Kindness And Generosity In Thailand

[girlx]

You've in the past been in an environment where most Thais you meet are migrants, hustlers, people out for a buck and with no fall-back family or social structure in place. That's not an environment where you can really grow without being either ruthless, or be cut down/taken advantage of.

please do not assume- this is not true where i live, where the families are well established and are financially stable. i do agree with SBK's/canadiangirl's point which was that if you become part of the family structure and thus are in the "inner circle", your experience would be better (despite the fact that they still see you as a farang and if you were to divorce you would be back to square one). however i have no interest in marrying a Thai guy (or even dating another one at this point), i would just like to live happily here, contribute what i can to society, and otherwise mind my own business. i do find people going out of their way to screw me though, as i am seen as a rich farang girl, and as i am solo it makes it much easier for them. it's unfortunate as i really have helped people around me quite a bit, but they do see me as a sucker and i have no "protection" from them despite the fact that they all see me every day for 3 years being a nice person. i don't think there are many other females in my living situation in thailand- most women here have live in boyfriends or businesses working with Thai partners. i would be interested to hear from any others there might be as to what sort of experiences they have had.

BTW, girlx - I've just read the excerpt from your friend's email more thoroughly. I think he sounds a bit burnt out. I felt equally negative to HK & the HK Chinese before I left there. Having visited HK recently, I now recognise it was pure stress & burn-out on my part. I think when you feel that negative towards the society & people you're living with, it's time to recognise it & move on.

my friend does not live here, just visits annually for years now. so that's that.

i appreciate the fact that this thread has not become abusive. life is always a learning experience.

Edited August 15, 2007 by girlx

[meemiathai]

here's a quote from a friend's email- he has spent way more time in this country than i have:

I’ve found you have to show world class ruthlessness to these folk; if you give in, or show weakness they’ll cook you for dinner and invite their friends over to slurp the western soup.

yes they are ‘real’ people but the codes they live by are a little wonky – time and time again I see them respect the westerner who is ‘king/queen’ and totally use the one that opens himself to being nothing but an ATM/###### machine/status symbol. And Thais have a lot of hatred that can come out for sure – once they know it’s safe to ‘vent’ and that you can be manipulated – you may as well hang it up.

If you think they’re ever going to accept you, be real to you, respect you – (I think) you’re wrong. I know that’s a shallow thing to say, but sometimes life is easier if you play it cool and don’t make those attachments. You really are Queen – you look good, make a great western salary, have education and experience. If anyone ever abuses you you let them know you’re Queen and they can ###### right off right now. Never give in, never show that weakness, or if you show that weakness make sure the next second to show you’re hard.

depressing, i think.

Although I have never lived in thailand, I believe this to be true. But it is same here in HK. And I doubt if it is going to be very different in other countries. Showing weakness, in the animal world will attract predators. There are so many bad things in this world, truly it makes me sad. But I have learned from all these years to accept reality and live with it and concentrate more on the good things. Life is always difficult.

[meemiathai]

I pay much more than other employers in Chiang Mai and have my staff help me make rules about their employement, although we try to have as few rules as possible as long as things are going well.

All I can say is that they NEVER take advantage of me and go out of their way to save me money. They even refuse extra money to do extra things on a regular basis, because "you already pay us well".

A lot of it is because I have two great managers who do the hiring and keep the staff motivated in a positive way, but it is certainly possible to treat Thais fairly and not get stomped on for being too soft.

Good management.

[a2396]

I have had the same experiences, when involved in a personal & supossedly romantic relationship. Give them an inch & they will take a mile. Other relationships with Thai friends, who have not been candidates for romance have been rather normal and similar to what I would have experienced in my own country. Most of these relationships have been quite good & people have not tried to take advantage. In cases where I have been involved with Thai GF's, it has been quite a different story. for the most part, I have been viewed as a cow to be milked. If they did not get what they thought they should get, they are bye, bye (their decision).

[Ulysses G.]

I pay much more than other employers in Chiang Mai and have my staff help me make rules about their employement, although we try to have as few rules as possible as long as things are going well.

All I can say is that they NEVER take advantage of me and go out of their way to save me money. They even refuse extra money to do extra things on a regular basis, because "you already pay us well".

A lot of it is because I have two great managers who do the hiring and keep the staff motivated in a positive way, but it is certainly possible to treat Thais fairly and not get stomped on for being too soft.

Good management.

They work harder than the other staff, share bad working hours and never lord it over them.

Good management indeed!

[girlx]

Showing weakness, in the animal world will attract predators.

This makes total sense, but why is kindness and generosity towards others seen as a weakness?

[cdnvic]

I think that being to afraid of showing kindness because you fear it may make you look weak is a weakness in itself. The stronger character is kind because they believe it is the right way to live despite the fact that it occasionally comes at a cost.

[Ulysses G.]

Showing weakness, in the animal world will attract predators.

This makes total sense, but why is kindness and generosity towards others seen as a weakness?

Being kind and generous towards those who appreciate it and appreciate you is not weakness and is not seen that way by most people.

Being kind and generous towards people who just take advantage of you without any kind of reciprocation is usually stupid as well as weak.

You have to know when to drop your guard.

Edited August 15, 2007 by Ulysses G.

[page449]

Dig into the archives and check the immediate, reflexive actions of Thais to foreigners affected by the tsunami.

[girlx]

well you could also dig and see what happened to most of the money donated to tsunami victims.

[dog412]

My observation is that doing good is indeed respected here in LOS. Being stupid or delusional isn't. So many time here, I see farangs "doing good" to satisfy a desire in themselves rather than addressing true need. Doing good should be it's own reward,.

and unfortunately, that may not be respected. the way i seem to have seen it , is, doing "good" is done when a present or future benefit may be expected. if i have no "power" then i really don't have a lot that someone would respect, excluding "easy" money, if indeed i did have that. foreigners just do not fit so easily into the Thai "system".

[girlx]

Being kind and generous towards those who appreciate it and appreciate you is not weakness and is not seen that way by most people.

Being kind and generous towards people who just take advantage of you without any kind of reciprocation is usually stupid as well as weak.

You have to know when to drop your guard.

you are right, and this is the same thing my friend keeps telling me. people here are guilty until proven innocent, and to protect yourself you have to be hard. i just feel that is a sad commentary on this society, but then, i was brought up in a more moralistic one.

[soundman]

Being mentally strong, firm, a good decision maker & confident in your decisions has absolutley nothing to do with being kind and generous or, on the flip side of the coin, being a penny pincher.

Soundman.

[chinthee]

I've spent the greater part of my working career in Asia, including Thailand. Really, the western concepts of generosity are quite different. In Asia, you are expected to give someone some incentive for just about anything they do for you. That has changed a lot in the past 20 years or so, and especially in service establishments, but not as much in interpersonal relationships.

"What's in it for me," and "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours," are a way of life, and not meant to be as calous as it would sound in the west. They are just accepted cultural norms. I used the example above of giving free food to my garagemen. Did I do that purely out of the goodness of my heart? No. I knew that would curry favor for me. But, I did it partially out of the goodness of my heart. These are the kinds of distinctions you need to draw in Thailand.

Yes, in times of crisis, such as the Tsunami, Thais showed their unqualified helpfulness to foreigners affected. Foreigners showed their generosity by providing financial support. Yes, lots of those funds were pilfered off by those abusing their positions, as usual in Thailand and elsewhere in Asia.

Edited August 15, 2007 by chinthee

[dog412]

Being kind and generous towards those who appreciate it and appreciate you is not weakness and is not seen that way by most people.

Being kind and generous towards people who just take advantage of you without any kind of reciprocation is usually stupid as well as weak.

You have to know when to drop your guard.

you are right, and this is the same thing my friend keeps telling me. people here are guilty until proven innocent, and to protect yourself you have to be hard. i just feel that is a sad commentary on this society, but then, i was brought up in a more moralistic one.

try to attempt two things, to not get "indebted" to others and to not get others "indebted" to you. stay free as long as you can.

[WaiWai]

I used the example above of giving free food to my garagemen. Did I do that purely out of the goodness of my heart? No. I knew that would curry favor for me.

[meemiathai]

Showing weakness, in the animal world will attract predators.

This makes total sense, but why is kindness and generosity towards others seen as a weakness?

Being kind and generous towards those who appreciate it and appreciate you is not weakness and is not seen that way by most people.

Being kind and generous towards people who just take advantage of you without any kind of reciprocation is usually stupid as well as weak.

You have to know when to drop your guard.

I am glad that UG answered that nicely for me. And that was exactly what was in my mind.

It is easy for human beings to have their mind occupied by greed, if you are strong enough a person, you can sometimes even change these people and teach them how to become better people. You yourself are also responsible for how you choose your friends. Do always show people kindness(which I think is a sign of strength) but at the same time know where the boundaries are. It is not easy though how you manage the technique.

[meemiathai]

well you could also dig and see what happened to most of the money donated to tsunami victims.

Human beings are always guilty of something in some ways. It is just a matter of degree.

It just depends on the no. of times to bring someone to test before they commit a sin. I think that includes you and me.

Accusing people of being bad is like an Issan person laughing at an African of being dark.

Girlx, look at those people whom you think are really bad and try to find some good things from them. Not trying to prove anything. Just a test, see how it feels?

Always prepared for the worst from human beings and be strong and protect yourself and realize you don't need them to survive. It helps for me.

[meemiathai]

Being kind and generous towards those who appreciate it and appreciate you is not weakness and is not seen that way by most people.

Being kind and generous towards people who just take advantage of you without any kind of reciprocation is usually stupid as well as weak.

You have to know when to drop your guard.

you are right, and this is the same thing my friend keeps telling me. people here are guilty until proven innocent, and to protect yourself you have to be hard. i just feel that is a sad commentary on this society, but then, i was brought up in a more moralistic one.

I understand what you mean. Are you from Canada?

You have to face reality and make the best use of what you have within your enviroment. It does not help to moan about how dry it is in a desert. Rather feel happy that you are not going to get frost bites. Same when you are in Antartica you at least can have your beer cold.

There are still quite a few good thai people out there!

[meemiathai]

"What's in it for me," and "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours," are a way of life, and not meant to be as calous as it would sound in the west. They are just accepted cultural norms. I used the example above of giving free food to my garagemen. Did I do that purely out of the goodness of my heart? No. I knew that would curry favor for me. But, I did it partially out of the goodness of my heart. These are the kinds of distinctions you need to draw in Thailand.

Good one, chinthee!

In my opinion, nobody does good things out of no purposes at all. Whatever one does, there has to be some purposes which are always for attaining something good in the future. This is human nature.

[chinthee]

"What's in it for me," and "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours," are a way of life, and not meant to be as calous as it would sound in the west. They are just accepted cultural norms. I used the example above of giving free food to my garagemen. Did I do that purely out of the goodness of my heart? No. I knew that would curry favor for me. But, I did it partially out of the goodness of my heart. These are the kinds of distinctions you need to draw in Thailand.

Good one, chinthee!

In my opinion, nobody does good things out of no purposes at all. Whatever one does, there has to be some purposes which are always for attaining something good in the future. This is human nature.

Meemiathai, I believe you're Chinese, so I know you know exactly what I'm talking about.

[meemiathai]

"What's in it for me," and "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours," are a way of life, and not meant to be as calous as it would sound in the west. They are just accepted cultural norms. I used the example above of giving free food to my garagemen. Did I do that purely out of the goodness of my heart? No. I knew that would curry favor for me. But, I did it partially out of the goodness of my heart. These are the kinds of distinctions you need to draw in Thailand.

Good one, chinthee!

In my opinion, nobody does good things out of no purposes at all. Whatever one does, there has to be some purposes which are always for attaining something good in the future. This is human nature.

Meemiathai, I believe you're Chinese, so I know you know exactly what I'm talking about.

I am a human being. With Scotish/Chinese hardware, and not quite sure if it is a Chinese software.

And yes, I guess I know you do know I know exactly what you're talking about.

Edited August 15, 2007 by meemiathai

[chinthee]

"What's in it for me," and "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours," are a way of life, and not meant to be as calous as it would sound in the west. They are just accepted cultural norms. I used the example above of giving free food to my garagemen. Did I do that purely out of the goodness of my heart? No. I knew that would curry favor for me. But, I did it partially out of the goodness of my heart. These are the kinds of distinctions you need to draw in Thailand.

Good one, chinthee!

In my opinion, nobody does good things out of no purposes at all. Whatever one does, there has to be some purposes which are always for attaining something good in the future. This is human nature.

Meemiathai, I believe you're Chinese, so I know you know exactly what I'm talking about.

I am a human being. With Scotish/Chinese hardware, and not quite sure if it is a Chinese software.

Do they call you a banana in HK? If so, you will understand what the software is.

[qwertz]

I think too many people look on Thais as a different species of human that can't possibly think or act the way we Europeans do.

What's new there that so many of you find disappointing?

Is it the preoccupation with money, the dishonesty, the laissez faire attitude to life?

Thais are more like us than many outsiders care to admit and they have just as many good points and bad.

Over the last 30-odd years I've been an expat in many different cultures and I can safely endorse that the treatment you get depends very much on the company you keep.

Race, religion, language, cultural differences - they're all small time compared to your personal ability to rub along with folks and spot the users well in advance.

To all of you who've been disappointed by Thai behaviour I can only say, don't let it embitter you to the vast majority of good people there.

[chinthee]

I think too many people look on Thais as a different species of human that can't possibly think or act the way we Europeans do.

What's new there that so many of you find disappointing?

Is it the preoccupation with money, the dishonesty, the laissez faire attitude to life?

Thais are more like us than many outsiders care to admit and they have just as many good points and bad.

Over the last 30-odd years I've been an expat in many different cultures and I can safely endorse that the treatment you get depends very much on the company you keep.

Race, religion, language, cultural differences - they're all small time compared to your personal ability to rub along with folks and spot the users well in advance.

To all of you who've been disappointed by Thai behaviour I can only say, don't let it embitter you to the vast majority of good people there.

I second your emotion. Long time successful expats usually think like that. Anywhere I go it's just water off the back of a duck.

[gzu88bv]

I bought my girl's mother, a 77 year old lady, her first!! passport for THB 1000 last year. Is that not generous? Nobody has bought me passport yet.

[WaiWai]

I bought my girl's mother, a 77 year old lady, her first!! passport for THB 1000 last year. Is that not generous? Nobody has bought me passport yet.

That's one way to give someone a hint !

[meemiathai]

"What's in it for me," and "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours," are a way of life, and not meant to be as calous as it would sound in the west. They are just accepted cultural norms. I used the example above of giving free food to my garagemen. Did I do that purely out of the goodness of my heart? No. I knew that would curry favor for me. But, I did it partially out of the goodness of my heart. These are the kinds of distinctions you need to draw in Thailand.

Good one, chinthee!

In my opinion, nobody does good things out of no purposes at all. Whatever one does, there has to be some purposes which are always for attaining something good in the future. This is human nature.

Meemiathai, I believe you're Chinese, so I know you know exactly what I'm talking about.

I am a human being. With Scotish/Chinese hardware, and not quite sure if it is a Chinese software.

Do they call you a banana in HK? If so, you will understand what the software is.

No they don't. The thing is I look very farang to them but I speak perfect cantonese and understand perfectly their culture. I have always grown up with chinese people but the strange thing is I think very differently from them although I understand very well their mentality. I really don't know what I am but I am not too concerned.

[Douggie Style]

Goodness is universal, not cultural. You would do well to remember that.

Perhaps you meant 'kindness is universal' ....

Goodness is inherently cultural.

[mrtoad]

Just back on to the original topic. Kindness and generosity in Thailand? What is this all about? What do people expect,?Red carpet, angel playing harps, free rent etc. I'd say that if you are perceived as having a negative attitude then people are less inclined to interact with you.

It's not different here than any other country, kind people and some not so kind people.

I'd say from my own experience of living here, that there is more of a community spirit around. People always talk and are polite in our Soi, there is a good mixture of Thai, Farang and other Asian famalies living in our soi and it is in fact quite a sociable place, where people are always happy to help and will often stop and chat or have a drink in the cafe. Probably, some of that is due to having a young daughter who seems to be about the most well known person in our Soi.

If I compare it Bristol, in the UK where I lived for a number of years, you'd be lucky to count on one hand the amount of neighbours that you actually knew.