Overstay, Police Involved!

[CRUNCHER]

Argentina does not detain visa overstayers. At least western tourist types and I am certain about that. I am sure there are others.

I really do believe Thailand is over zealous in the enforcement of these matters. 3 month address reports in person? Excessive. I don't why they are so over zealous but my theory is it is a symptom of xenophobia.

Yes! They are for real. No doubt about it. Beware and do all you can to avoid the sorry fate of this poor schlub,

I never said don't respect the rules and don't respect the total power they have. But I am saying, kicking a poor guy when he is down for such a minor thing is very unseemly.

I don't like to see people in trouble, but quite frankly some people ask for it. The moral is "when in Rome do as the Thais do". Overstay in Argentina you might be OK, but anyone who has been in Thailand 5 minutes konows how seriously such things are taken here. If you can't do the time don't do the crime. Simple as that.

[Maestro]

So he could potentially go to prison for 2 years for a visa overstay?

There was a post recently about a man who had overstayed for months or years, got caught by the police (still had his passport), the court fined him only 15,000 Baht and no imprisonment. Of course, after deportation he was free to re-enter Thailand any time he wished.

Once the case is in the hands of the court, the summary fine of 500 Baht per day, maximum 20,000 Baht no longer applies. It is all at the discretion of the judge, and he is limited only by the provisions, ie limits, of the law. Generally, I guess, the judge would be inclined to impose imprisonment only if the accused were unable or unwilling to pay the fine.

Another, unofficial option, I believe, is to make arrangements with the police, but promptly after the arrest, for the police not to file charges, then leave the country immediately. Free to re-enter as desired. May turn out to be costlier than the legal maximum fine, though.

--

Maestro

[sjaak327]

^

That might work, but as you say, it will be more expensive, and timing is certainly an issue, best taking that route immidiately after getting arrested.

[otton]

A guaranteed free ticket home ? If this was the usual way/rule in civilized countries surely the local tax payers would go up in arms......

You are very ill-informed, the major Western countries are executing each year several tens of thousands of expulsion orders and it's all on the local tax payers' money.

Why are the detention centers in Australia,Germany, etc full to the brink ?

Unlike the Thai IDC, you won't find 1 day overstayers there, you will find mainly illegal immigrants and other illegals who have committed crimes. Because of the huge financial and bureaucratic strain those two latter classes of people are already putting on the administrations, overstayers are just handed expulsion orders and told to leave. Very rarely thier case is followed on, unless they commit other violations of the law.

I am not sure they are much nicer experience than a few days in a Thai police cell until you cna cough up your ticket and overstay fees

So do tell what will be of him if he hasn't the money to pay for his ticket home...

[otton]

Most civilized countries detain overstayers sure, but usually with the goal of deporting them as soon as possible, not letting them rot in jail.

Yes, that's the huge difference between more civilized countries and Thailand. The former aren't trying to extract fines from overstayers by detaining them until they pay and, most importanly, they don't impose jail-term penalties (up to 2 years in Thailand) on them.

[tropo]

Of course, after deportation he was free to re-enter Thailand any time he wished.

--

Maestro

Of course?

Wouldn't that indicate that in actual fact the system is quite lenient in Thailand. It would seem from reports I've read on here than once you've been sent home there is no problem coming back no matter how long the overstays were.

[Krub]

Overstayers are making it more difficult for all of us wanting to stay legal.

I figured someone would say that.

Let us BLAME/condemn the "bad" farang and cheerlead the Thai crackdown policies in all their spectacular fury because overstayers (or fill in the blank for whatever farangs you like to bash) are the cause of all the hassles, crackdowns, insecurity etc. that we law abiders have in Thailand.

I do not believe that for one second. It is simplistic, sloppy thinking. Granted it is the only thing we can control (farang behavior) but the reality is we are not in control of anything the Thai authorities choose to do. They will do what they do. To actually believe that you know what the reasons are or think that your good farang behavior will make any difference at all in policy and enforcement is laughable folly. You think if you cheerlead them they will give you a lollipop or something? Maybe a donut.

My simplistic and sloppy thinking to stay leagal and to try as much as possible that we all follow the rules will help all live in a better society.

The rules are not difficult to follow.

If he was on overstay AND without a passport for 3 months, what are the authorities to do ? A pat on the back a smile a lollipop and send him on his way ? You would like to live in anarchy ? Me no thanks

I never said anything about anarchy or the pat on the back.

I did say and do believe the enforcement is very harsh here.

The sloppy thinking I am talking about is the common assumption of cause and effect that you voiced and I challenge: increase in overstayers (fill in the blank with your pet farang foul) equals increase in crackdowns. Where is the evidence for that?

Gut feeling tells me that if there are a lot of overstayers, abuse of the rules, the rules will be reviewed and/or additional tricter documentation will be required.

This is not only in Thailand but we see that in our Embassies with visa screening also.

I do agree with you that IF 2 years jail is given for an overstay it is not reasonable

Edited August 14, 2007 by Krub

[Krub]

So do tell what will be of him if he hasn't the money to pay for his ticket home...

So you would like the Thai government to pay a ticket home to all the overstayers they find ?

Maybe accomodate them in the local hotel and meal vouchers while waiting for the reservations to be made ?

[tropo]

So do tell what will be of him if he hasn't the money to pay for his ticket home...

So you would like the Thai government to pay a ticket home to all the overstayers they find ?

I believe arrangements can be made with certain embassies regarding the purchase of tickets home.

[otton]

So you would like the Thai government to pay a ticket home to all the overstayers they find ?

Maybe accomodate them in the local hotel and meal vouchers while waiting for the reservations to be made ?

Do you mean that it cost the Thai government less to keep them in the IDC than to let them enter by land a neighbouring country (which in mane cases is those broke overstayers' homecountry)?

And even if they scrapped together the money for an airticket the Thais wouldn't let them go without the Baht 20,000 fine, no matter how much it would cost them SO IT'S NOT A MERE QUESTION OF MONEY FOR THEM.

And why does the law contemplate a jail-term penalty on top of the fine? Does keeping someone 2 years in jail cost nothing to the Thai govt?

Edited August 14, 2007 by otton

[Krub]

So you would like the Thai government to pay a ticket home to all the overstayers they find ?

Maybe accomodate them in the local hotel and meal vouchers while waiting for the reservations to be made ?

Do you mean that it cost the Thai government less to keep them in the IDC than to let them enter by land a neighbouring country (which in mane cases is those broke overstayers' homecountry)?

And even if they scrapped together the money for an airticket the Thais wouldn't let them go without the Baht 20,000 fine, no matter how much it would cost them SO IT'S NOT A MERE QUESTION OF MONEY FOR THEM.

And why does the law contemplate a jail-term penalty on top of the fine? Does keeping someone 2 years in jail cost nothing to the Thai govt?

Fair enough I did not include the non farang overtsayers in my equation.

The cost of jail in Thailand by the looks of things cannot be a lot of money but I am no expert.

The neighboring countries overstayers or illegals are brought back over the borders regularly

[lopburi3]

The two year jail time is allowed by law. It is not a normal result; and in fact the only cases of more than temporary jail time that I know of are when the persons country will not allow there return. I believe it person/country will not pay for return Thailand will do so rather than long term jail; but if this is done the likely consequence will be a future ban on entry.

[Thanyaburi Mac]

The two year jail time is allowed by law. It is not a normal result; and in fact the only cases of more than temporary jail time that I know of are when the persons country will not allow there return. I believe it person/country will not pay for return Thailand will do so rather than long term jail; but if this is done the likely consequence will be a future ban on entry.

I've been working with a Lao-Hmong guy who's been in the IDC now for coming on 30 months.  He'd gone to the U.S. as a refugee in the early 1980s, came back here in '96, got a 30-day airport chop, and was on an 8-year overstay when he was picked up.  Of course, he was not yet an AmCit, only had a Green Card, which, of course II, had long expired.  Thus he has no right to return to the U.S.

His family in Fresno has filed an I-130 petition for him that hasn't yet been approved.  Hope it is, finally.

The IDC is a decidedly unpleasant place to stay for any extended period.  Best to avoid it from what I've seen there!!

Mac

[cdnvic]

Just what this guy needs now rotting in a third world prison. The moral police. Its an overstay visa violation not the crime of the century, folks. Get some perspective.

No, but what these people are doing is not moralizing but pointing out to those who think it's no big deal that there's some pretty serious consequences to not keeping your affairs in order. How many people have you seen get warned about these things but dismiss the warnings as paranoia?

If you post on a public forum you can't just expect to be told what you want to hear. You have to expect some criticism too.

[wadsy]

Anyway, Jingthing, what do you expect anyone on here to do? Of course he is going to get flak, and realistically,rightly so. Its like an old saying, 'Do the crime, do the time' so the guy will have to suffers the consequences of his actions. Not everyone has a 'turn the other cheek' or 'pity me' mentality that you seem to portray.

No sympathy here......................................

Thanks for presenting the hard heart of what I presume to be some kind of right wing Christian. Am I correct? I am an agnostic humanist and I think that is the philosophy I portray. I don't understand the apparent pleasure some people seem to get from verbally spitting on people when they are down and out, no matter if they did bring it on themselves. I do think there are such things as serious crimes that fully and morally deserve the wrath of states. Visa overstaying is not one of them. It is more in the class of someone who hasn't paid his parking tickets. If you are a Christian as I suspect, it seems this humble humanist acts more like one than you do.

I also feel another thing about this. As farangs with almost no rights in Thailand, we should at the very least show solidarity with other farangs who have been burdened by the sometimes incredibly harsh Thai legal system. If we don't, who will? Answer: NOBODY. Now I am not talking about people who have committed serious crimes that are objectively serious crimes, such as murder.

Wrong on both counts.........neither right wing nor christian. I do believe though that everyone has to take responsibility for their actions and as I said, have little sympathy for anyone who blantantly has little regard for the rules that the government here require. I mean its not exactly rocket science to know your responsibilities concerning visiting/staying in another country. Even with the various hoops that you are required to jump through to live in this great country. As farangs with almost no rights in Thailand, we should at the very least show solidarity with other farangs who have been burdened by the sometimes incredibly harsh Thai legal system.Yeah that will work, lets all get together and tell them to go jump. Harsh legal system? Learn to live with it and DON'T do things that will see you in front of a Court. Like overstay for instance. And as far as the philosophy you portray, to me it seems like yours is a 'slap on the wrist, you bad boy, please don't do it again' type.

[thedi]

...but I honestly don't know of any country that would not detain an overstayer. Do you?

He should have gone to Switzerland. There he would be allowed 'Fürsorge Gelder' which would be as much as 3000 US$

[otton]

The two year jail time is allowed by law. It is not a normal result; and in fact the only cases of more than temporary jail time that I know of are when the persons country will not allow there return. I believe it person/country will not pay for return Thailand will do so rather than long term jail; but if this is done the likely consequence will be a future ban on entry.

In the IDC you will find many Africans and Indians (amongst others) disagreeing with you...

The jail term is very much used with them and is meant as a deterrent for their countrymen (they always get blacklisted).

The (relatively) few ones who can't, with time, scrap together a ticket out of Thailand will remain there for many many years...

[Khun ?]

Hard to govern ignorance. I guess the 80 baht a day he earns towards his fine will well fit the crime.

He can be on his way with the return ticket he should of had anyways, or the airline he arrived

on can foot the cost.

He can always use his Muay Thai skills and badass attitude to deal with the situation.