False Friends And Similarities

[sutnyod]

Hi,

I am a bit interested in false friends and (think I) found some:

Kampong in Khmer is river, while in Bahasa Indonesia it is village.

And is 'kodang', which means warehouse in both Thai and Indonesien really of the same origin or is it coincidence?

Anybody else who noticed those things?

[soundman]

Godown or kodang is an almost universal word for a warehouse / storage shed.

[DavidHouston]

The answer to the "godown" question is a decided, "Yes."

A glace at the Matichon dictionary for โกดัง shows that the definition is "warehouse." The interesting fact is that this dictionary shows that the origin is English and the word in English is "godown". So, on to Webster's Unabridged dictionary on the web:

Main Entry: go·down

Function: noun

Inflected Form(s): -s

Etymology: Malay gudang

: a warehouse or storeroom in an oriental country <traders whose godowns were crammed with United States goods ... have no way of replenishing their stocks -- Time> <the godowns in which were stored the families' food supplies -- Christine Weston>

And, note, the source is Malay, which is an Indonesian language, or vice versa. I always thought that the origin was Chinese; but that may be true. I do not have a Malay dictionary. Can anyone answer the question of the origin of "gudang" in Malay?

[DavidHouston]

* * * * *

And, note, the source is Malay, which is an Indonesian language, or vice versa. I always thought that the origin was Chinese; but that may be true. I do not have a Malay dictionary. Can anyone answer the question of the origin of "gudang" in Malay?

This is from http://www.sil.si.edu/expeditions/1926/Jou...ergNotesAll.cfm

The Anglo-Indian term “godown,” meaning “warehouse, storage place,” may be derived from Malay gudang “store-room, warehouse.” See Henry Yule’s Hobson-Jobson: A glossary of colloquial Anglo-Indian words and phrases, and of kindred terms, etymological, historical, geographical and discursive (Delhi: Munshiram Manoharlal, 1903), entry under “Godown” (p. 381-2).

[wasabi]

I have never heard the term "False friends" I thought it meant like a phony. I looked it up and see it's a word with two definitions. ###### I was confused.

Edited October 3, 2007 by wasabi

[qualtrough]

I have never heard the term "False friends" I thought it meant like a phony. I looked it up and see it's a word with two definitions. ###### I was confused.

The more technical term for this is 'false cognates'. Lots of them in French and English that can trip you up. In French they are known as, as you would expect, faux amis. Every year there are tourists who try to check into the Hotel de Ville...

[sutnyod]

Wow, what does 'go down' have to do with a warehouse? I would have never thought that!

Also, virtually stumbled over another one today: Sala (snakefruit) is Sala in both Indonesian and Thai. Any other languages where it is Sala?

[mangkorn]

Wow, what does 'go down' have to do with a warehouse? I would have never thought that!

Maybe you had to be there...

[Acquiesce]

Wow, what does 'go down' have to do with a warehouse? I would have never thought that!

Maybe you had to be there...

Where i come from in England everyone would know the word godown to mean a warehouse, in another part of the country you would be lucky if you could find a handfull of people who knew.

Hmmm this is the point i made in the .'teasing thread' but someone just could not get it.

[soundman]

Where i come from in England everyone would know the word godown to mean a warehouse, in another part of the country you would be lucky if you could find a handfull of people who knew.

That is true, I didn't know what a "godown" was until I came to Asia. Since learning the meaning, have seen reference to it in numerous countries.

[Richard W]

I have never heard the term "False friends" I thought it meant like a phony. I looked it up and see it's a word with two definitions. ###### I was confused.

The more technical term for this is 'false cognates'. Lots of them in French and English that can trip you up. In French they are known as, as you would expect, faux amis. Every year there are tourists who try to check into the Hotel de Ville...

Are you sure of this? I always false cognates were words that looked as though they were related, but aren't - Thai ตาย 'die' and English 'die' may be the best Thai-English pair. False friends are cognates, but the meaning has diverged so much that one gets misled. Some examples of false friends, in varying degrees, are:

• แอร์ 'air conditioning', 'air hostess'
  
• แฟน 'sexual partner' (barely retains the sense of 'supporter', as in 'footbal fan')
  
• รถทัวร์ (a hybrid word) 'coach' (i.e. superior, long distance bus)
  

[Aries74]

• 
  

<ul><li><font size="3">แอร์</font> 'air conditioning', 'air hostess'</li><li><font size="3">แฟน</font> 'sexual partner' (barely retains the sense of 'supporter', as in 'footbal fan')</li><li><font size="3">รถทัวร์</font> (a hybrid word) 'coach' (i.e. superior, long distance bus)</li></ul>

sa wat dee thook thook khohn, Hello, everybody

to me godown or godang doesn't sound right in Thai it is more like go-dung mean warehouse, but that's what it show in the dictionary.

รถทัวร์ = tour bus ทัวร์=tour

"sexual partner" ??? would fall under bf/gf/wife/husband/mistress, etc.

แฟน = girlfriend or boyfriend , someone that is not married.

You would want to introduce your wife to someone and say this is my "แฟน" you might get a smack in the face.

sa wat dee

[Aries74]

 [quote name='weary' date='2007-10-07 18:28:43' post='1581268']
[quote]You would want to introduce your wife to someone and say this is my "แฟน" you might get a smack in the face.[/quote]

I've heard married people refer to their spouse as fan.
[/quote]

Yes, you are correct you can say that, but it's less respectful. You should use it when introduce to someone important.

You could probably say it around your friends.

May it is a good thing when you meet someone and you say "แฟน" they would have to wonder are they marry

or not.

[Richard W]

รถทัวร์ = tour bus ทัวร์=tour

'Tour bus' implies a guided trip. I am talking about the coaches used for scheduled long-distance services. My point is that the Thai phrase has lost the original English meaning, at least in this context.

"sexual partner" ??? would fall under bf/gf/wife/husband/mistress, etc.

แฟน = girlfriend or boyfriend , someone that is not married.

You would want to introduce your wife to someone and say this is my "แฟน" you might get a smack in the face.

Should I then have protested when my wife's brother-in-law (wife's elder sister's husband) was introducing me as "แฟน + wife's nickname"? My wife and I had been married for several years by then.

Edited October 7, 2007 by Richard W

[DavidHouston]

รถทัวร์ = tour bus ทัวร์=tour

'Tour bus' implies a guided trip. I am talking about the coaches used for scheduled long-distance services. My point is that the Thai phrase has lost the original English meaning, at least in this context.

"sexual partner" ??? would fall under bf/gf/wife/husband/mistress, etc.

แฟน = girlfriend or boyfriend , someone that is not married.

You would want to introduce your wife to someone and say this is my "แฟน" you might get a smack in the face.

Should I then have protested when my wife's brother-in-law (wife's elder sister's husband) was introducing me as "แฟน + wife's nickname"? My wife and I had been married for several years by then.

That paragon of correctness and virtue, the Royal Institute Dictionary, says with respect to "แฟน"

แฟน (ปาก) น. ผู้นิยมชมชอบ เช่น แฟนเพลง แฟนภาพยนตร์ แฟนมวย, ผู้เป็นที่ชอบพอรักใคร่, คู่รัก, สามีหรือภรรยา.

" 'Faan' (spoken language) N. A person who supports or cheers for, for example, a perons who admires a certain song; a fan of a movie; a boxing fan; a person who is loved, or a lover, or a husband or wife. "

Now, would the Royal Institute call a husband and wife "fans" of each other if the usage were not absolutely proper? I think not. At least, that is what my fan would say.

[Rikker]

RID got one right!

Allow me to suggest that แฟน in the sense husband/wife may not be less respectful, but it's almost certainly seen by many as less formal. Which aren't the same thing.

[Plus]

I had no idea "faan" in a sense of "partner" was an additional meaning to English "fan".

That's you false friend - in English "This is my fan" is totally confusing to outsiders and will earn you a smack in face regardless.

[Aries74]

I had no idea "faan" in a sense of "partner" was an additional meaning to English "fan".

That's you false friend - in English "This is my fan" is totally confusing to outsiders and will earn you a smack in face regardless.

It's hot in here I have to sit infront of a FAN!

[DavidHouston]

I had no idea "faan" in a sense of "partner" was an additional meaning to English "fan".

That's you false friend - in English "This is my fan" is totally confusing to outsiders and will earn you a smack in face regardless.

Do you possibly have an unusually abusive female friend who looks for any excuse to smack you in the face?

[Aries74]

I had no idea "faan" in a sense of "partner" was an additional meaning to English "fan".

That's you false friend - in English "This is my fan" is totally confusing to outsiders and will earn you a smack in face regardless.

Do you possibly have an unusually abusive female friend who looks for any excuse to smack you in the face?

May be he likes being smack in the face by his abusive female friend.

May be his abusive female friend like to smack him in the face with a fan.

fan = a series of revolving blades supplying air for winnowing or cleaning grain.

[Plus]

Taking a piss, huh?

Seriously, why do Thais think that the meaning of fan can be extended to a partner? Do they view relationships as fans admiring their idols?

I've never noticed.

[DavidHouston]

Taking a piss, huh?

Seriously, why do Thais think that the meaning of fan can be extended to a partner? Do they view relationships as fans admiring their idols?

I've never noticed.

Plus,

The following is an excerpt from "ภาษาไทย วันละคำ", "Thai Language, a Word a Day" by Kanchana Naksakul and her staff. The entry can be found on page 499 of that volume. (The cost of the hard cover, 837 page volume in Thailand is only 750 baht.)

________________________________

"แฟนมาจากคำภาษาอังกฤษว่า fan แปล่า คนที่ชอบหรือคลั่งสิ่งใดสิ่งหนึ่ง คำว่า fan ย่มมาจาก fantastic ซึ่งแปลว่าคลั่ง คลั่งไคล้ หลงไหล ในภาษาไทย คำว่า แฟน ใช้เฉพาะในภาษาพูดเท่านั้น มีหลายความหมาย ความหมายหนึ่งคือ คู่รัก คนรัก . . . "

"[The word] 'แฟน' comes from the English word 'fan' which can be translated as 'a person who likes or is crazy about something or someone.' The word 'fan' [in English] most likely comes from the word 'fantastic' which means 'to be crazy about or infatuated with something'. In Thai the word 'แฟน' is used only in the spoken language and has many applications. One meaning is "a sweetheart or a lover."

___________________________________________

The entry in "A Word a Day" contains a number of examples which should be of interest to the learner. Personally, I think it is absolutely wonderful when old married couples refer to each other as their 'fan'.

Edited October 8, 2007 by DavidHouston

[mangkorn]

Khun Kanchana is incorrect only in her conjecture about the origin in English: it comes from Latin "fanaticus," ("fanatico" in Spanish). The equivalent in English is "fanatic," later shortened to "fan," and the former now often has negative connotations. Then again, if one considers the behaviour of some English football fans...

[DavidHouston]

Khun Kanchana is incorrect only in her conjecture about the origin in English: it comes from Latin "fanaticus," ("fanatico" in Spanish). The equivalent in English is "fanatic," later shortened to "fan," and the former now often has negative connotations. Then again, if one considers the behaviour of some English football fans...

That's my fault; I should have typed "fanatic"; "fanatic" is what Khun Kanchana wrote.

[Richard W]

The equivalent in English is "fanatic," later shortened to "fan," and the former now often has negative connotations. Then again, if one considers the behaviour of some English football fans...

But consider the etymology of fanatic:

(obs.) frenzied, as though by divine or demonic possession XVI; marked by excessive enthusiasm XVII; sb. (obs.) (religious) maniac; unreasoning enthusiast XVII - F. fanatique (Rabelais) or L. fānāticus pert. to a temple, inspired by a deity (spec. of priests of Bellona, Cybele, and other goddesses in whose temples they lived), frenzied, f fānum temple, FANE; see -ATIC.

(List of derivatives not quoted, and hyperlinks added by me.)

I rather think the word has always had negative connotations in European languages.

[Neeranam]

On 10/2/2007 at 5:41 PM, sutnyod said:

Hi,

I am a bit interested in false friends and (think I) found some:

Kampong in Khmer is river, while in Bahasa Indonesia it is village.

And is 'kodang', which means warehouse in both Thai and Indonesien really of the same origin or is it coincidence?

Anybody else who noticed those things?

I think these are cognates, not false friends.

[Neeranam]

On 10/8/2007 at 8:02 AM, Plus said:

I had no idea "faan" in a sense of "partner" was an additional meaning to English "fan".

That's you false friend - in English "This is my fan" is totally confusing to outsiders and will earn you a smack in face regardless.

This is not a false friend but a homophone.

[Lorry]

2 hours ago, Neeranam said:

This is not a false friend but a homophone.

It's both

[digbeth]

on topic of divergent use/context and etymology

the bus in colloquial thai is รถเมล์ from the time the service used to carry postal mail เรือเมล์ for boats were also used 

รถเมล์ is for regular intra-city service and รถทัวร์ is for inter-city coaches that doesn't have tour guide service on board even as previously discussed in this thread.

 

วิน มอเตอร์ไซค์ has its etymological root in horseracing terms from the win/place the phrase in thai is เข้าวิน เข้าเพลส which probably became associated with victory and good luck and when motorcycle taxi rank began to develop, when the came 'home' to the rank they might have played with announcing the word เข้าวิน and then the วิน became used to denote a place where service like motorcycle or van for hire congregate 

 

 

[Lorry]

10 hours ago, digbeth said:

when the came 'home' to the rank they might have played with announcing the word เข้าวิน

Sounds a bit far-fetched but I don't have any better explanation.

 

10 hours ago, digbeth said:

วิน became used to denote a place where service like motorcycle or van for hire congregate 

Now it also means the driver and his vehicle (like in "taxi") as in นั่งวิน or ไม่มีวิน