Flash Flood kills 4 Swiss, 2 Thai, 1 German and 1 Brit In Surat Thani

[prasopes]

I've done exactly the same tour in June and am wondering if lack of suitable equipment could've been a factor. In a group of 4 we only had two weak and not very well engineered head lamps + a torch which ran out about 5 minutes in (only to realise later that we had our own Petzl head lamp and couple of glowsticks in the car).

Wonder if depending on where they got caught they would've been able to climb up into the rafters and sit it out (which of course would not be possible in the 300 meters or just before the steep drop with rope mentioned in the post above).

Thinking about what must have been happening down there doesn't bear thinking about. Condolences to the family.

[distortedlink]

THE SOUTH

Tidal waves, female tourist murdered and raped, civil war, ferry boats capsizing, farang mafia gangs in land scams, plane crash, female Russian tourists shot and murdered and now this latest incident.

Seems that the Southern provinces of Thailand is Jinxed.

Edited October 14, 2007 by distortedlink

[george]

Update:

Sole survivor of tourist flood tragedy found alive

SURAT THANI: -- The remaining female German tourist who went missing Saturday after being trapped during a tragic flash flood in a cave in this southern province was found alive Sunday at midday.

The as yet unidentified woman was one of a group of German holidaymakers who traveled by boat from the dam to the cave in Ban Ta Khun district national park on Saturday. They were accompanied by the two local guides. All the others in the tour group were confirmed dead.

The cave became flooded following a heavy downpour that began about an hour before the vacationers began their journey. All of them were then trapped by rapidly rising water in the cave.

The bodies of five German tourists, including three children, and the two local guides were located late Saturday night, and the corpse of another German man was recovered Sunday morning from inside the cave, local officials said.

The only survivor -- quite weary from her ordeal -- was immediately sent to a nearby hospital.

The bodies of the dead tourists were sent to a pier at the dam before dawn Sunday morning before being taken to hospital in the district for an autopsy, officials said.

--TNA 2007-10-14

[zoltannyc]

THE SOUTH

Tidal waves, female tourist murdered and raped, civil war, ferry boats capsizing, farang mafia gangs in land scams, plane crash, female Russian tourists shot and murdered and now this latest incident.

Seems that the Southern provinces of Thailand is Jinxed.

THE TOWN

Steampipe explosion, flooded subways, tourist murdered by homeless men, women pushed under subway, local mafia in garbage scam, gang wars, 3 people killed execution style. And now duble shooting just a few blocks away...

Seems that New York City is Jinxed.

(please don't be a fearmonger)

[donna]

the guide who led the first trip of the day through the cave, who is my friend, warned the guide that there was a lot of water in the cave, and that it wasnt a good idea to proceed (they passed each other in the jungle).

i will post more as i find out more. but i do have a friend on the ground there who has been in the jungle and the cave all night recovering bodies, so the information i am passing on should be accurate.

Thank you for the information.

Please try to confirm the news reports that said National Park staff specifically told these tour guides not to go into the cave, but that they did so anyway. This would be in addition to your report that the first tour guide recommended to the second group that they not go.

Thank you.

from what i have been told, they were not specifically told by the rangers to not go in to the cave. the first TWO groups got in and out ok. it was the third group that did not make it.

the guide i know was in the first group, and was followed closely behind by a second group. the third group had stopped for lunch before going in to the cave, and were seen by the first group on the way out in the jungle (its sort of a big loop you do on the walk). the guide of the first group had told the third guide that there was a lot of water in the cave and that he should maybe reconsider. i am NOT sure of the exact words used, and am not sure of how strongly the warning had been put across. it could have been anything from 'jeez, theres a lot of water in there today' to 'its dangerous, dont go in'. i am not willing to say how strong the warning was.

there have been many occasions where i have reached the entrance to the cave and decided, along with my guides, that it was too dangerous to do the cave on that day.

as for there being signs, look, if the national park is saying that there are signs up, there may very well be. but they are more than likely to be in a place that most people would not see them. face it. most people are too excited about going on an adventure to look for, let alone read a sign stuck up in some tin shack. i do have a bit of difficulty believing this.

this story has been haunting me all day and i feel so sad for those left behind. and now with the news of the 17 year old girl being found alive - all i can say is that its a miracle. she is a very lucky girl and certainly had someone watching over her yesterday.

to the person who asked if they were heading in to the cave at 7.30pm, no, they were not. that is the time i received a call from my friend alerting me to this, so thats what time the alert went out. they weer already on the lake in the morning, so i suspect they would have headed off at around 1pm on their trip.

if i hear of any more news, i will surely put an update on this thread.

[george]

Update:

Probe begins in drowned German tourists incident

BANGKOK: -- A senior Thai government official will travel to the southern province of Surat Thani Sunday evening to begin an official investigation into Saturday's tragic accident in which six German tourists and two Thai guides died after being trapped by the flooding inside the cave.

Chalermsak Wanichsombat, director-general of National Park, Wildlife and Plant Conservation Department, said he would find out the actual cause of the accident from concerned officials in the area during his stay.

Officials at the national park had warned the tourists not to travel because of the heavy downpours in the area but the Thai guides insisted on making the journey, Mr. Chalermsak said.

Seven German tourists and their two Thai guides traveled by boat from Ratchaprapha dam to the cave in Khao Sok national park in Ban Ta Khun district on dam to the cave in national park in Ban Ta Khun district on Saturday.

The area inside the cave was flooded following a heavy downpour which began about an hour before the party of tourists began their journey.

The bodies of five German tourists, including three children, and two Thai guides were recovered late Saturday night while another body of a German man was recovered this morning from inside the cave, officials said. The sole survivor was found Sunday noon.

Mr. Chalermsak said he planned to discuss with concerned government agencies on closing some caves or waterfalls considered risky during the monsoon temporarily. However, the issue needs to be discussed at length because it might hurt tourism operators and revenue.

--TNA 2007-10-14

[donna]

of COURSE they should close the cave during the rainy season! why keep a dangerous cave open for fear that it "might hurt tourism operators and revenue". it should not even be a consideration. just do it!

in addition, the national parks, or, indeed, any guides or guesthouses sending people into the cave, should also publish a document stating what the dangers are and what risks are involved with entering the cave. they should also equip the tourists with operational flashlights, and, in some cases (as i have seen many times before) life vests. many a time i have taken people through the cave in vests.

[ThailandTony]

Tragic news with the consolation that there is a survivor and hopefully the truth will emerge about this tragedy.

Thanks to DONNA for the insight.

This type of tragedy is not limited to Thailand so please do not take out the tar and start spreading it liberally over the whole Nation.

Condolences to the families of the poor lost souls.....may they Rest in Peace.

[Galong]

A bit of tar is exactly what's needed! As is obvious from what Mr. Chalermsak said, it might hurt tourism operators and revenue It SHOULD hurt tourism! This is a crime and if the tar isn't brought out, mark my words, it will happen again. Sorry, I don't care as much for revenue as I do the lives of innocent tourists! Here's a good idea: fire Mr. Chalermsak and replace him with someone who actually understands that safety trumps money...

The nation of Thailand has a very lax attitude towards safety in general as can be witnessed by the way they drive and they way they'll ride a motorbike without a helmet as long as the cops aren't looking... not to mention the way outdoor adventure guides put their clients' lives at risk.

If you don't believe me and if you're in Chiang Mai, go to the Mae Teng river when it's running high and fast and watch how many cowboy raft guides come by without a life jacket or a helmet or a proper guide paddle (which needs to be bigger than the punters' paddles so the guide can steer the raft more efficiently).

Again, this same accident has happened before and it will happen again. The government needs to come down hard and stop all unqualified guides from doing anything that is risky.

There is plenty of information out there and plenty of certifying bodies that can teach risk assessment. Certifying guides to international standards is merely the first step however. To change the mindset there needs to be severe punishments for those who ignore safety rules and if there is an accident, heads need to roll.

There is more to tourism than merely filling planes and hotels. The government needs to swallow their pride and get some outside help. They don't need to reinvent the wheel. There are governing bodies for all sort of activities. For paddling, the British Canoe Union is probably the organization of choice. There are trekking organizations too, such as NOLS and others. There is no reason for not having properly trained trekking guides or any outdoor guides... that is, if safety actually matters to Thailand. I have my doubts.

This really makes me mad as I've seen this coming. I've witnessed guides on this very hike racing ahead of their clients so they could have a cigarette and being completely out of touch with their clients when inside the cave! Yes, I've ran into tourists in the cave who have asked me if I saw their guide!!! They usually have very weak torches (flashlights) and they don't have enough light sources for cave exploration. Please don't reply saying that they don't have the money to buy good gear. First of all, many of these companies make plenty of money and safety equipment is a lot more important that a fancy four-wheel drive truck for the boss.

Break out the tar! And, spread the word that you may be risking your life if you go with an unqualified tour guide in Thailand.

[absolutelyBangkok]

the only survivor is 21 year old british helena c.

her boyfriend john c, 24, died.

also no swiss survivor. the 17 year old died.

[JetsetBkk]

According to the Bangkok Post, there were more Swiss victims than German.

Six European tourists killed in Thai cave flood

Bangkok - A cave flood in southern Thailand killed six European tourists and their two Thai guides, with only one British woman surviving the 20-hour ordeal, park officials said Sunday.

Heavy rains inundated Nam Talu Cave in Koh Sok National Park of Surat Thani, about 400 kilometres south of Bangkok, while the seven tourists were visiting the popular site with two Thai tour guides Saturday afternoon, said park deputy chief Thirayudh Mungpaisan.

Rescue workers retrieved eight bodies from the cave, including those of the two Thai tour guides, four Swiss nationals, one Briton and a German boy, Thirayudh told Deutsche Presse-Agentur dpa.

British national Helena Christina Carroll, 21, was found alive around noon on Sunday after spending nearly 20 hours trapped in the flooded cave.

"The flood waters had taken her up to the roof of the cave and when the water receded she was stuck up there and couldn't get down," said Thirayudh. "When she heard the rescuers she called for help and they found her."

Originally the group was thought to comprise only German tourists as the Swiss nationals were German-speakers, said Thirayudh.

Police identified the foreign victims as a Swiss family including Benno Fisher, 49, Stalder Fisher, 48, Ambarea Fisher, 17, and Sarah Fisher, 15, plus British national John Nicholas Cullan, 24, and Eddie Gaempe, 10, of Germany.

The mother of the dead child had not joined the outing.

"She didn't think it would be dangerous because there were many adults on the boat," said Surat Thani Police Lieutenant Colonel Phicarn Galayaseri.

Thirauydh said the group had a taken a boat to the cave, about 3 kilometres from their bungalows, and were caught inside during a three-hour rainstorm that inundated the cavern.

He claimed that park officials had issued warnings to tourists about the dangers of visiting the cave during the rainy season.

The tourists had been staying on floating bungalows on the Koh Sok reservoir. (dpa)

http://www.bangkokpost.com/topstories/tops...s.php?id=122619

[Scott]

I have to agree, somewhat, with Galong. The attitude is way to lax. What is particularly sad in cases like this is that people hire guides. If I do something alone, I am willingly taking risks, when I hire a guide, a driver or some other "expert" I am doing so to minimize my risk. What is sad for these folks is they put their lives in the hands of someone they trusted and the outcome was devestating for all.

I do hope they have an investigation because I am sure the two guides didn't wish to die either.

Condolences to all.

[donna]

there was only one guide. the other thai was the boat driver.

usually when i went in to the cave, i had one guide (usually very experienced), the boat driver, myself, and often one more national parks guy with us. one person for a party of eight is simply not enough.

as far as i am aware, the tourists were not staying on the floating rafthouses. i believe they were on a day trip only, but i could be wrong here.

in all of this, i do have to say that the local people of Baan Takun showed a lot of courage in trekking through the jungle in the middle of the night (yes, there are still wild tigers and elephants there - many of my friends have seen them) and then venturing into the cave to retrieve bodies and to search for survivors. my friends husband was one of the searchers and spent all night there. when asked why he was so determined to go, he told my friend that he wanted to make sure that the dead were treated with dignity and i do believe that this was achieved.

the whole village has breathed a sigh of relief when the sole survivor was found and i hope that she recovers from this experience with as few emotional scars as possible.

[sriracha john]

Channel 9 News was just showing the sole survivor (her boyfriend was one of the dead) walking out with the rescuers. She looked fine physically, but quite emotional understandably. The reporter said she survived by climbing up the walls of the cave. The park's cave is now closed to all.

[Tony Clifton]

I'll bet that waterfall where many drowned in a flash flood earlier this year is still open for all to swim in.

Do you think they'll bother doing anything concrete with safety regulations when you simply look at the horrific annual Songkran death toll that repeats year after year?

[Galong]

usually when i went in to the cave, i had one guide (usually very experienced), the boat driver, myself, and often one more national parks guy with us. one person for a party of eight is simply not enough.

I don't mean to sound insulting, but please tell us how you knew your guide was 'very experienced'?

Did your guide:

1. Have at least two dependable waterproof sources of light for every person in the party and with fresh batteries in each light?

2. Was your guide within talking distance to the party members for the duration of the walk... especially anywhere where someone could get in trouble?

3. Were you given any sort of a briefing about exactly what you were getting into?

4. Were you given any instructions about what to do if something goes wrong while swimming in the cave?

5. Did your guide have a proper first aid kit?

6. Did your guide have any way of contacting help if there was an accident? Or at the minimum, have a person left behind who knew exactly what to do if you were one hour late? Two hours late? Longer?

This is a big part of what I do for a living, so I'm interested in just what sort of safety precautions were taken in your experience? I hope I didn't sound insulting... I'm just interested in how you answer my questions so I can feel better about at least one guide who did it properly. I'm sure they're out there.

Thanks...

[thaiman]

Why isn't access to the place forbidden since there's already been deaths and close calls there previously?

because this is thailand!

[rainman]

There are 4 dead Swiss, 1 dead German. Not 8 Germans.

[tropiccapricorn]

I have seen that in other countries as well.

Because the tour operators make money by making the tour they are very reluctant to cancel it for safety reasons.

Somebody else ought to make the decision.

With the result of course, that there would be endless bickering kind of you see, it didn’t rain, which probably

is true in 99 cases.

[sriracha john]

Briton survives cave flood tragedy

A British woman survived by clinging to the ceiling of a cave in flash floods that killed six other tourists and two Thai guides, police said.

A British man, a 10-year-old German boy and four Swiss citizens, along with their local guides, were swept away while they were exploring a cave at a southern Thai national park, said police Lt Col Pichan Kanayasiri.

- Daily Post (UK)

*edit*

All Accounted For

Deaths

4 Swiss

2 Thai

1 German

1 Briton

Survivor

1 Briton

Edited October 14, 2007 by sriracha john

[donna]

usually when i went in to the cave, i had one guide (usually very experienced), the boat driver, myself, and often one more national parks guy with us. one person for a party of eight is simply not enough.

I don't mean to sound insulting, but please tell us how you knew your guide was 'very experienced'?

your questions arent insulting at all. i will do my best to answer them to the best of my ability.

the guides i were using were licenced guides (no, i know that doesnt mean a lot here, but it at least makes them legal). they had been working for the operator i was using for some time and did the cave walk a couple of times a week. by experienced, i do mean experienced on THAT particular walk. as for them being trained in outdoor adventure activities, i highly doubt it.

Did your guide:

1. Have at least two dependable waterproof sources of light for every person in the party and with fresh batteries in each light?

No. we did not have two per person. i made every group member take their own flashlight and made sure they had brand new batteries. i usually carried spares with me, as well as a spare flashlight.

2. Was your guide within talking distance to the party members for the duration of the walk... especially anywhere where someone could get in trouble?

when i was taking groups on that walk, i would have the NP guy or the boatman up the front, i would be in the middle and the guide would do the sweep at the back of the group. usually there was only 1 minute between the head and the sweep. in the difficult parts of the cave, we would all stop and do it one by one (especially at the steep waterfall drop in the middle of the cave) and i would have the group members swim two by two to the shallow water, leaving nobody to do it alone.

3. Were you given any sort of a briefing about exactly what you were getting into?

on my first training trip into the cave, i was given no instruction at all so i had no idea what the heck i was getting myself in to. as a result, i learned as much as i could and briefed my groups thoroughly on what they were getting in to. some people opted out of the cave walk after me telling them what they were in for, and i was usually thankful for that as i respect someone who knows their limitations.

4. Were you given any instructions about what to do if something goes wrong while swimming in the cave?

the guides didnt often do this, but i did it myself before going in. as i mentioned above, the most dangerous spot is that drop off in the middle, so i made them swim two by two to the shallow water. i always did a head count once everyone was down. if a swimmer did get into any difficulty, i always told them to try to get to an area of the wall where they could grab on to and wait for us. as mentioned earlier, we were usually never more than a minute behind them.

5. Did your guide have a proper first aid kit?

Yes. always.

6. Did your guide have any way of contacting help if there was an accident? Or at the minimum, have a person left behind who knew exactly what to do if you were one hour late? Two hours late? Longer?

as we were always staying at either Tone Toey or Ploen Pry, they always knew when to expect us back. both stations had a two way radio as far as i am aware and could contact the headquarters in the event of an emergency. im not sure what the situation is now though.

i am unsure as to whether they had procedures in place in the event of a group not returning.

This is a big part of what I do for a living, so I'm interested in just what sort of safety precautions were taken in your experience? I hope I didn't sound insulting... I'm just interested in how you answer my questions so I can feel better about at least one guide who did it properly. I'm sure they're out there.

my guides varied, but the BEST two guides in Khao Sok was a young bloke called You and also the husband of my friend, Aoo. These guys had the most common sense of all guides in the park in my opinion. in my opinion these two guys have passengers safety in mind at all times.

i guess that i am lucky that in over 5 years of tour leading i did not have one accident or incident that could be credited to the fault of a guide. the worst thing that happened to me was when we hit a submerged tree on the lake and the boat sank. with a hole the size of a football in the bottom of the boat we made it to shore before the boat was filled with water. no injuries and no loss of personal belongings. aside from that, nothing to mention.

i used to work for BHP in melbourne, and had the safety mentality drummed into me for years. i guess it rubbed off and i still put a lot of this into practice today.

Thanks...

[madjbs]

Why isn't access to the place forbidden since there's already been deaths and close calls there previously?

because this is thailand!

It might surprise you but unfortunately people die in caving accidents in the west as well. When people die while caving in the U.K the government doesn’t shut off the cave for ever, it doesn’t ban all caving, so why should they do that here?

Caving can be a dangerous sport, so can swimming in waterfalls. Its not up to the government to stop people doing things that may result in them killing themselves. They would have to close off hundreds of sites around the country, even the west hasn’t got to that cotton wool level yet.

However it is the responsibility of the government that if novices are going to put their life in a guide’s hand, then the guide must be properly qualified. If the above report is correct and the guide took the people down 1 hour AFTER the rain started then it was an unbelievably stupid decision they made.

Edited October 14, 2007 by madjbs

[ThaiPauly]

Tragic news with the consolation that there is a survivor and hopefully the truth will emerge about this tragedy.

Thanks to DONNA for the insight.

This type of tragedy is not limited to Thailand so please do not take out the tar and start spreading it liberally over the whole Nation.

Condolences to the families of the poor lost souls.....may they Rest in Peace.

I concur..thank you Donna..

I wanted to say something else ..but it seems inappropriate ..but anyone can guess what it is

To do with trusting Thai guides...I will leave it there out of respect for the deceased

RIP all the lost souls

[donna]

i dont agree that the cave be closed full stop but i do think that it should be closed for the rainy season. unfortunately it takes a tragedy such as this to make people realise that it can be a very dangerous cave during the rainy season. i definitely do not believe that every 'dangerous' activity should be banned. under the right conditions and with the right equipment it can be great fun.

during my years working as a tour leader, i certainly did meet some dangerous and rather stupid guides, but none of these were in khao sok. the biggest cowboys, in my opinion (which i do think i am qualified to make) were in chiang mai working on trekking tours as well as rafting.

[madjbs]

Not allowing tourist trips down in the rainy season would probably be a reasonable solution. The weather in Thailand at this time of year is just too unpredictable to go down caves with a high risk of flooding. Even if the weather looks reasonably ok one minute, 20 minutes later there could be heavy showers. Its standard practice good guides not to take clients down caves with flood risk if there is any chance of rain. If the guides cant be responsible enough to make that decision then perhaps the national park will have to take this action.

I have also met some complete clowns called guides in the U.K, guiding school parties down fairly easy caves. They have been the cause of a fair few rescues. A lot of them don’t have much experience and are just doing it for the money and relatively easy life. Its probably the same here, some bad and some good.

Edited October 14, 2007 by madjbs

[Scott]

Of course caving is dangerous. Generally, most people aren't allowed to go very far into caves, or into areas deemed dangerous without a special permit. Ordinary tourists are given a much briefer view of the cave. I don't know those caves, but it sounds like they would do well to use a more rigorous screening process about who gets to go where and when.

[madjbs]

I dont think that is the case. Are you talking about Thailand or another country? People are generaly free to do what they like. You dont need a permit to walk to the edge of a cliff, which could be deemed a dangerous area. If the cave is owned by someone then you might need to ask permission to enter if your not on a trip. However its not then your free to go and explore as you please.

Edited October 14, 2007 by madjbs

[sriracha john]

Eight die as flash flood sweeps into cave

Six European tourists and two local guides died when a flash flood engulfed a cave they were exploring in Surat Thani, officials said Sunday.

Eight foreign tourists were trekking with local guides on Saturday in Khao Sok National Park in Surat Thani province when heavy rain caused a stream in Tham-nam Thalu cave to rise suddenly.

Helena Carroll, a 21-year-old British woman survived and was rescued Sunday, district official Sitichai Thaicharoen said, after eight bodies had been pulled from the water.

"We can identify the bodies now. There was a 10-year-old German boy ... an Englishman, a Swiss man and three Swiss women," he told AFP.

"The survivor is a British woman [Helena Carroll]. She is so far fine. She was able to climb up to the roof of the cave - that is why she survived. She has been sent to provincial hospital for treatment."

Carroll, from Birmingham, waited 16 hours to be rescued. She told Thailand-based British correspondent Andrew Drummond her holiday of a lifetime suddenly turned into a nightmare.

"I cannot believe I am the only survivor. I can't believe my John is dead. One minute I was in what I thought was the most beautiful place in the world. The next thing there is death all around me."

The Englishwoman, from Solihull in Birmingham, was travelling with fiancee John Cullan, 24, also from Solihull.

"We had got half way through the cave and I heard this sudden roar. I looked behind and saw this rush of water coming towards us," she said.

"John and I started climbing. The first thing we saw was the tour guide and 10-year-old German boy being dragged away, then the Swiss couple and their two lovely girls.

"As we climbed, I lost my grip and slipped down, but John grabbed me and pulled me up.

"We kept climbing higher and found a ledge. We were all alone in the dark. We could not see anything as all the torches had gone.

"John said: 'If we stay here we are going to die'. But I said we should stay. At least we are safe where we were.

"But he decided that he would get into the current and flow with it. He thought the current would take him out, then he could bring help to rescue me.

"He slipped into the water and that's the last I ever saw of him. He let go and he was just gone. I was alone in the dark. All I could see were insects that light up, like fireflies and hear the rumbling of the water. I sat there shivering all night. I had no idea what the time was.

"Then all of a sudden I saw a bright light. It was the light of a torch and so I started shouting 'Help. Help. I'm over here'.

"When I got out I was told that many people had died. They had been found at midnight, eight hours before I was rescued.

"Then they took me to a place which was being used as a mortuary. I saw John's body in a box next to one of the beautiful little Swiss girls. It was awful."

Police identified the dead as Swiss Benno Fischer, 49, and Stalder Fischer, 48, and their daughters Ambarea, 17, and Sarah, 15, and German Eddie Gaempe, 10, and John Cullan.

The two guides killed were Kitisak Pratoom, 30, and Sahachai Boonkong, 25.

Ines Gaempe, the mother of Eddie, survived because she did not go with the others into the cave. The group had hired a long-tail boat from Baan Chiew-laan pier to the cave. They took 90 minutes on the boat, then walked for about 3km to the cave, which was described as 700 metres long and 5-10 metres wide.

Local television channels showed images of rescuers carrying body bags from a boat overnight and laying them out on the shore.

After the tragedy, deputy Interior Minister Banyat Jansena called an urgent meeting and closed six national parks in Surat Thani, saying they were areas at risk from flash floods. The six parks include Khao Sok, Kaeng Krung, Tairomyen, Klong Panom, Angthong Marine Park and Pangan Marine Park.

Khao Sok has a large lake, thick rainforest, limestone cliffs and numerous caves - which make it popular for trekking. More than 20,000 tourists visited the park last year, according to a local tourism website.

The cave tragedy is the second blow to the tourism industry after the plane crash at Phuket airport last month, in which 90 people died.

- Agence France-Presse

==========================================================

What a horrendous experience for all concerned.....

[khall64au]

usually when i went in to the cave, i had one guide (usually very experienced), the boat driver, myself, and often one more national parks guy with us. one person for a party of eight is simply not enough.

I don't mean to sound insulting, but please tell us how you knew your guide was 'very experienced'?

Did your guide:

1. Have at least two dependable waterproof sources of light for every person in the party and with fresh batteries in each light?

2. Was your guide within talking distance to the party members for the duration of the walk... especially anywhere where someone could get in trouble?

3. Were you given any sort of a briefing about exactly what you were getting into?

4. Were you given any instructions about what to do if something goes wrong while swimming in the cave?

5. Did your guide have a proper first aid kit?

6. Did your guide have any way of contacting help if there was an accident? Or at the minimum, have a person left behind who knew exactly what to do if you were one hour late? Two hours late? Longer?

This is a big part of what I do for a living, so I'm interested in just what sort of safety precautions were taken in your experience? I hope I didn't sound insulting... I'm just interested in how you answer my questions so I can feel better about at least one guide who did it properly. I'm sure they're out there.

Thanks...

I visited this cave a few months ago - in the dry season - as a writer invited to join a tour group. Briefed before the boat ride, I was advised we would trek the jungle and visit a cave. I had no idea of what lay ahead. Asked if I had a torch, I produced my small camp torch. After trekking the few km's into the jungle - the cavern mouth appeared, looking like the entrance to Phantom's Cave.

Not far in, we entered the stream. My trekking sandles broke on rough rocks, but I continued on barefoot excited by the adventure. Minutes later, the battery in my torch died and luckily the guide had a spare headtorch. I was not that worried, although a bit perplexed by the complexity of this caving trip, for a bunch of amateurs.

It was the long swim in darkness and ice cold water - guided only by a rope - that worried me. I was totally unprepared, as it came without warning. Seeing the light of day at the end of the tunnel was a welcome sight.

Adventure is one thing but, I agree with Galong that, duty of care is of utmost importance in the business of "jungle" guiding. Most clients are from the city and have little knowledge of natural dangers.

When our group emerged from the cave, a pair of flip-flops floated out. Good for me, to walk out from the jungle, but to this day I still wonder who owned those lone shoes...

RIP to the victims of this tragedy!

[khall64au]

Actually, what is it going to take for the authorities to take tourist safety seriously?

Each year, on Phuket alone - at least a dozen tourists drown on the beaches- the same beaches that are touted worldwide in glossy brochures for year-round visits.

Why are these visitors needlessly dying? No trained life guards! Just a few months ago, an Australian Surf Lifesaver Association team came to the island to offer FREE professional training. The same week - while training was in progress - several tourists drowned on the island's most popular beaches with "lifeguards" on "patrol".

Just a few weeks ago, a Brit on holiday resuscitated a drowned victim who the "lifeguards" had given up for dead. Thanks to the Brit tourist, this woman is alive and well...

What's it going to take to get some serious, accredited professionalism?

How many accidents will it take for the tourism authorities to train adventure guides to international standards?

When will the authorities start assisting foreign-run NGO's who struggle to train Thai people to world standard accreditation - on a shoestring of global donations?

How many fatal boating accidents will it take to certify boats to international standards?

Thailand relies on a tourism economy. Why is the industry treated as a cash cow joke?