Scary Toyota Fortuner Incident! Anyone Similar?

[Edorf]

Going to work today on this sunny and dry day I got scared ***less! My Toyota Fortuner 3.0V is now 9 months old (11,000 km), and this far it has been satisfying in every way (except for the already well known 'don't go faster than 80 through a curve' issue).

However, this morning I was driving from Phuket Town to my work in Patong. Car all fine as usual... coming over the hill and then down towards Patong I hit traffic which flowed at 10-15 km/h. Just before one of the turns I applied the brake very softly and not hard or quickly... not to stop, just preparing for the curve. To my great suprise there was no brakes!!! The pedal shook so hard that my whole leg shook together with a terrible shreeking sound. Through my leg it felt like the pedal just hit metal or something... not the usual soft feeling, but regardless, there was no breaking power what so ever. Luckily I was going slow so the handbrake could handle it, but had I gone above 50 km/h i would have jetted right off the hillside. I pulled over and stopped, using the handbrake. No warning lights were lit so I went out to look and to smell. Nothing, and no smell at all! I then put my hazard lights on and tried slowly to drive on the side and the brakes seemed to work fine again. This happened one more time but on flat ground on 2nd Road but then it just seemed to work fine again so eventually I got to work.

Later two mechanics from Pearl Toyota showed up at work. Me and some of our Thai staff explained to them what had happened. They then took the car for a ride, but when they came back they said nothing was wrong. However, they tried to say that it must have been the ABS system. I told them I have always driven new and good cars for more than 20 years without any incident and I know how the ABS works and feels like. And I stressed again that the brake power was completely gone/lost. They agreed to take it to the workshop to "have a look", and hopefully i will hear something tomorrow.

The problem with this is that if they dont find any problem IF they really dive in to it, I will be scared of the car. I know what happened, and I know it was not the ABS. The brakes were GONE! This is like when you have something that does not work and you send it for repairs but they can not find anything so you get it back, but then the problem happens again. Unless they find a problem and can identify the reason, I will always have this incident in the back of my mind, and driving the car will not be a pleasure at all.

Has anyone experienced anything similar? Or, can anyone maybe enlighten me to what is wrong? Because whatever the find is or not, something serious MUST be wrong!

[taxexile]

just a thought , but if you were using the brakes a lot to control your speed coming down the hills the discs could have overheated , causing fade.

this may have resulted in loss of braking the next time you applied them.

[Farma]

I had a Grumman step van with similar symptoms a few years back. The brakes would work fine and other times there would be severe shaking when the brakes were applied or no brakes at all.

The dealer would take it away and check only to return it saying they couldn’t replicate the fault or find a fault when testing on the computer.

After months of complaining they eventually replaced the ABS computer under warranty. The problems ceased.

I’m not familiar with Fortuners but this could be something worth looking at.

Edit rereading your post the symptoms are identical including the leg shaking when the pedal was applied.

Edited August 23, 2007 by Farma

[Crossy]

Scary, glad you're OK and no accident occured

I'd agree with the Farma, sounds like an unwarrantied application of the ABS. I doubt that it's brake fade, discs tend not to fade anyway, you have to get them really hot to notice anything.

Might be wise to take it to the dealer for a look, there have been several 'anecdotal' stores of Fortuners with brake issues, can't be too careful!!

[Plus]

Sounds like ABS kicked in with brakes not even half engaged. I guess the reduction in braking power would appear as a total brake loss.

It could happen if you just drove through deep water. Later on wheels heat up and water and moisture evaporates and there's no chance of duplicating this problem in a service center.

That's one reason I know about. There could be some other cause of ABS malfunctioning.

[Farma]

I’d be interested to hear what the Toyota people did to solve the problem.

In the case I mentioned, 6 Grumman’s had been delivered in a batch. Five of them had this problem with faulty ABS computers. The vehicle was in and out of the dealer’s workshop more times then I can remember.

It took months for the dealer to admit there was a problem. We’d even shown them the brakes worked perfectly with the ABS computer disconnected.

The fault occurred about 3 months after my vehicle was delivered. Initially it felt like glazed discs at speeds below 60 kmph. I would feel the steering wheel shake from side to side when the brakes were applied. The whole front end felt like it was about to fall off.

Other times I would apply the brakes, the pedal would move down as normal and then suddenly force back against my foot. This then progressed to a violent thumping against my foot. The brakes were having no affect and I would hear a metallic scraping sound as if the pads were worn out.

The system degraded so much I would test the brakes as I slowly moved off each morning. Sometimes they would work as advertised the next nothing. As soon as I felt the brake pedal kick back against my foot I knew the problem had returned. No warning lights would appear on the dash. It was intermittent and unpredictable. The brakes would work fine one week, the next they would fail daily.

After the problem was solved the dealer’s mechanic admitted they had problems with 4 other Grumman’s delivered in that shipment. He thought humidity had somehow entered the sealed computer causing the problems.

I had a similar experience with a Holden Commodore rental car with less than 1,000 km’s on the clock about 5 years ago. It went straight back to Avis and I got a replacement.

[baabaabobo]

This happened to a friend of mine in Phuket who had no brakes on his fortuner coming over the hill from Karon to Chalong.

He also was saved by the handbrake. Toyota ended up giving him a full refund on the car (still new) and he swears he will never buy Toyota again.

[snowflake]

Sorry to hear about the problem, but there seems to be a lot of complaints on the brakes of the Fortuner... Strange, I have never had a problem with my Vigo (same car), neither has my friend...

BTW, if you are scared of the Fortuner are you going to sell it??? I could take it off you for a small discount as we both know there is a problem with the brakes....

Well I do hope that they are working on the car and not just parking it in the shadow to wait for you...

Please keep us updated as I have looked at a Fortuner to buy...

[Plus]

If they can't replicate the problem there's little they can do at the service center except check and recheck that everything is in order, as it is most probably is.

Problems like this need a knowledgable mechanic or engineer to experince himself. The fault might lie with ABS manufacturer or design flaw that triggers the effect under certain conditions.

[lazeeboy]

If they can't replicate the problem there's little they can do at the service center except check and recheck that everything is in order, as it is most probably is.

Problems like this need a knowledgable mechanic or engineer to experince himself. The fault might lie with ABS manufacturer or design flaw that triggers the effect under certain conditions.

hopefully this is a one off and not a design fault ,i'd hate for my fortuner breaks to go ,especially with my daughter on board ,will keep looking at this thread for updates

[Edorf]

Thanks for all suggestions as to what could be wrong. It frightens me to hear that these are known problems!!!

Pearl Toyota has now returned the car. Unfortunately I did not speak with them as it was one of our drivers that picked it up for me. What the say is that nothing is wrong but they have "adjusted the brakes". They also told the driver that "the farang" was most likely not experienced with how the ABS system works when in action (!!!) I can tell you, again, that I AM experienced and it was NOT the ABS at work... maybe the problem is the ABS system, but not me not understanding how the ABS gives feed back when it comes in to action... not at all!!! There was NO brake power at all... ZERO... just the violent shaking and the noise!

Now, according to kind responders here I get worried as I am sure "making adjustments" does not mean having changed the ABS computer! Can someone give me any advice on what to expect if this, God forbid, should happen again? I mean, if I am at high speed and apply the brakes and this problem occurs again, will the brakes work again if I qiuckly let go of the break pedal and then directly after apply it again? OR, will the handbrake be my only help?

I am very grateful for any advice and/or comments!

PS

Snowflake: Sorry, it is my company car. If i was the owner you could have had it yesterday!

[PETERTHEEATER]

Thanks for all suggestions as to what could be wrong. It frightens me to hear that these are known problems!!!

Pearl Toyota has now returned the car. Unfortunately I did not speak with them as it was one of our drivers that picked it up for me. What the say is that nothing is wrong but they have "adjusted the brakes". They also told the driver that "the farang" was most likely not experienced with how the ABS system works when in action (!!!) I can tell you, again, that I AM experienced and it was NOT the ABS at work... maybe the problem is the ABS system, but not me not understanding how the ABS gives feed back when it comes in to action... not at all!!! There was NO brake power at all... ZERO... just the violent shaking and the noise!

Now, according to kind responders here I get worried as I am sure "making adjustments" does not mean having changed the ABS computer! Can someone give me any advice on what to expect if this, God forbid, should happen again? I mean, if I am at high speed and apply the brakes and this problem occurs again, will the brakes work again if I qiuckly let go of the break pedal and then directly after apply it again? OR, will the handbrake be my only help?

I am very grateful for any advice and/or comments!

PS

Snowflake: Sorry, it is my company car. If i was the owner you could have had it yesterday!

The Hand brake is not going to help much in stopping from high speed or when descending a hill gathering speed. If the brakes don't work at all when you depress the pedal, immediately start shifting down the gear box, D3, D2, D1 and use the handbrake to help bring the speed down. Admittedly, with a diesel engine you wont get the same degree of engine braking that you get with a gasoline engine but, when you have nothing else - use it!

You orginal problem sound like an ABS computer glitch; that's the problem with putting bloody microchips into everything. If it happens again (God forbid) and you recover the situation, disconnect the ABS computer and get the vehicle to Toyota with a strong complaint.

There was a similar post from a Chiengmai driver a couple of months ago (search this forum) and he may have accepted a Toyota 'settlement' but been legally gagged as a result because he never posted follow-ups.

Keep safe.

[CHdiver]

In the time I was driving on snow and Ice, I remember that when I was braking on Ice exactly that happend what you described...nothing beside of noise and the shaking of my leg (pulsing of the brake pedal). You may have hit a slipery part of the road.

[Sanpatong]

Admittedly, with a diesel engine you wont get the same degree of engine braking that you get with a gasoline engine

Err, with a diesel engine you of course have MORE engine braking than with gasolene. Maybe you meant to say "with an automatic gearbox you have less engine breaking than with manual" ?

With my old Isuzu I could drive at a corner at speed, slam it in second gear and the rear wheels would actually lock up for a bit, such was the breaking force. Don't do that at home. Or with your own car.

To the original poster: Have them replace the ABS computer. No use waiting to see if it kills you next week or not. It does sound like an ABS computer issue because mechanical issues would be easier to spot I guess.

( Also, don't have coke cans or other stuff about around the pedals. )

[baabaabobo]

Edorf I think you should read this:

http://matrix.bangkokpost.co.th/forums/thr...30#Message58403

[technocracy]

Admittedly, with a diesel engine you wont get the same degree of engine braking that you get with a gasoline engine

Err, with a diesel engine you of course have MORE engine braking than with gasolene. Maybe you meant to say "with an automatic gearbox you have less engine breaking than with manual" ?

A diesel engine sure does have WAY more engine braking than a petrol engine .. .. typical petrol engine has a compression ratio of around 8:1 to 10:1 where as diesel has typically 20:1 to 25:1.

A for this lack of service from Toyota all I can say is I am happy with my Mitsubishi!

[Gary A]

Anywhere in the western world, Toyota would have had a recall to repair or replace ALL the braking systems. Here in Thailand, life is cheap and I'm sure it would be cheaper for them to pay off a few accident victims and keep it quiet rather than suffer a recall and damage their reputation.

[Clipped]

the way abs works is by applying and releasing the brakes many times per second to prevent lockup and skids, this is usually done by using something similiar to a cog...around the fluid reservoir.

this sounds like the cog was activated and not distributing even braking pressure to both sides of the front brakes at the same time...which could describe the violent shaking.

the real question is, why the cog got activated, more than likely it was activated via backpressure into the system and a fault in braking feedback, manufacturers design brakes to have feedback for the driver and in the case of abs to activate the cog...the feedback design is obviously flawed or mistuned by the factory.

[baabaabobo]

Like in the article I posted my friend was made to sign a paper that he would not publicize his brake problem - they paid him to shut up.

[Far Angst]

'

Toyota’s attempt to blackmail their Fortuner client into silence is a definite proof Toyota acting mala fides risking their clients’ lives with equipment Toyota full well knows occasionally to malfunction.

That letter would be pure dynamite in any court case in EU or USA involving Toyota Fortuner/Vigo brakes. And Toyota would pay through the nose both damages and punitive damages.

,

[gjones]

It could be a couple of things one has already been mentioned about the ABS system.

There is also a possibility that the brake fluid might have had air in it, a leak or that a Thai mechanic had left the lid off the brake fluid reservoir.

Check the paintwork and around the area where the brake fluid reservoir to see if any evidence of leaks. Also check the brake pipes to see if any evidence of damage or replacement by the dealer.

Bleeding the system is the only adjustment the dealer could do unless there was serious problems with the front callipers. If they would have failed then you would seriously know about it.

happy motoring

[PETERTHEEATER]

Admittedly, with a diesel engine you wont get the same degree of engine braking that you get with a gasoline engine

Err, with a diesel engine you of course have MORE engine braking than with gasolene. Maybe you meant to say "with an automatic gearbox you have less engine breaking than with manual" ?

A diesel engine sure does have WAY more engine braking than a petrol engine .. .. typical petrol engine has a compression ratio of around 8:1 to 10:1 where as diesel has typically 20:1 to 25:1.

A for this lack of service from Toyota all I can say is I am happy with my Mitsubishi!

http://bankspower.com/why_add_exhaust_brake.cfm

[taxexile]

technocracy

A for this lack of service from Toyota all I can say is I am happy with my Mitsubishi!

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Brake Failure, shogun pinn 2001

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DIANEMC Feb 23 2005, 03:25 PM Post #1

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[email protected] bought a 2001 shogun pinn GDI elegance estate nine months ago since then ive been having problems with brake failure on and off ive taken it back to where i bought it several times and then when i was towing a horse trailer and went to stop at a roundabout and the brakes failed again i demanded they fix it so they sent it to the main dealers in hull who keep it a week and couldnt find a fault with it the brakes are still failing on and off so if anyone knows whats wrong with it please help as i dont know what else to do

MidNightRacing Feb 23 2005, 04:05 PM Post #2

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QUOTE(DIANEMC @ Feb 23 2005, 09:25 PM)

[email protected] bought a 2001 shogun pinn GDI elegance estate nine months ago since then ive been having problems with brake failure on and off ive taken it back to where i bought it several times and then when i was towing a horse trailer and went to stop at a roundabout and the brakes failed again i demanded they fix it so they sent it to the main dealers in hull who keep it a week and couldnt find a fault with it the brakes are still failing on and off so if anyone knows whats wrong with it please help as i dont know what else to do

to midnight racing thanks for reply they think its a fault with the abs the`ve checked everything else but their stumped i was hoping someone else might have had a similar problem as its scary driving a car what might not stop when you need it too!

redsnapper Mar 22 2005, 09:53 PM Post #4

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Time is now: 26th August 2007 - 03:38 AM

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[A_Traveller]

I suggest that the OP sends his concerns direct to Toyota Japan, possibly even translated into Japanese. Toyota Global is more likely to be proactive.

Regards

[Edorf]

the way abs works is by applying and releasing the brakes many times per second to prevent lockup and skids, this is usually done by using something similiar to a cog...around the fluid reservoir.

this sounds like the cog was activated and not distributing even braking pressure to both sides of the front brakes at the same time...which could describe the violent shaking.

the real question is, why the cog got activated, more than likely it was activated via backpressure into the system and a fault in braking feedback, manufacturers design brakes to have feedback for the driver and in the case of abs to activate the cog...the feedback design is obviously flawed or mistuned by the factory.

Thanks for trying to explain what might be wrong, but this does not explain the complete lack/failure of braking power, does it?

[Edorf]

Thanks for all attempts at trying to explain what is wrong. I would like to ask if there are anyone that has any copies of correspondance between Toyota (local, Bangkok, or Japan), consumer groups, or legal advisors and if willing to share with me. With this we would have more ammunition when going to Toyota to tell them that there IS a problem, and they ALREADY know it! I work for some highly influencial people so if I could just get loaded with something more than just my own verbal story and anonymous comments on the internet I might be able to take this further. All I need is just a couple of others with the same problems and the correspondance they have had... not nessessarily solutions, but complaints and descriptions.

[technocracy]

Admittedly, with a diesel engine you wont get the same degree of engine braking that you get with a gasoline engine

Err, with a diesel engine you of course have MORE engine braking than with gasolene. Maybe you meant to say "with an automatic gearbox you have less engine breaking than with manual" ?

A diesel engine sure does have WAY more engine braking than a petrol engine .. .. typical petrol engine has a compression ratio of around 8:1 to 10:1 where as diesel has typically 20:1 to 25:1.

A for this lack of service from Toyota all I can say is I am happy with my Mitsubishi!

http://bankspower.com/why_add_exhaust_brake.cfm

Well seeing as they are flogging a product on the basis of that article I don't think it much of a point, as for the sentence: "Few things can be more terrifying to someone driving a heavily loaded motorhome or a pickup pulling a trailer than a long downhill grade that progressively overpowers the vehicle's braking system as the driver struggles to keep downhill speed in check." I've experienced this in petrol cars also - pretty standard affair!

Personally I've never noticed a lack of engine braking on diesel cars or pickups (and I've driven quite a few) - no different to petrol and in my current pickup the engine braking is more noticeable. Anyway it's a bit of topic.

As for the above quote of the Mitsubishi problems he bought a 4 year old 2nd hand car and started experiencing problems (in 2005 according to date of the posts!) - a bit of topic! Here the Fortuners being discussed are new cars - the only equivalent to these would be if new Tritons or Pajeros started having brake failure (which to my knowledge aren't!)

Back on topic - I think you'll hit the brick wall with other peoples experiences as it's been stated before Toyota appear to be paying people to keep quiet about the problems.

I think the approach of going to Toyota Japan or global would fail since they would just knock it back to Toyota Thailand. I think Toyota would see there <deleted> a bit quicker if any letters were via a lawyer rather than 'just' a consumer.

[Plus]

the way abs works is by applying and releasing the brakes many times per second to prevent lockup and skids..

Thanks for trying to explain what might be wrong, but this does not explain the complete lack/failure of braking power, does it?

Consider that ABS disengages your brakes many times a second. In normal conditions it means that the wheels are locked at least half the time and it's a fact that ABS reduces braking power. Let's say, for the sake of the argument, that it reduces it by 10% (of total power, when the wheels are completely locked).

10% of full braking power is not a lot but you were not braking hard, were you? Let's say you applied 20%, than 10% of total breaking power would be half, if you just touched the brakes and ABS kicked in it would appear that you have no brakes at all.

[Clipped]

is the fortuner adaptive 4 wheel drive or full time?

if the 4 wheel drive kicks in only when needed, the shaking of the front end do to the mis biased braking system could very much engage the four wheel drive.

actually adding more torque while driving and giving the impression that the brakes are completely out.

if this is the case, it is a rolling death trap that can be engaged by drivng over a bumpy road and applying the right combination of braking, turning, acceleration and damping /rebound of the shocks...kinda like unlocking a combination lock, with the right sequence.

remember...im not sure how the 4 wheel drive system works on the fortuner....whether it s full time or on demand.

[taxexile]

the only equivalent to these would be if new Tritons or Pajeros started having brake failure (which to my knowledge aren't!)

im not particularly having a go at mitsubishi , but google "brake failure" or "brake problem" or "abs problems" with any make of car and you can probably find dozens of sites for dozens of manufacturers with disgruntled customers complaining about braking systems and the dealers inability to diagnose them. (on new models)

this topic is relevant to me as i have a 3.0 vigo , which probably has a similar braking system to the fortuner.

initially i thought it was brake fade or warped rotors , but as it is intermittent , i would guess that it is an irreproducible electrical glitch with the abs computer.

i would badger toyota head office relentlessly , threaten bad publicity , write to the press etc. until they replace the abs controller.

if they wont do it , then for your own piece of mind and safety either sell the car or replace the system at your own expense.

i recall last year a honda owner smashed her car up with a hammer in front of the tv cameras in protest at a honda dealer who wouldnt take her complaints about the poor reliability of her new car seriously.

honda head office quickly gave her a new car.

but good luck in sorting it out , it was hard enough dealing with the car trade in the uk even with all the consumer protection in place there. i would hate to have to do it here.

Edited August 27, 2007 by taxexile