No More Dependent Extension Of Stay If The Host Foreigner Has A Retirement Extension Of Stay Permit

[dsfbrit]

Like most 53 year olds, I am still 'young' enough to battle against this kind of change, both now and in the foreseeable future. However, it is obvious to me that in 20 or 30 years time or after a serious illness I would probably not have the energy for the fight.

What then?. Unable to get a renewed visa extension at the age of 80, where would I go ? What would I do ? So over the next few years I have decided to limit any more investment in Thailand. I will live happily in my house with my Thai wife, but will not spend any money on the house beyond paint etc... for maintenance. Will not renew my car etc... I will simply enjoy all that I currently have.

I will then actively look into a 'Plan B' - for somewhere I can live without the fear of having no home and country during a time when I can do little about it.

During that time Thailand may change for the better on the 'Long Term Visa' front, if not I will have to go somewhere where at the age of 80 I can be relatively sure I will NOT be 'kicked out' on a whim!

In the meantime I will enjoy Thailand to the full - its a great place while you are 'young' fit and healthy!!!

Good luck to any affeced by the new rule - in the long term though you may find it has done you a favour - at least now you can sort something out while you are young enough to do so!!!

Edited September 8, 2007 by dsfbrit

[Naam]

I have friends, (American husband and wife) that have retired here and have contributed to the Thai economy each month to the tune of around 80,000 to 100,000 baht each and every month for several years. Now the Thai government wants to drive these people out??

If thats the case then they will both easily qualify, it doesn't effect that couple at all.

wrong.It should be 130.000 baht each and every month under the "new" law!

if the couple has spent 80-100k every month it shouldn't be a problem to show 800k for each of them in the bank.

100k hum,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,800k - 100k= diff of 700k hum where do you get the extra 7?

it's not a matter of "difference" but how i look at the general financial situation. a couple spending 80-100k a month without having the necessary savings to match the 1.6mm requirement seems highly unlikely to me. but what do i know about other people's finances and spending behaviour?

[Thailand]

it's not a matter of "difference" but how i look at the general financial situation. a couple spending 80-100k a month without having the necessary savings to match the 1.6mm requirement seems highly unlikely to me. but what do i know about other people's finances and spending behaviour?

Ever heard of pensions ?

[Naam]

Ever heard of pensions ?

i heard of pensions... once or twice but it's hard for me to believe that people exist who spend in excess of 3,000 dollars a month and have no savings in the bank. if that is true i can only call it irresponsible. but as is said, what does an alien like me -living a hermit's life- know about earth people and your planet in general?

edited for addendum:

the views and opinions of retired Klingon warriors living on planet Sol3 (commonly known as "Earth") are not necessarily conform with the views and opinions of the Klingon High Council

Edited September 8, 2007 by Dr. Naam

[Bruce1]

I don't think Thais are especially racist or zenophobic in general. I have plenty of Thai friends who aren't. But I do know that a thousand years of fighting for your independence against the Burmese, Cambodians, Japanese and whoever else has created a degree of wariness of people, until they decide they're not a problem. This is particularly obvious in the miitary, which is understandable.

Didn't someone say they thought the measure was probably aimed at stopping Chinese from bringing in whole squads of relatives on a single retirement visa? I can understand that.

Perhaps, rather than going the way they have, they could have required people to prove they have private health insurance, so they don't become a burden on Thai taxpayers? Just a thought.

It takes a person with a fairly broad wordly experience to see foreigners, not as a threat, but as potentially beneficial citizens to be incorporated into the nation and make it stronger.

As for western farangs, lets face it, there are some farangs who make even me cringe with their behaviour, so it's no wonder some Thais look down their noses at them - I feel the same. But my experience is that farangs who demonstrate reasonable behaviour and show a genuine interst in this country and people are treated well, very well in fact. I've had Thais apologizing to me for the difficulties involved in complying with the visa regulations, so not everyone is hostile by any means.

And, on the subject of other countries introducing restrictions on foreigners, I regretfully have to note as an Australian that my own government has just foolishly announced a citizenship test in which (I think from memory) people will be asked any 20 out of 60 possible questions and will have to get at least 12 right (bit vague on the details). Reading the questions, I decided this test was complete rubbish and would not indicate anything to reveal whether a person would make a suitable citizen. How does knowing a bit of history (what year was federation) or similar stuff prove anything about good citizneship potential - all it proves is if you can memorize useless information. Lots of Aussies would probably fail the test. There are plenty of racists in Australia, as in other countries. Fortunately, most people are not especially racist on a personal level I find. We should be able to exchange differing opinions without calling each other racists.

So Thailand certainly doesn't have a monopoly on wariness about foreigners.

Personally, I like lots of things about LOS and would love to stay here, circumstances permitting. So, instead of just whinging, I try to understand why things are they way they are.

[gdhm]

...Perhaps, rather than going the way they have, they could have required people to prove they have private health insurance, so they don't become a burden on Thai taxpayers? Just a thought...

A perfectly reasonable thought, but bad news for many if implemented. Many countries I know do have this requirement but I am glad Thailand does not.

Firstly medical treatment by many countries standards is very cheap here and many could afford to "self insure". Even if they cannot that does not mean Thailand has to or will treat us so the burden is Thailand's choice not ours.

Judging by my local main public hospital I have to say its frightening (based on 4 family -not for me- visits there over the last year. Overcrowded, understaffed, nurse do not look after patients but relatives do mostly (often feeding them as well) if they do not then the patients are to be honest neglected (unless a thank you please keep an eye on my relative is offered),

My wife visited this hospital the other day complaining of repeated chest pains and severe difficulty in breathing over the last 2 weeks. I expected an ECG maybe X-ray. But all she got was listening to her chest an injection and a "come back if there is a recurrence You seem OK probably just indigestion. We can only do a "body test" for people definitely in a very serious position, if you become serious come here immediately and we will test you".

I wonder how many with warning minor heart attacks or heart irregularities never survived a more serious occurrence. I do not blame the hospital it has insufficient resources and faced with that it has to of course use its resources on the obvious critical conditions first. But what a nightmare on a human level for both patients, families and the doctors and nurses.

I decided to take my wife to a private hospital the next day. They automatically did as I expected a check up, x-ray, ECG, decided that lungs and heart were fine and then went on to suspecting indigestion and her very low blood pressure problems and gave her 3 sets of medication. No real episodes since. Excellent care and attention and total cost 1,122 Baht (painless).

I am NOT saying the public hospital doctor's assessment was incorrect BUT the doctor clearly had insufficient facts to make that assumption until heart and lungs problems had been ruled out (and lets be honest my wife's symptoms were indicating both of these as a serious possibility).

Anyway sorry I have digressed. I am 139 Kilos (much less but still very overweight when I arrived) I cannot get medical insurance from anyone although essentially fit except for weight. Others cannot afford the huge fees often involved as they get older and rate rise significantly. Most Insurance Schemes cease at age 70 (or cannot be instigated after age 65) so no insurance is available for many Retirees anyway, even if fit. Add to that the fact that regretfully most people become less healthy as they get older, many would find they became unacceptable for medical insurance.

Many of us self insure and even if needing some serious treatment operation find it affordable (even if financially painful). A rule requiring medical Insurance would force many of these people out of Thailand.

with regard to no medical insurance being required we must thank Thai Immigration for the option to do so or not. If we do not/ cannot then we must accept we cannot expect Thailand to foot our medical bills as it cannot keep up with its own peoples medical costs.

Regards, Dave

[Martin]

"...with regard to no medical insurance being required we must thank Thai Immigration for the option to do so or not..."

Exactly right, Dave. And, speaking for myself, it is a very big "Thank you".

Medical insurance may have something to be said for it for young people, but for us oldies it is just a racket. By the time all pre-existing conditions are ruled out etc, the insurance companies are charging us a premium for which we get miniscule cover. Better, as you say, to self-insure.

[ozzydom]

...I decided to take my wife to a private hospital the next day...

Wish I had found that private hospital you took your wife to Dave, I had three heart attacks last tuesday, 2 nights in AEK hospital in Udon Thani ,including 2 ecg,s one ulta sound and a handful of tablets (one week supply of aspirin etc) cost me 30k.

utra sound (took 5 minutes ) was 5000 baht alone,one night under observation in ICU and one night in on site aparment was only 3,500 baht of the total but on asking for explanation of bulk of bill,all I got was dont know but its there so you have to pay.

And after all the tests they dont know the cause,heart valves working perfectly,no cholesterol etc, so I checked myself out, I prefer to leave this earth with a few bob left for my wife than give it to the overcharging #*^%$# rip off merchants.

[Thailand]

Ever heard of pensions ?

i heard of pensions... once or twice but it's hard for me to believe that people exist who spend in excess of 3,000 dollars a month and have no savings in the bank. if that is true i can only call it irresponsible. but as is said, what does an alien like me -living a hermit's life- know about earth people and your planet in general?

edited for addendum:

the views and opinions of retired Klingon warriors living on planet Sol3 (commonly known as "Earth") are not necessarily conform with the views and opinions of the Klingon High Council

I think we can then safely assume that you are not affected from this potential , or deal done , change in the visa requirements for couples both of foreign origin.

I know of at least two couples who are , and will be drastically affected by this change. They are not young, in excess of 70.

They do have reasonable pensions but insufficient to meet the "doubling up", and having achieved 3 score + they thought that their meagre savings would be sufficient to see out their lives in their chosen country -Thailand. The powers that be feel that will not be the case- very sad, as you can imagine they are distraught and confused.

We are also affected but to a lesser extent and I have made my views felt in other posts.

[samran]

This thread, along with a lot of other threads, is polluted with outrageously racist comments made by xenophobic farang. These comments by racist farang do nothing enhance the reputation of farang amongst ordinary Thais,

Whose countries have racist, xenophobic immigration laws? Whose countries are, without any warning, changing (worsening) overnight their immigration laws applying them immediately even before publishing them in their official gazettes? Whose countries are worsening their immigration laws without grandfathering provisos?

Farangs' or Thais' ?

easy.

The UK. Highly Skilled Migrant Permit (HSMP) applications were turned on their head late in 2006. Programe was shut down for a week, and re-introduced the next week with new requirements. Very little warning. HSMP are the UK versions of greencards.

Previously, once you entered the UK, you only had to prove that you were economically active to extend your visa after the first year. You just had to show that you had a job and were contributing to the taxman. Then, they changed it so that you had to prove at least GBP30K salary to extend your visa. You also had to extend your visa at the three year mark again, under the new criteria.

This caught many many people out, especially those from the sub-continent who were working in skills shortage areas outside of london. Many had moved their families and spent their life savings moving to the UK. They were essentially told, that they probably would have to go home if they weren't earning enough in the eyes of the UK government. Back to india and paksistan you go, penniless. We just had an election, where we ran hard on beating up on 'migrants' you know.

No grandfathering, but a bone was thrown so that they could transfer to work permits, which in the UK are highly restitive and tie you to an employer. Lose the workpermit, and you are out of the country. It also reset the immigration clock. Those on the verge of getting ILR under the old rules found themselves back at square one, having to wait another 5 years for another crack at the ILR.

[TAWP]

One interview and two weeks later my wife got a temporarly residency permit, not a visa, with no restrictions on work or social benefits. After 3 years she could have applied for permanent. Instead we moved here. So yes, there are several western countries that treat married people far better.

Edited September 8, 2007 by TAWP

[Naam]

I know of at least two couples who are , and will be drastically affected by this change. They are not young, in excess of 70.

They do have reasonable pensions but insufficient to meet the "doubling up", and having achieved 3 score + they thought that their meagre savings would be sufficient to see out their lives in their chosen country -Thailand. The powers that be feel that will not be the case- very sad, as you can imagine they are distraught and confused.

Thailand, i admit that unfortunately a number of individuals will be affected and hit hard. but i referred in my posting to a specific given example namely "couple spending since years 80-100,000 Baht a month". i just can't imagine that this couple who spends that kind of money has no savings at all to fall back in case of an emergency.

[Naam]

with regard to no medical insurance being required we must thank Thai Immigration for the option to do so or not.

an aspect which is always overlooked by the crowd shouting "let's go to Malaysia".

[retiredusn]

I know of at least two couples who are , and will be drastically affected by this change. They are not young, in excess of 70.

They do have reasonable pensions but insufficient to meet the "doubling up", and having achieved 3 score + they thought that their meagre savings would be sufficient to see out their lives in their chosen country -Thailand. The powers that be feel that will not be the case- very sad, as you can imagine they are distraught and confused.

Thailand, i admit that unfortunately a number of individuals will be affected and hit hard. but i referred in my posting to a specific given example namely "couple spending since years 80-100,000 Baht a month". i just can't imagine that this couple who spends that kind of money has no savings at all to fall back in case of an emergency.

It is not the matter of having the money to fall back on, it is if you put that kind of money in a closed account this time how much will it be the day after today??????If the powers to be can jack up the visa's and or change THEIR policy now the only question left is WHEN WILL IT HAPPEN NEXT? and not only to retirees but to everyone.Now let it rest and lets all see together what happens next.

[Bruce1]

I suppose they figure if they make people keep 800,000 in a bank account readily available they can afford to pay for health expenses, which is probably right.

[gdhm]

Wish I had found that private hospital you took your wife to Dave, I had three heart attacks last tuesday, 2 nights in AEK hospital in Udon Thani ,including 2 ecg,s one ulta sound and a handful of tablets (one week supply of aspirin etc) cost me 30k.

utra sound (took 5 minutes ) was 5000 baht alone,one night under observation in ICU and one night in on site aparment was only 3,500 baht of the total but on asking for explanation of bulk of bill,all I got was dont know but its there so you have to pay.

And after all the tests they dont know the cause,heart valves working perfectly,no cholesterol etc, so I checked myself out, I prefer to leave this earth with a few bob left for my wife than give it to the overcharging #*^%$# rip off merchants.

Hope you have no further problems ozzydom.

The hospital I took my wife to was the KhonKaen Ram Hospital which seems very respected by Thai people in the city I have spoken to about it. We were only in the outpatients section but it was welcoming, spotless and seemed very hygienic. We were not left more than a few minutes on any occasion and were in and out in around 1.5 hours.

They have a website in English as well as Thai http://www.khonkaenram.com/.

The English one is less comprehensive but you get an idea of room costs (VIP room, single , 2 sharing , 4 sharing, ICU etc.cost of food, attending nurses. etc. etc. The Thai pages are more informative on pricing.

My wife being used to Thai low income thought 1122 baht was, quote "very expensive" bless her. I knew compared to private hospitals in UK and Spain it was a dream. Better not take my wife to the UK as the prices there would shock her and most Thais into a coma - well maybe not Thaksin .

Regards, Dave

[Jingthing]

with regard to no medical insurance being required we must thank Thai Immigration for the option to do so or not.

an aspect which is always overlooked by the crowd shouting "let's go to Malaysia".

Good point. However, let us be precise. Malaysia does not require that you have it. It requires you to APPLY for it. If you are denied and can prove it, you have met the requirement.

[Penkoprod]

Good point. However, let us be precise. Malaysia does not require that you have it. It requires you to APPLY for it. If you are denied and can prove it, you have met the requirement.

And, from what i have heard it needn't be an "all singing, all dancing" policy

Just a basic one will suffice

Penkoprod

[Naam]

with regard to no medical insurance being required we must thank Thai Immigration for the option to do so or not.

an aspect which is always overlooked by the crowd shouting "let's go to Malaysia".

Good point. However, let us be precise. Malaysia does not require that you have it. It requires you to APPLY for it. If you are denied and can prove it, you have met the requirement.

= incorrect information. before deciding on Thailand i did my homework on Malaysia and spent a whole week in Kuala Lumpur. it turned out that (after some hesitation) our private european first class health insurance would have been accepted. but health insurance is mandatory to qualify for "Malaysia my second home". there is also no denial as Malaysia has a bunch of government subsidised private health insurance companies. the only hurdle is whether retirees can afford to pay the premium. unfortunately i have no information about the cost of a local insurance because it was irrelevant for us.

[Jingthing]

with regard to no medical insurance being required we must thank Thai Immigration for the option to do so or not.

an aspect which is always overlooked by the crowd shouting "let's go to Malaysia".

Good point. However, let us be precise. Malaysia does not require that you have it. It requires you to APPLY for it. If you are denied and can prove it, you have met the requirement.

= incorrect information. before deciding on Thailand i did my homework on Malaysia and spent a whole week in Kuala Lumpur. it turned out that (after some hesitation) our private european first class health insurance would have been accepted. but health insurance is mandatory to qualify for "Malaysia my second home". there is also no denial as Malaysia has a bunch of government subsidised private health insurance companies. the only hurdle is whether retirees can afford to pay the premium. unfortunately i have no information about the cost of a local insurance because it was irrelevant for us.

I also looked into to it and found the denial OK policy clear. I will defer to your more extensive research or maybe they changed their policy. Could happen anywhere, eh?

This site says if you are denied because of old age (no company would take you) it is still OK:

http://www.penang-property.com/realestate/...ome_program.htm

I suppose if your health is really bad they could deny you the visa in the first place based on health as they do have a health requirement.

Edited September 8, 2007 by Jingthing

[Naam]

I know of at least two couples who are , and will be drastically affected by this change. They are not young, in excess of 70.

They do have reasonable pensions but insufficient to meet the "doubling up", and having achieved 3 score + they thought that their meagre savings would be sufficient to see out their lives in their chosen country -Thailand. The powers that be feel that will not be the case- very sad, as you can imagine they are distraught and confused.

Thailand, i admit that unfortunately a number of individuals will be affected and hit hard. but i referred in my posting to a specific given example namely "couple spending since years 80-100,000 Baht a month". i just can't imagine that this couple who spends that kind of money has no savings at all to fall back in case of an emergency.

It is not the matter of having the money to fall back on, it is if you put that kind of money in a closed account this time how much will it be the day after today??????If the powers to be can jack up the visa's and or change THEIR policy now the only question left is WHEN WILL IT HAPPEN NEXT? and not only to retirees but to everyone.Now let it rest and lets all see together what happens next.

are we discussing the future or the present status (which by the way is still not clear)?

moreover, nobody is asked to put the money in a "closed account" as it can be spent and replenished. making these kind of incorrect insinuations is not fair towards those readers of TV looking for information in an already muddy situation.

[Naam]

with regard to no medical insurance being required we must thank Thai Immigration for the option to do so or not.

an aspect which is always overlooked by the crowd shouting "let's go to Malaysia".

Good point. However, let us be precise. Malaysia does not require that you have it. It requires you to APPLY for it. If you are denied and can prove it, you have met the requirement.

= incorrect information. before deciding on Thailand i did my homework on Malaysia and spent a whole week in Kuala Lumpur. it turned out that (after some hesitation) our private european first class health insurance would have been accepted. but health insurance is mandatory to qualify for "Malaysia my second home". there is also no denial as Malaysia has a bunch of government subsidised private health insurance companies. the only hurdle is whether retirees can afford to pay the premium. unfortunately i have no information about the cost of a local insurance because it was irrelevant for us.

I also looked into to it and found the denial OK policy clear. I will defer to your more extensive research or maybe they changed their policy. Could happen anywhere, eh?

This site says if you are denied because of old age (no company would take you) it is still OK:

http://www.penang-property.com/realestate/...ome_program.htm

I suppose if your health is really bad they could deny you the visa in the first place based on health as they do have a health requirement.

that's correct. before the visa is issued you have to undergo a medical examination in Malaysia.

[capaotung]

easy.

If it's so easy why haven't you offered several examples of Western countries with very few legal foreigners (and with very little chance to ever get PR and/or citizenship), which change overnight their immigration laws applying them immediately even before publishing them in their official gazettes and with no grandfathering provisos?

All you have offered so far is 1 example of just 1 country for just 1 of the situations listed (no grandfathering). Let's examine it.

The UK. Highly Skilled Migrant Permit (HSMP) applications were turned on their head late in 2006. Programe was shut down for a week, and re-introduced the next week with new requirements. Very little warning. HSMP are the UK versions of greencards.

First of all, HSMP are NOT the UK versions of US green cards. US green cards comprise many categories and HSMP is the equivalent of just ONE of those (EB2).

Qualify "Very little warning". AFAIK there have been many talks about that new points-based assessment (which is what they have finally done in NOV 2006 and which is most probably what you are referring to).

Previously, once you entered the UK, you only had to prove that you were economically active to extend your visa after the first year. You just had to show that you had a job and were contributing to the taxman. Then, they changed it so that you had to prove at least GBP30K salary to extend your visa. You also had to extend your visa at the three year mark again, under the new criteria.

AFAIK this is just plain FALSE. Income is just ONE of the categories which the points-based assessment consider.

Can you point out to me any source stating this new min GBP 30k salary?

This caught many many people out, especially those from the sub-continent who were working in skills shortage areas outside of london. Many had moved their families and spent their life savings moving to the UK. They were essentially told, that they probably would have to go home if they weren't earning enough in the eyes of the UK government. Back to india and paksistan you go, penniless.

HSMP differs from the UK work permit scheme as it does not require an employer to obtain a permit for the individual. It is also different from the existing UK business routes (e.g. the Innovators scheme or other business categories), in that it does not require a detailed business plan or investment in the UK.

All of the ones affected can switch to any other category of work/business visas and they do have "grace periods" to allow for the switch.

We just had an election, where we ran hard on beating up on 'migrants' you know.

How many (millions) LEGAL migrants has the UK and how many (tens of thousands) has Thailand?

How many of those LEGAL migrants in the UK are poorer than the average Brit and how many of those LEGAL migrants in Thailand are poorer than the average Thai?

I understand the UK has roughly the same size as Thailand and, contrary to Thailand, is a welfare state. A bit of perspective is always useful.

No grandfathering, but a bone was thrown so that they could transfer to work permits, which in the UK are highly restitive and tie you to an employer. Lose the workpermit, and you are out of the country. It also reset the immigration clock. Those on the verge of getting ILR under the old rules found themselves back at square one, having to wait another 5 years for another crack at the ILR.

Firstly, Highly Skilled Migrants are able to amalgamate continuous time spent in the UK as a work permit holder, Highly Skilled Migrant and/or an Innovator when applying for indefinite leave to remain as a Highly Skilled Migrant. Secondly, I think you are confusing the UK with Thailand where:

1. work permits ARE highly restrictive (in the UK you can do even another part time job besides the one you have the WP for, you are not limited to a specific place of work which must be stated on the WP and your WP and the accompayning leave to remain can be stipulated for as long as 5 years at a time)

2. WPs DO tie you to an employer (in the UK you can change job and not reapply for a new WP if it's for the same job and just another employer)

3. lose the work permit and you ARE out of the country in 7 days (in the UK you can, under certain conditions, stay for the remaining duration of your original leave to remain while reapplying for another WP)

. It also reset the immigration clock. Those on the verge of getting ILR under the old rules found themselves back at square one, having to wait another 5 years for another crack at the ILR.

AFAIK you don't have to stay in the UK for 5 years on the same original WP and besides, ILR (PR) is anyway granted after 10 years as a legal resident (with or without WP, combining time working and not working etc) or even after 14 years as a combination of ILLEGAL and legal residency in the United Kingdom!

----------

Now, all that said (which shows how the situation in the UK is all but the same as that in Thailand): that NOV 2006 change IS unfair despite the many concessions for those already in the system.

A grand total of about 49,000 people have used the HSMP and a small fraction of those are at risk of being forced to go back home but notwithstanding all of this you can easily find the description of their plight in the mainstream UK media starting with the BBC and...

...The joint Commons and Lords Human Rights Committee said changes last year to the Highly Skilled Migrants Programme breached human rights: "This was a clear breach of the right to respect for home and family life contained in Article 8 of European Convention of Human Rights." And the report continued: "The changes to the rules are so clearly incompatible with Article 8, and so contrary to basic notions of fairness, that the case for immediately revisiting the changes to the rules in Parliament is in our view overwhelming."

Exactly like now in Thailand, right?

Edited September 8, 2007 by capaotung

[beechguy]

Point #3 by capoatung isn't quite accurate. You do not neccessarily have to leave the country just because your work permit is canceled. It depends on your visa and reason for extension of stay.

No comment on the rest of the stuff, At this point, appears to me that a number of people

have blown things out of porpotion and strayed way off topic.

From the original title, they are talking about "extensions of stay" not visas. Correct?

[capaotung]

Point #3 by capoatung isn't quite accurate. You do not neccessarily have to leave the country just because your work permit is canceled. It depends on your visa and reason for extension of stay.

It was plainly obvious that the subject was people being in the country (the UK or Thailand) on a "working visa".

BTW, in the UK if you are not in the country solely thanks to you having a job there, you NEVER have to leave the country when you change/lose your job. What happens in Thailand when you are on a non-IMM O e.g. as a husband of a Thai citizen and your extension of stay is based on you having a job? Does the 7 days rule apply? Can you remain in Thailand looking for another job? For how long?

No comment on the rest of the stuff, At this point, appears to me that a number of people

have blown things out of porpotion

I don't think so, especially if you are one of those affected or worried that the same kind of sudden unfair treatment may soon befall on you...

and strayed way off topic.

The possible reasons for this change and the manner and conditions in which this change has been applied and (NOT) announced are OT now..?

Edited September 8, 2007 by capaotung

[samran]

capatong, you are right, it is more complex than i stated, but who is going to read it? I was trying to summarise the key issues succintly. But you are right: Education, income, age, UK sourced income and one or two other things in the consideration of the extension.

Just for your knowledge, I am a HSMP holder, but now based in Thailand so I've been following it.

As for the minimum 30K requirement, it isn't the be-all and end all, but if you are 30 years of age +, 'only' have a bachelors degree (which under UK NARIC equivelency rules many masters degrees from the subcontinent are counted as bachelors), the 30K is pretty much the minimum income that is required to get an extension. This has screwed over quite a few non-london based HSMP holders.

http://www.workpermit.com/uk/hsmp_extension_calculator.htm

Apart from the ones I mentioned, it also screwed over those who came over and due to the vageries of the UK job market, were forced to go back to square one in the career, which they were quite happy to do, and start a new life. As someone who moved to the UK, when I first arrived the recruiters/HR line you heard the most was "but you don't have any London experience (so we'll only pay you the minimum)". Many people were happy to do this, as it gave them a chance at a new life in the UK for their families (typical migrant expereince) and under the old rules, it was perfectly fine to do that. Now they have been told to leave, and in some cases, the work permit option doesn't really suit, as people were holding down a number of part time jobs while they re-established themselves in the UK. Migration is never easy, and many people have to restart the careers at the bottom of the ladder, but happily do so for the sake of their families. And now, quite a few have been denied that right.

Anyhoo, you are right that the joint house of lords/commons commission said what they said. The only thing has been that the home office has refused to budge on the issue. There is a test case going to the high court, as to whether the changes were in fact legal with no grandfathering, and I and many are waiting to see if it gets recinded. For me, I was hoping to split my consulting work between the UK and here - entirley possible under the old system - but more difficult now, but now that is up in the air.

As for the resetting of the ILR clock, I stand by my statment. Those on a HSMP and then get shunted to a work permit have their clocks reset. I don't quite understand why, but for those who go from the WP to a HSMP don't suffer the same problem.

As for my views on the Thai immigration rules and these "latest" changes, the fairness of spouses not being able to stay here easily, I'll leave it to your excellent research skills to trawl back through old posts to garner my views.

As for other countries, do they practice discrimantory immigration proceedures? Depends on your views.

[beechguy]

Point #3 by capoatung isn't quite accurate. You do not neccessarily have to leave the country just because your work permit is canceled. It depends on your visa and reason for extension of stay.

It was plainly obvious that the subject was people being in the country (the UK or Thailand) on a "working visa".

BTW, in the UK if you are not in the country solely thanks to you having a job there, you NEVER have to leave the country when you change/lose your job. What happens in Thailand when you are on a non-IMM O e.g. as a husband of a Thai citizen and your extension of stay is based on you having a job? Does the 7 days rule apply? Can you remain in Thailand looking for another job? For how long?

No comment on the rest of the stuff, At this point, appears to me that a number of people

have blown things out of porpotion

I don't think so, especially if you are one of those affected or worried that the same kind of sudden unfair treatment may soon befall on you...

and strayed way off topic.

The possible reasons for this change and the manner and conditions in which this change has been applied and (NOT) announced are OT now..?

I said off topic, because at the top of the page, the title is "no more dependent extension of stay, if the host foreignor has a retirement extension of stay permit as Sep. 1st, 2007". Also, I didn't mean that I thought you were the only person off topic.

As far as my comment about the work permit and leaving the country. Yes, it's possible

for that to cause a problem. But, a person could still have an "O" visa and stay with his wife while looking for work. Even if you did have to leave the country, there is no reason you would have to remain outside of Thailand.

That is also my point about blowing things out of porportion. I do not agree with this rule change! But, I don't think immigration is going to round up all of the dependents for deportation. There may not be any good long term solutions for some, but for almost everyone there are some short term solutions that don't require a family to be split apart.

[capaotung]

capatong, you are right, it is more complex than i stated, but who is going to read it? I was trying to summarise the key issues succintly. But you are right: Education, income, age, UK sourced income and one or two other things in the consideration of the extension.

So you could have just as succintly summarized the issues saying that they have changed the conditions without grandfathering those already in the system (but allowing them "grace periods" and other options anyway).

Instead, you have written many things which simply are not true and which make things appear harsher and harder than they are.

Anyhoo, you are right that the joint house of lords/commons commission said what they said. The only thing has been that the home office has refused to budge on the issue. There is a test case going to the high court, as to whether the changes were in fact legal with no grandfathering, and I and many are waiting to see if it gets recinded.

And that's why you can't compare the situation in Thailand to the UK.

Where are the laws that the Thai govt broke by issuing and applying this new immi change "overnight" and with no grandfathering?

Where are the laws that the Thai govt broke by issuing and applying the new immi changes RE people married to Thai citizens and parents of Thai citizens last year?

Where are the govt high bodies making themselves involved in the matter and publicly and so strongly condemning those new rules and calling for their immediate revisitation?

Where was the attention of the mainstream Thai media last year? Where is today?

As for my views on the Thai immigration rules and these "latest" changes, the fairness of spouses not being able to stay here easily, I'll leave it to your excellent research skills to trawl back through old posts to garner my views.

Done: as for this latest changes it suffices to read this thread, as for the part highlighted in red, you fully support the current rules (yes, I have just "trawled back through old posts to garner your views"). Say it ain't so and I will provide quotes.

As for other countries, do they practice discrimantory immigration proceedures? Depends on your views.

Yes they all do to some extent.

The key points here being to some extent and the fact that many countries (mainly Western ones but also countries as "poor" or "poorer" than Thailand) do let many people immigrate even when it's totally against their interests (economic and others) when humanitarian and other basic human rights issues are involved.

Thailand does not and nobody in Thailand seem to care or fight it.

[capaotung]

As far as my comment about the work permit and leaving the country. Yes, it's possible

for that to cause a problem. But, a person could still have an "O" visa and stay with his wife while looking for work. Even if you did have to leave the country,

In the UK you wouldn't have to leave the country, EVER.

So, since in all of the possible cases covered by my "point 3" Thailand is in some cases EQUAL, in some cases WORSE and in NO cases better than the UK, why have you raised this issue at all?

That is also my point about blowing things out of porportion. I do not agree with this rule change! But, I don't think immigration is going to round up all of the dependents for deportation. There may not be any good long term solutions for some, but for almost everyone there are some short term solutions that don't require a family to be split apart.

I will leave those affected continue to comment on whether things are being blown out of proportion.

And I wonder if you will still think that things are being blown out of proportion if/when you will be affected by the next change...

[beechguy]

As far as my comment about the work permit and leaving the country. Yes, it's possible

for that to cause a problem. But, a person could still have an "O" visa and stay with his wife while looking for work. Even if you did have to leave the country,

In the UK you wouldn't have to leave the country, EVER.

So, since in all of the possible cases covered by my "point 3" Thailand is in some cases EQUAL, in some cases WORSE and in NO cases better than the UK, why have you raised this issue at all?

That is also my point about blowing things out of porportion. I do not agree with this rule change! But, I don't think immigration is going to round up all of the dependents for deportation. There may not be any good long term solutions for some, but for almost everyone there are some short term solutions that don't require a family to be split apart.

I will leave those affected continue to comment on whether things are being blown out of proportion.

And I wonder if you will still think that things are being blown out of proportion if/when you will be affected by the next change...

I already stated that I do not agree with this change. and I have sympathy for anyone that is unfairly treated. I have already been affected by a change concerning business visas and work permit issues. Not happy about it, but I'm working on resolving things now. But, I still do not think Thailand is any worse than any of the other countries I have dealt with. They are not the only ones who change things for the worse.