Scary Toyota Fortuner Incident! Anyone Similar?

[sibeymai]

The problem is unlikely to be anything mechanical to do with the braking system. The prime suspect is the ABS components. The experience you had sounds very much like the ABS working as if all the wheels were on the verge of locking up. The system then applies and releases the brakes very quickly...several times a second...to keep the wheel rotating and maintaining traction. This is usually the shudder felt and it can come all the way back to the brake pedal.

To see if this is what happened find a gravel road with lots of small slippery pebbles. When doing about 60k/mh hit the brakes as hard and as suddenly as you can. You will most likely experience the same sensation as you have described as the ABS struggles to maintain wheel rotation.

If it is in fact the same sensation then chances are you have a faulty ABS component somewhere.

[Edorf]

The problem is unlikely to be anything mechanical to do with the braking system. The prime suspect is the ABS components. The experience you had sounds very much like the ABS working as if all the wheels were on the verge of locking up. The system then applies and releases the brakes very quickly...several times a second...to keep the wheel rotating and maintaining traction. This is usually the shudder felt and it can come all the way back to the brake pedal.

To see if this is what happened find a gravel road with lots of small slippery pebbles. When doing about 60k/mh hit the brakes as hard and as suddenly as you can. You will most likely experience the same sensation as you have described as the ABS struggles to maintain wheel rotation.

If it is in fact the same sensation then chances are you have a faulty ABS component somewhere.

As I have lived almost half my life in Scandinavia with cold, icy, and slippery winter roads and the other half in paradises all over the world most with gravely roads, more pot holes than actual road, floodings as sent from heaven etc. I do know and have experienced many times how the ABS system works when in action, and what if feels like when it cant get a grip or keep the wheels rotating. What you and others so kindly suggesting is all fine and highly appreciated, but the problem is that in my case the problem was not for the ABS to maintain rotation of the wheels.... there were no braking at all! The wheels just kept rolling... no braking power. Only because I had a speed of less than 15km/h (I know because for some reason thats the first thing I checked when everything happened) and was able to use the handbrake did the car stop. "The car" did not transmit the little or sometimes more pedal feedback which is common when ABS kicks in... and the wheels were not doing that brake/release "hundred times" per seccond as is normal... because, there were NO brakes at all. When I first applied the braking pedal very softly it was as I said the very violent shaking (you know when as kids at school we placed half of the ruler on the table and the other half sticking out in the air and then snapping it so it would vibrate up and down and make a funny noise? That's how my leg felt!) As soon as I got this sensation and feedback (probably within a second) I stepped on the brakes hard and thats when I realized the brakes were GONE and when it felt like the pedal was grinding metal... this is when that terrible sound occured also. I thought it very strange that when I went out I could not smell anything at all, because with that noise and that grinding metal feeling I thought the car would be smoking!

Anyway, new development today! Out of nowhere, Toyota is now coming down with 4 technicians on Wednesday. They want to have a look at the car and also for me to drive it with them so they can understand what I mean(!!!???) Anyway, I have just purchased a THB 120,000 stereo and was going to install it tomorrow, but I was told to hold(!!??)

Edited August 27, 2007 by Edorf

[Far Angst]

Funny how many times you must over and over tell on this forum that you know your cars/brakes/ABS and that you have the experience to back your observations. Imagine how it must seem to Toyota; the incident does not reappear in their inspection, ergo; farang just does not know how the ABS works. Further; Toyota pretends this is something new and a first ever incidence of this kind.

I’ll lay odds that when the four technicians have gone they have changed, on the sly, the ABS computer without ever admitting there was nothing wrong in the first place. Before I hear Toyota really to do something about this very obvious and very dangerous situation, I’ll make sure no one buys a Fortuner/Vigo in my immediate environ. I have already reported of this matter to press in Europe.

Toyota has the next move.

[gjones]

Hope you get a chance to read this before the guys from Toyota arrive

www.e-z.net/~ts/hybrakes.htm

http: // forums.streetfire.net/showpost.php?...amp;postcount=2

[Clipped]

heres a little info on how abs works for a gmc, but am sure it is the same fundamentally...but this is still only the electrical part...

http://www.freeautoadvice.com/board/ubbhtm...TML/007528.html

[Edorf]

Update: So, as promised more technicians from Toyota showed up at work this morning... one being introduced as being an expert on ABS. He opened the car and sat down in the front seat and turned on the engine... every now and then pressing the brake pedal as we talked. Anyway, after having explained again what happened, the "expert" said that when they last took the car to the shop no faults showed up on their computer and he went on to give me a complimentary explanation of how ABS feels like when it works. Again, I said I KNOW, but this was not what happened. I then asked why, if nothing was wrong, they had "adjusted the brakes" last time. He answered that they did that in case it would feel better for me if the pedal took action a little further in (meaning the pedal itself travelling more before brakes are applied). I told him that maybe the ABS conputer need to be changed, but he said as they had no readout of errors on the computer Bangkok would not authorize a change.

I asked what they were going to do, but he answered that it would be easier if the incident happened again but then to stop the car and call them... not continue driving(!!!) AS IF!!!!!! I asked if they would sign a statement confirming that they rather wait to see if it happened again before they did anything further, but of course they politely declined. Then I started refering to all the chatter on the internet about this... then they looked at each really quick, but as quickly, reverted by saying that that was a problem with the first roll-out of the model, not anymore. I said that I thought it funny that I, driving the "new model" had exactly the same experience and "car feed-back" as those that were writing on the net that appearantly must have the "old model". After this they agreed to take it back to the shop again, and off they went with the car.

Please note, that in this explanation I mean no ill intention to the service guys... they were friendly enough.

I will report back again here once I get the car back again.

[Edorf]

I forgot to really underline the most important thing in case it was not clear in my prior post:

To all you people with "the old roll-out" of Fortuner you are herby warned!!! The ABS "expert" in his eagerness to fend off my arguments, actually confirmed to me that there is a problem with the ABS computer on the "old" model!!! I know this was just a verbal confirmation but at least a Toyota technician from Pearl actually confirmed the ABS computer glitch! Makes me feel even more certain that everyone (myself) included are reporting 100% correctly (no matter "old" or "new" model)!

Edited August 29, 2007 by Edorf

[Far Angst]

And yet, there was no recall nor warning on the part of Toyota fort the "older model".

It appears some must die before Toyota does anything. Perhaps some might have died already

because of faulty Toyota brakes, but the incidents are being brushed away as just another

curious accident where the driver did not even brake?

[Plus]

They could have replaced the faulty parts while doing routine service.

Fortuner is a part of IMV, the problem should appear all over the world where they sell Vigo based trucks.

[Edorf]

They could have replaced the faulty parts while doing routine service.

Fortuner is a part of IMV, the problem should appear all over the world where they sell Vigo based trucks.

I agree, most probably they have replaced during normal service.

As for what I and several others have experienced; I have since the day this happened searched the internet together with multi-lingual freidns and reports of similar incidents with exact same car feed back are coming from Philippines, Malaysia, South Africa and even Venezuela!

My car still has not been returned, so no report of that yet. Will be today I hope!

[Edorf]

Still no word from Pearl Toyota about the car and if I get it back today. However, I have this afternoon received investigative but friendly and accommodating phone calls to my mobile (NOT from Phuket(!)) Just wanted to post this now IF later I dont post on this subject again and as the edit button disappears after a few minutes (a hint should be taken). Thanks to you all for all good wishes and attempts at assistance!

[baabaabobo]

In other words if you don't post again then you have accepted thier offer and they have bought your silence?

[Losangels]

Its awful that the problem will be swept under the carpet by Toyota and knowing fully well that they will get away with it here in Thailand. The potential life and death caused by the ABS malfunction problem is secondary to the corporate's bottom line

[LookSaMoon]

Thanks for all attempts at trying to explain what is wrong. I would like to ask if there are anyone that has any copies of correspondance between Toyota (local, Bangkok, or Japan), consumer groups, or legal advisors and if willing to share with me. With this we would have more ammunition when going to Toyota to tell them that there IS a problem, and they ALREADY know it! I work for some highly influencial people so if I could just get loaded with something more than just my own verbal story and anonymous comments on the internet I might be able to take this further. All I need is just a couple of others with the same problems and the correspondance they have had... not nessessarily solutions, but complaints and descriptions.

I found this on Thai website >>> carvariety

It's written in Thai. I cant translate for you but your Thai friend might can do that .

And if you scoll down to bottom of page you might find what you are asking for.

[Edorf]

Thanks for the link! Even though that is concerning the Vigo 2005 model it will be good ammunition for us as what I experienced are the same things as others did with the 2006 and 2005/2006 Fortuner models!

As you can see I am not gone yet The reason I stated what i did in my previous post is just in case I will be restrained from posting more. Please remember what I mentioned earlier that I am not the owner of the car. It is my company car.

Anyway, the car was just returned from Toyota Pearl a little while ago. They say they have re-checked but nothing is wrong but that they did change the brake oil. However, less than 10 minutes after the car was returned I received one more phone call from Toyota Bangkok. They asked me to return the car to Toyota Pearl on Tuesday next week as they will be sending down their own mechanics to go through the car and check it.

I will keep you updated!

[Edorf]

Ok, here is latest update: On tuesday I delivered the car to Toyota Pearl. There were 3 managers and/or senior technicians from Toyota Bangkok waiting for me. They called me in to a meeting room on seccond floor and I explained to them in detail what had happened. The meeting lasted for about 30 minutes and was also attended by a representative from Pearl and also by the “ABS expert” at Pearl. They listened to my story, took notes, and seemed very understanding and accommodating. The “Bangkok” people then promised to run computer tests and to check the ABS computer in ways that the Peal technicians could not do (they said). They also said that the car would be ready to be picked up later in the afternoon and that they would call me.

By 4:30pm, no one from Toyota had called to tell me that the Fortuner was ready to be picked up, so we called them at 4:35pm. They said that the car was ready but that it could not be picked up as they closed at 5pm. We asked if they could leave the key with the security guard as they have done before, but that was not possible. So, at 9:30am Wednesday morning I went there to pick it up. One lady from the customer services office approached me and told me that the car was ready to go. I asked her if they had found any faults and if anything had been done. She said she did not know but that the car was ok to drive now and that the Bangkok guys (who had left for Bangkok already) would send a report to “us”. I insisted on being told what had been done, if anything, and she then went to look for a technician (turned out to be the “ABS expert” at Pearl). They both walked me out to the car, and when I asked the technician he told me that they had “adjusted the brake monitor” (whatever that is), but that nothing had been done to the ABS system. He said the car is now ok and safe to drive. I left. And, no report received yet.

[Far Angst]

Thank you for keeping us posted. Good luck to you!

[PETERTHEEATER]

The problem is unlikely to be anything mechanical to do with the braking system. The prime suspect is the ABS components. The experience you had sounds very much like the ABS working as if all the wheels were on the verge of locking up. The system then applies and releases the brakes very quickly...several times a second...to keep the wheel rotating and maintaining traction. This is usually the shudder felt and it can come all the way back to the brake pedal.

To see if this is what happened find a gravel road with lots of small slippery pebbles. When doing about 60k/mh hit the brakes as hard and as suddenly as you can. You will most likely experience the same sensation as you have described as the ABS struggles to maintain wheel rotation.

If it is in fact the same sensation then chances are you have a faulty ABS component somewhere.

As I have lived almost half my life in Scandinavia with cold, icy, and slippery winter roads and the other half in paradises all over the world most with gravely roads, more pot holes than actual road, floodings as sent from heaven etc. I do know and have experienced many times how the ABS system works when in action, and what if feels like when it cant get a grip or keep the wheels rotating. What you and others so kindly suggesting is all fine and highly appreciated, but the problem is that in my case the problem was not for the ABS to maintain rotation of the wheels.... there were no braking at all! The wheels just kept rolling... no braking power. Only because I had a speed of less than 15km/h (I know because for some reason thats the first thing I checked when everything happened) and was able to use the handbrake did the car stop. "The car" did not transmit the little or sometimes more pedal feedback which is common when ABS kicks in... and the wheels were not doing that brake/release "hundred times" per seccond as is normal... because, there were NO brakes at all. When I first applied the braking pedal very softly it was as I said the very violent shaking (you know when as kids at school we placed half of the ruler on the table and the other half sticking out in the air and then snapping it so it would vibrate up and down and make a funny noise? That's how my leg felt!) As soon as I got this sensation and feedback (probably within a second) I stepped on the brakes hard and thats when I realized the brakes were GONE and when it felt like the pedal was grinding metal... this is when that terrible sound occured also. I thought it very strange that when I went out I could not smell anything at all, because with that noise and that grinding metal feeling I thought the car would be smoking!

Anyway, new development today! Out of nowhere, Toyota is now coming down with 4 technicians on Wednesday. They want to have a look at the car and also for me to drive it with them so they can understand what I mean(!!!???) Anyway, I have just purchased a THB 120,000 stereo and was going to install it tomorrow, but I was told to hold(!!??)

It certainly seems that the ABS controller is at fault. It is easy to say that it had a 'glitch' but in my experience with similar systems in military aircraft a possible cause is RF (Radio Frequency) interference. The manufacturers design and install screening for the microcomputers and it is essential that any earths (grounds) are connected and have continuity. Any RF sources that the manufacturer installs in the vehicle (e.g Radio/CD players) should have been tested during development to ensure that they do not interfere with vital circuits.

Many vehicle owners have after market systems installed such as DVD players with screens, sound systems, GPS and the like. The Thai installers are usually experienced and competent but may not understand the need to use screened cabling and to route them away from sensitive components and other cable looms in the vehicle which feed those components to prevent induced signals.

Manufactures warrant their vehicles to the build standard and any subsequent modifications not endorsed by the manufacturer can render the warranty invalid.

If the ABS 'glitched' in may have been affected by a strong external RF source (Radio transmitter including cellphone relays) or intereference from within the vehicle.

[stingray]

I had a simular problem with a 1998 Toyota Corona, back in the year 2001. When i disconnected the ABS Computer, the brakes worked fine. Because it was a older car i keep disconnected the ABS Computer. Never had a problem again.

[Farma]

Although not Toyota, this may be on interest.

Chrysler recalls nearly 300,000 SUVs

September 15, 2007 06:14am

Chrysler LLC said today it would recall nearly 300,000 sport utility vehicles to address potential braking problems while driving uphill.

The recall involves more than 156,000 Jeep Grand Cherokees and Commander SUVs from the 2006-2007 model years, more than 90,000 2007 Jeep Wrangler SUVs and nearly 50,000 2007 Dodge Nitro SUVs.

Chrysler spokesman Max Gates said the company had received about 20 complaints of vehicles experiencing a delay in braking when drivers tried to come to a stop after driving uphill. To fix the problem, the computer connected to the anti-lock brake system will be reprogrammed.

There has been one crash tied to the issue and no injuries reported, Gates said. Owners will be notified by mail beginning later this month.

Continued here http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0...5003402,00.html

[baabaabobo]

But this sort of recall would not happen here - too much loss of face involved.

[batami]

Um a very interesting topic.... now I know what the strange braking (or lack of) was on my 2007 Vigo a couple of weeks back

Only happened once, low speed, country lane, so there was no danger - and i thought it was ABS kicking in when it didn't need to, but it had the absolutely no braking feel about it. Released the brakes rolled on a bit, and because i was going slow, reapplied the brakes and stopped. No reoccurance and put it down to a strange "ABS like but not" sensation. But the symptoms were the same.

Now, what the hel_l do i do? This has got me a tad worried. Thinks i will go to my local Toyopta dealler again and see where i go from there. This problem does seem like a candidate for recall - but it will not!

Thanks to the OP for posting (And updating us) - a very valuable post

[batami]

A PS to my recent post --

has anyone had experience of fitting exhaust brakes (http://bankspower.com/why_add_exhaust_brake.cfm) to a Vigo or a similar vehicle in thailand??

[mikethevigoman]

Going to work today on this sunny and dry day I got scared ***less! My Toyota Fortuner 3.0V is now 9 months old (11,000 km), and this far it has been satisfying in every way (except for the already well known 'don't go faster than 80 through a curve' issue).

However, this morning I was driving from Phuket Town to my work in Patong. Car all fine as usual... coming over the hill and then down towards Patong I hit traffic which flowed at 10-15 km/h. Just before one of the turns I applied the brake very softly and not hard or quickly... not to stop, just preparing for the curve. To my great suprise there was no brakes!!! The pedal shook so hard that my whole leg shook together with a terrible shreeking sound. Through my leg it felt like the pedal just hit metal or something... not the usual soft feeling, but regardless, there was no breaking power what so ever. Luckily I was going slow so the handbrake could handle it, but had I gone above 50 km/h i would have jetted right off the hillside. I pulled over and stopped, using the handbrake. No warning lights were lit so I went out to look and to smell. Nothing, and no smell at all! I then put my hazard lights on and tried slowly to drive on the side and the brakes seemed to work fine again. This happened one more time but on flat ground on 2nd Road but then it just seemed to work fine again so eventually I got to work.

Later two mechanics from Pearl Toyota showed up at work. Me and some of our Thai staff explained to them what had happened. They then took the car for a ride, but when they came back they said nothing was wrong. However, they tried to say that it must have been the ABS system. I told them I have always driven new and good cars for more than 20 years without any incident and I know how the ABS works and feels like. And I stressed again that the brake power was completely gone/lost. They agreed to take it to the workshop to "have a look", and hopefully i will hear something tomorrow.

The problem with this is that if they dont find any problem IF they really dive in to it, I will be scared of the car. I know what happened, and I know it was not the ABS. The brakes were GONE! This is like when you have something that does not work and you send it for repairs but they can not find anything so you get it back, but then the problem happens again. Unless they find a problem and can identify the reason, I will always have this incident in the back of my mind, and driving the car will not be a pleasure at all.

Has anyone experienced anything similar? Or, can anyone maybe enlighten me to what is wrong? Because whatever the find is or not, something serious MUST be wrong!

Sounds to me like a servo related probem, like it lost all vacuum,press the pedal hard and see if it goes to the floor there is a leak and have it changed,.

[mikethevigoman]

Um a very interesting topic.... now I know what the strange braking (or lack of) was on my 2007 Vigo a couple of weeks back

Only happened once, low speed, country lane, so there was no danger - and i thought it was ABS kicking in when it didn't need to, but it had the absolutely no braking feel about it. Released the brakes rolled on a bit, and because i was going slow, reapplied the brakes and stopped. No reoccurance and put it down to a strange "ABS like but not" sensation. But the symptoms were the same.

Now, what the hel_l do i do? This has got me a tad worried. Thinks i will go to my local Toyopta dealler again and see where i go from there. This problem does seem like a candidate for recall - but it will not!

Thanks to the OP for posting (And updating us) - a very valuable post

I have always thought the vigo is " under servoed " ie,too small,.many times i have stopped only to feel the servo has exhausted it self, it can also give the impression of feeling like a rough transmission and leaping forward when going from drive to neutral ( in auto ) anyone else experienced that ? .after saying that i had to do an emergency stop on sukomvit and luckily for me and the motorcyclist the brakes performed well, but there is a design fault somewhere,more pronounced at low speed which again makes me feel like its when the servo isnt fully charged ,.

[cocoy]

its amazing how much we rely on new technology these days.. and how more and more people are really forgetting how to drive.... this is my opinion.. but i just feel its really still up to the driver and how he drives that will save your life.. now if everyone can drive as they ought to... dnt you think it will be safer overall... but this is earth. i guess its all a dream....

Edited September 17, 2007 by cocoy

[Far Angst]

its amazing how much we rely on new technology these days.. and how more and more people are really forgetting how to drive.... this is my opinion.. but i just feel its really still up to the driver and how he drives that will save your life.. now if everyone can drive as they ought to... dnt you think it will be safer overall... but this is earth. i guess its all a dream....

Anyone driving a new car is relying on new technology. And occasionally a driver driving as he ought to drive needs to stop driving. He then applies the brakes, at least on this Earth. At this point in time the driver driving as he ought to drive has the right to expect the brakes to work as they ought to work and stop the car. The driver should be able to rely on the brake technology. In Toyota's case the driver can't rely on the Toyota technology. No matter how well the driver drives there's a definite possibility of faulty Toyota brake technology being the cause of ending the Careful Driver's existence on this Earth.

[Edorf]

Finally, I received the report from Toyota Bangkok. No surprises there... they did not find any problems. However, a few people have told me that the reason for Toyota not notifiying me when promised after having run the diagnostics so I could pick up the car in the late afternoon, and then making an excuse so they could keep it overnight, was that more than most likely the ABS computer has been changed even though they say nothing wrong was found. I dont know... this does not help me much as it basically is hearsay.

For those of you that are still interested, I am trying to copy in the report from Toyota below.(I have never done this before so I hope it works)

Oh, by the way, to the comment about the stereo system: the system was installed AFTER the incident.

I guess this is it! Nothing more to do! I have however notified the right people and hereby also you, that in case you see a Fortuner in a big accident where it seems that no brakes were used and the first thought is that the driver must have lost his mind, it is actually the car that lost its brakes. I hope I will be able to enjoy the USD 5,000,000 health and life insurance I have if anything should happen, but rather not!!!

Thanks for all supporting comments and for trying to help shed lights on what could be wrong. All the best!

Edited September 19, 2007 by Edorf

[Edorf]

I am sorry for bringing up this old topic but I just had an experience in Bangkok: I was having a dinner/party night at that American Steak House at the Amari Watergate in Bankok. In the bar I got talking/drinking with three gentlemen in their 40-50's (all suits and "corporate" looking). After some time (and some drinks) one of them told me that they worked for Toyota, and because of that I started to tell them my brake/ABS "story". WHen I was done, one of the men (quite tipsy, if not more) said that "this is something they know about and that all Fortuners coming in for check up due to complaints in regards to ABS/brake issues are getting a new computer installed, but this is kept confidential. I said I could not believe that was true, but then he pulled out his business card holder and surely inside, the cards had the Toyota logo. As he was going to hand me one of his cards, his two friends grabbed his hand with the business card holder and said this was not a good idea. They said "sorry, we have had enough to drink", paid up (for me as well), and left.

To all of you reading this I understand that this is just another third-party unconfirmed story, but to me it was real, even though it does not solve anything. However, my question is: is there a way to find out if the ABS computer (or any other computer whatever its name is) has really been changed for a new one? Does any of you know?

[pattayapip]

I am sorry for bringing up this old topic but I just had an experience in Bangkok: I was having a dinner/party night at that American Steak House at the Amari Watergate in Bankok. In the bar I got talking/drinking with three gentlemen in their 40-50's (all suits and "corporate" looking). After some time (and some drinks) one of them told me that they worked for Toyota, and because of that I started to tell them my brake/ABS "story". WHen I was done, one of the men (quite tipsy, if not more) said that "this is something they know about and that all Fortuners coming in for check up due to complaints in regards to ABS/brake issues are getting a new computer installed, but this is kept confidential. I said I could not believe that was true, but then he pulled out his business card holder and surely inside, the cards had the Toyota logo. As he was going to hand me one of his cards, his two friends grabbed his hand with the business card holder and said this was not a good idea. They said "sorry, we have had enough to drink", paid up (for me as well), and left.

To all of you reading this I understand that this is just another third-party unconfirmed story, but to me it was real, even though it does not solve anything. However, my question is: is there a way to find out if the ABS computer (or any other computer whatever its name is) has really been changed for a new one? Does any of you know?

I dont know how you would check, as i am sure they would say it has even if it has not, but when i took my Fortuner for its service, i asked them to check the brakes (only after reading this thread) just to be on the safe side, nothing has ever happened to me, but thought if there were improvements to be had i wanted them !! Long story short, Kept the car for ages after the service for another Brake Team to look at!! Heard they fitted an uprated Master Cylinder/servo? anyway, they did something So just take it in and complain about the brakes to your local Toyota Garage, they will fit whatever there is to be fitted! Is your Fortuner a 2004/5 Model? only asking as thought this problem has been overcome on the later models?

Cheers

Edited November 4, 2007 by pattayapip