country if there is ongoing audit or investigations.

[Moonlover]

I think the operative word in title of this thread is paranoia!