Another Dowry Question- Please Help

[Phantom200]

This is my first post. I'm a 36 y.o male from the states. I have been living and teaching in Thailand for almost three years. I have been with the same Thai girl for this same period of time. I met her on the internet and then met her in Don Muang soon after touching down.

She is the loveliest girl I've ever met. She is about 30 yo, and comes from Issan (Mahasarakham). I am her first boyfriend. She works for an export company here in Bangkok and gets a very good income (not much less than my teaching income). Often when we go out, she pays for the dinner or the movie. Although she works in Bangkok, she maintains her down-to-earth, soft, kind and warm personality. She is kind to others, always has positive things to say and is willing to drop everything to help you solve a problem. I am the center of her world and she is the center of mine.

I have met her family at least six times. They are rice farmers and seem to be doing well. (Big house, lots of RAI of land, a tractor, a few fat buffalos here and there). The neighbors(relatives) seem to be doing equally well. I've always been treated like family upon every visit. I've never been asked for a single baht also. I enjoy my visits there tremendously.

We decided to get married a few months ago. Before we talked with her parents, we talked about the dowry. She mentioned that 200,000 baht cash and 10 baht gold (~100,000 in gold?) should be fine. I tried to reason with her that this money could be used to help us build a business and buy a house. No use. It was like talking to a wall. I reluctantly agreed and we went to talk to her parents.

The parents were genuinely happy and seemed pleased when she told them about the dowry I was willing to pay. I must admit that I had some mixed feelings at this time but they were generally positive.

They are planning a big wedding with 100+ guests and freeloaders I'm told.

Now I'm wondering if acquiescing was the right thing to do. The wedding is not until January. I've read the other posts on here about Dowry's and Sin Sod. They only succeeded in making me more skeptical. I'm looking for a no-bullshlt answer. What should I pay?

[ColPyat]

Now I'm wondering if acquiescing was the right thing to do. The wedding is not until January. I've read the other posts on here about Dowry's and Sin Sod. They only succeeded in making me more skeptical. I'm looking for a no-bullshlt answer. What should I pay?

There is no fixed rule to apply.

Dowry has a lot to do with face. There are many cases in which dowrie is handed back, there are others where it isn't.

From what you have said about the status of your soon to be, and her family's - then the amount asked for is not out of place at all.

You will get as many opinions on dowry as there are people.

Personally - i don't like the idea of it, especially when cultural shifts have taken place that make the original practicalities of that custom irrelevant. But on the other hand - you can't fight the custom of a whole society, and risk loosing your wife over those arguments.

So, if you can afford it, and there are no warning bells ringing about the motivations of your girlfriend or her family, then just go with it.

[Phantom200]

There is no fixed rule to apply.

Dowry has a lot to do with face. There are many cases in which dowrie is handed back, there are others where it isn't.

From what you have said about the status of your soon to be, and her family's - then the amount asked for is not out of place at all.

You will get as many opinions on dowry as there are people.

Personally - i don't like the idea of it, especially when cultural shifts have taken place that make the original practicalities of that custom irrelevant. But on the other hand - you can't fight the custom of a whole society, and risk loosing your wife over those arguments.

So, if you can afford it, and there are no warning bells ringing about the motivations of your girlfriend or her family, then just go with it.

Well said. Thanks for the advice.

[Riley'sLife]

Phantom, I think every Farang can empathise with your concerns, but, from what you say about your girl and her family, you should pay the Sin Sod of 200,000Bt with a feeling of great pride and pleasure. It will endear you to the hearts of the family and of course to your girl. I am sure that you will receive far more back from your new family than the value of 200,000Bt. I did. It is difficult for us Westerners to get our head around the Sin Sod. I know it was for me. To try and negotiate out of it would cause so much upset, especially to your girl who would feel that you think she is unworthy.

If there was one thing I wish I could change it would be the mistake I made in fighting the idea. I paid reluctantly. I should have paid with a good heart. Your girl, and her family sounds like mine, although they are from the deep south, and with hindsight I know I did wrong. I've been trying to make up for it ever since. If you've never been to a Thai wedding, try to get to one before your own, that way you can see what's involved.

I wish you both every happiness.

[ColPyat]

Well said. Thanks for the advice.

In the end, you will know what is best for you - nobody knows your personal situation better than you (and, if you have closed friends - them as well). Sometimes advice on a particular problem is useful on these internet forums, but especially in personal issues such as how you are going to handle the dowry issue, advice and opinions of complete strangers often tends to confuse, especially when people put their own agendas over your personal life.

I only know from experience that upcountry families with lots of land, and daughters with a good job, do get easily dowries such as the amounts you described.

Don't worry too much about the 100 free loaders as well, that is part of a wedding - the more people come - the more face you and your wife's family have in the village.

A few years ago we had an important family function about ancestor sprits, very poor family, but jeezas, more than 100 people, all <deleted> night loudspeakers, the whole thing lasted nearly three days, and huge face was gained (and very little sleep).

It's worth it.

[Khun Jean]

I paid 200.000 + 5 baht gold. Got it back after the marriage as a 'gift' for starting married live.

That is also part of the custom!

Sometimes left out conveniently.

My wedding party was with about 100 people (in Bangkok). I got more money in envelopes then the amount i paid for the party. We just had a limit on the strong alcohol. One bottle of wiskey per table. The rest was "as much as you can eat/drink'.

Freeloaders should go somewhere else. (I had the party in Bangkok, in a village it is a whole other thing)

Edited September 27, 2007 by Khun Jean

[teacup]

Ok here is my take...

I see this is not only about the sinsot money issue, but subconciously the controls issue as well.

If she really loves you, she will help you get through her family with your concern. If she forces you to do things against your wills, then she is a selfish person and controlling freak. I know you have been together with her for almost 3 yrs, but in reality it’s not “the length” but “the strength" of the relationship that controls the outcome whether you will have a chance of a good marriage or not.

Now she’s showing you who is really controlling this relationship. In actuality she or her family doesn't seem to love/accept you for who you are and what you have or willing to pay. If you go ahead and marry to her, I will bet she or her family will be bossing you around all the time. If you accept her (family included) the way she is, then that is your choice. If you were to marry her and got a divorce, guess who would have control of your financial assets? That's right. It would be her.

So think about it, being controlled and miserable for the rest of your married life? If you have these fears and doubts, it is safe not to go for it yet.

Before you say “I do”, you should really examine the relationship carefully and for what it is and worth - with full acceptance of her or her family for who she is or who they really are - without changing her or them. You wouldn’t want to spend the rest of your life with a woman or her family that wants to change you into her ideal of a perfect partner or their perfect son-in-law. Let them find someone else.

Sometimes it's important to listen to your head as well, not only your heart

[intumult]

By far cheaper than the sum I was asked for (7 figures). Seriously!!

I declined

All boils down to whether or not you are happy but no negotiation sounds a bit harsh to me especially as you are on a teachers wage. On the other hand, family with land, farms etc. Maybe you are onto a good thing.

All the best with the forthcoming marriage.

[whopper]

http://www.stickmanbangkok.com/Reader/reader2172.htm

[Ricardo]

You have agreed a bride-price, with your fiancee & family, but now suddenly want to change the deal ?

Bear in mind the loss-of-face involved, yours hers & the families', if you now change your mind !

Is she suddenly worth 10% less, 20%, 30%, to you ? Of course not ! You have asked her to share her life with you, and to join her family, in the way which her culture expects. Good decision - stick with it, especially now that it is so late, to change your mind.

And remember that, over a lifetime-to-come and with children, the sin-sod is only a trivial amount, of what the decision to marry will end up costing you ! Welcome to the club, and the very best of luck, for your future lives.

[markg]

I went through the same thought process for my recent wedding.

We Westerners just find it a hard concept to grasp.

So - don't grasp the concept. Look at it another way.

They are asking you to pay 200k Baht - what's that, about 5 or 6k US dollars? Ask yourself this - if you were getting married in the west, what would the whole day cost?

It used to be the tradition in the UK that the brides parents paid for the wedding.

It happens to be the culture in Thailand that the bridegroom pays a dowry.

There are great similarities. Someone pays.

Just try looking at it as you paying for the function room, the food and some drinkies.

Dont haggle and annoy your new family for the sake of 5k US dollars. I know that may be a lot of money to you, but over the course of a married lifetime, it isnt really.

[JonnieB]

First, congrats on your happy relationship. I can relate because my first GF here in LOS was also from Maha Sarakham. She was also the sweetest and most loving and easy going (and smart and resourceful) companion a man could every ask for or want. It's a long story but we are still good friends and she is now married and living in Finland and has two kids. In all my hears of living in LOS (almost 10 now), I have met only a few other girls from MS...tons from Khon Keon, Kalisan, and other jangwats near MS but few from MS itself. These other girls have often been much "cruder" and more grasping than my friend from MS and I am just generalizing but I think there is something special with MS girls. (Also funny that though MS is located in the heart of Issan and poor like KK and other the other towns of Issan, you meet very few (almost none in my case) Maha Sarakham girls in the nitelife industry. Maybe this says something about the people from that town...that they don't approve of that way for their girls to make a living...just speculating here.) I often think of going to visit MS and see if I can meet another girl from there

All that being said, B300,000 seems a little steep for an Issan girl. Is she college/uni educated? Was she a virgin when you met her? As you say, you were her first BF so maybe she was. Even if she was, seems to me more like B150000-B200000 would be more appropriate. Remember that Thai's always start high when they are bargaining about money.

Good luck if you do in fact get married.

[backflip]

"She is about 30 yo...I am her first boyfriend."

You also believe in the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, and the Tooth Fairy.

[FarangNoi21]

"She is about 30 yo...I am her first boyfriend."

You also believe in the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, and the Tooth Fairy.

Its unlikely but not impossible. if she is unattractive in the eyes of Thais men and intelligent at the same time, its possible that she has fought off undesirable men and led a celibate single life to the age of 30. Unlikely, but not impossible. Ive met several Thai girls who are virgins in their mid twenties and haven't had a serious boyfriend. I will admit that 30 is kind of pushing it in believability though. However, several of my girl friends close friends who I have known for 3 years+ and I have never seen them with a boyfriend.

Edited September 28, 2007 by FarangNoi21

[britmaveric]

Sin Sot is for show - you should receive it all back, except for the gold. If you don't then well you know what sort of family you are marrying into.

[naka]

She's 30 already ... Much too old to be asking for Sin Sot !

Naka.

[Maigo6]

She's 30 already ... Much too old to be asking for Sin Sot !

Naka.

Hehe....

[Maigo6]

The parents were genuinely happy and seemed pleased when she told them about the dowry I was willing to pay.

Willing to pay ?

[Phantom200]

First, congrats on your happy relationship. I can relate because my first GF here in LOS was also from Maha Sarakham. She was also the sweetest and most loving and easy going (and smart and resourceful) companion a man could every ask for or want. It's a long story but we are still good friends and she is now married and living in Finland and has two kids. In all my hears of living in LOS (almost 10 now), I have met only a few other girls from MS...tons from Khon Keon, Kalisan, and other jangwats near MS but few from MS itself. These other girls have often been much "cruder" and more grasping than my friend from MS and I am just generalizing but I think there is something special with MS girls. (Also funny that though MS is located in the heart of Issan and poor like KK and other the other towns of Issan, you meet very few (almost none in my case) Maha Sarakham girls in the nitelife industry. Maybe this says something about the people from that town...that they don't approve of that way for their girls to make a living...just speculating here.) I often think of going to visit MS and see if I can meet another girl from there

All that being said, B300,000 seems a little steep for an Issan girl. Is she college/uni educated? Was she a virgin when you met her? As you say, you were her first BF so maybe she was. Even if she was, seems to me more like B150000-B200000 would be more appropriate. Remember that Thai's always start high when they are bargaining about money.

Good luck if you do in fact get married.

Thanks for the kind words. To answer your questions: Yes and Yes.

[Phantom200]

The parents were genuinely happy and seemed pleased when she told them about the dowry I was willing to pay.

Willing to pay ?

Good catch. Should be "...I agreed to pay".

[Heng]

One way you can phrase it from your side is "how much should we show and how much should we consider a wedding gift to your family?"

[Fun2Fun]

Forget about the money and simply take pleasure in the joy you bring to your bride by giving her the party and wedding day she probably have dreamed about since being a little girl.

[Maigo6]

Forget about the money and simply take pleasure in the joy you bring to your bride by giving her the party and wedding day she probably have dreamed about since being a little girl.

300,000 Baht isn't a lot of money to make someone you love happy.

All depends on your financial situation I guess.

Edited September 28, 2007 by Maigo6

[torrenova]

Why does this question always bring out the "it would cost more back home" story ? You are not "back home" and back home you may pay for a wedding though traditionally her parents would do that but you would not be "buying" a bride.

Then we come to the tradition. Again, out from the woodwork crawls the "well, it is tradition, keep face, blah, blah etc." crowd. Well let me remind you of one thing. You are not Thai. Your tradition is that her parents pony up for the whole thing and you pay for the honeymoon as well as the rings. Aks them about that if you want, to retain tradition.

Now I'll get jumped on by those who "know" more or have lived here longer etc. but I retain a grasp of reality.

You state that you are an english teacher and her salary is not much less than yours. May I suggest then that some of these commentators proposing you pay up etc. are earning far more than you or are retired with a lifetime of assets behind them. They are not 36 years old and earning english teacher salaries. Therefore, whatever you pay should be relative to your income not just their perception of her perceived status.

You have not negotiated and thus have not done the traditional thing. Usually a mediator would be involved if you do not speak fluent Thai. As for their requests, I believe the gold element is far too high, particularly in view of the cash sum being asked.

You have not stated whether the cash will be returned nor whether all the gold is for your future wife ? Reading between the lines and from your girlfriend's "talking to a wall" stubbornance, I hazard a guess that it will not be returned as she had the opportunity to tell you there and then whether it was only for show. The gold obviously is near cash, not cash, in economic terms.

I have no doubt that you love this girl and it seems as though she loves you but she is not being fair and neither are her family. I would play the "it will take a very long time to save such a large sum" card as a means of re-entering the negotiating phase. I would take a non connected trusted Thai with you if you have one.

I am well noted for arguing that for many Thais, the benefits of marrying into a western family will actually improve their income and wealth and as such, sinsot is an outdated final grasp at cash. I am also not prepared to accept that they, the Thai family, must not bend as they are marrying outside their culture as well. If they do not understand this, you have a serious problem.

For all the "pay up and shut up" briigade who think they are more Thai than the Thais themselves I suggest you take a long reality check. Just what is this girl bringing to the table ? He cannot own their land, she is not going to earn $100k a year, she is old by Thai standards (and the parents should be happy to get her off their back) and they are asking for what may amount to approximately one year's earnings for an english teacher at the lower levels. Would you give over one year's earnings ? Like hel_l would you.

[Maigo6]

Would you give over one year's earnings ? Like hel_l would you.

It's a done deal, the OP has agreed to pay.

Again, it's all down to your own personal financial situation, some people have a lot of money and 300,000 Baht is nothing to those people, others are struggling by and don't have that type of money to throw around.

My way of thinking is this, if you can't afford a measley 300,000 Baht, what are you doing getting married in the first place, you expect your prospective wife to be attracted by the prospect of living in poverty ?

And if 300,000 is a years Salary to a Teacher, then what do you do if she wants children, you can't afford to have them, think about it!!!

Shall we have a whip round for the OP, 300 people, 1000 Baht each ?

[JonnyF]

Would you give over one year's earnings ? Like hel_l would you.

It's a done deal, the OP has agreed to pay.

Again, it's all down to your own personal financial situation, some people have a lot of money and 300,000 Baht is nothing to those people, others are struggling by and don't have that type of money to throw around.

My way of thinking is this, if you can't afford a measley 300,000 Baht, what are you doing getting married in the first place, you expect your prospective wife to be attracted by the prospect of living in poverty ?

And if 300,000 is a years Salary to a Teacher, then what do you do if she wants children, you can't afford to have them, think about it!!!

Shall we have a whip round for the OP, 300 people, 1000 Baht each ?

If you needed more than 300,000 baht a year to afford children then you wouldn't be seeing too many Thai children around seeing as the average monthly wage is around 8000 baht and many live on a great deal less.

I agree that he has agreed to pay so he really has to cough up now. It's not a massive amount, although I also feel that the westerners culture tends to be ignored in these types of debates even though 2 cultures are supposed to be merging into one. I wonder if they were getting married in the West whether the Thai family would happily pay for the wedding and honeymoon, whilst agreeing to waive the dowry altogether? My guess is no.

[Awk]

Would you give over one year's earnings ? Like hel_l would you.

My way of thinking is this, if you can't afford a measley 300,000 Baht, what are you doing getting married in the first place, you expect your prospective wife to be attracted by the prospect of living in poverty ?

And if 300,000 is a years Salary to a Teacher, then what do you do if she wants children, you can't afford to have them, think about it!!!

Angeleyes, that's five times the salary you get working fulltime at 7-11. Measley?

Postings like that make me wonder whether some people have any idea at all what they are talking about.

Torrenova has imo the most brilliant idea, saying it will take "a very long time" for the op to save up that amount of

money. After looking at his finances, noway will he be able to do it this year, but maybe in 4-5 years ...

I am curious as to how the bride in question would respond to that.

[Maigo6]

Angeleyes, that's five times the salary you get working fulltime at 7-11. Measley?

Postings like that make me wonder whether some people have any idea at all what they are talking about.

Torrenova has imo the most brilliant idea, saying it will take "a very long time" for the op to save up that amount of

money. After looking at his finances, noway will he be able to do it this year, but maybe in 4-5 years ...

I am curious as to how the bride in question would respond to that.

If I was the Bride I'd dump him in a heartbeat and look elsewhere.

[Cobalt60]

Maigo...... you old romantic !!! :D

[Maigo6]

Maigo...... you old romantic !!! :D

Stands to reason, she's 30 already, 5 years time he may well dump her for a younger model, then what.

She has to strike the lethal blow while she still can, time stands still for no man, or woman!!

Go girl...get that 300K