My Kids Are Thai - But What About Chinese-thais - Are They More "thai" Than Thai-farang Or Thai-indian?

[simon43]

don’t practice Thai Buddhism...

[\quote]

You do not have to be a Buddhist to be Thai. Try telling the 5% or so of the Thai population who are muslim and migrated here centuries ago that they are not Thai

Simon

[madjbs]

Sorry Simon you are correct, this requirement was not thought of as important in more recent times when Phibun tried to integrate the different groups of people including the various Muslim groups. However, during the first period of integration of the Chinese under King Rama the fifth it was looked upon as important ( This is not as relevant to the subject as modern times though).

Edited November 14, 2007 by madjbs

[thaigene2]

You do not have to be a Buddhist to be Thai. Try telling the 5% or so of the Thai population who are muslim and migrated here centuries ago that they are not Thai

Simon

Yes - or try telling that to the 5% of the Chinese 'Thais' who are Christians (or 'Catholics' as they like to refer to their 'religion'). So there are most certainly Chinese descendants born in Thailand where neither parent was "Thai" - but rather Chinese...not Buddhist but Christian (drive down to Samut Sakhon and see all the crosses), who seem to have Thai nationality, own land, etc, etc..

Another of the many contradictions in wonderful LOS..

[cdnvic]

Religion has never been a condition of Thai citizenship, and if these people are Thai citizens then why should they not own land?

[papaya9]

<br />Its funny that many Thai Chinese people go out of their way to make it clear that they're TC. A form of elitism and just another manifestation of big face syndrome.<br />

Im sure! "look how white we are" mind you in the west they are seen more as "yellow". Sad really, we are all people, all the same bar colour and a few minor differences and all on ONE planet which they fail to realise. Our stupidity will kill us all. Have a nice day :-)

You are so right.

[jetjock]

Its funny that many Thai Chinese people go out of their way to make it clear that they're TC. A form of elitism and just another manifestation of big face syndrome.

My in-laws are very adamant about that. They insist on being "Thai", not "Chinese Thai, or Thai Chinese"

'

My wife is also adamant and considers herself just Thai despite the fact that her parents are both 1/2 Chinese. She is now starting to get worried about staying fully Thai since she now she usually thinks and dreams in English!

[papaya9]

For me, the main souring aspect of Bangkok (and I LOVE Bkk) is seeing evidence of businessmen/businesses who advertise in one way or the other that they are of Chinese origin. I hate it, as a matter of fact. Just be another fellow human for God's sake and integrate! If they are so hel_l-bent on being identified as Chinese, just move the hel_l back to China. To me its all elitism. They were born in Thailand, so be Thai for everyone's sake!

[cdnvic]

Would make it challenging to find a good Chinese restaurant.

[Neeranam]

Thai Chinese would be a lot more respected if they painted their restaurants a different colour, rather than that horrible pale green that comes half way down the wall. I've never understood why they don't fill those empty whisky bottles on the shelves with cold tea.

[Heng]

So then, if a child is born to two chinese parents in Thailand do they get Thai citizenship? If so then why not farangs?

Also Heng - are you sure about that claim that they hand out citizenship to chinese-born migrants that easily? perhaps that explains why so many seem to have owned property for so long (foreigners cannot own land in Thailand).

For your first question, it's simply easier for Asians in general, not just Chinese to blend into Thai society. As a secondary reason, IMO the ethnic Thais prefer it that way. It's kind of like how in some countries, mainstream society in a way prefers that certain segments of their media and financial industry is run by those of Jewish descent. A Thai Chinese with relatives wanting to be Thai have the same advantage as say American Jews who have Israeli relatives who want to be American. Also, if we're talking about the Thai Chinese and farangs, the former have always taken a long term approach to Thailand, buying and rarely selling and passing everything on to the next generation, whereas farangs have traditionally chosen a much shorter planning horizon here - renting, not leaving a legacy, and so forth. Another significant difference is the lack of cohesive family structure in most farang families ("I don't get along with my brother/sister/in laws/etc., why would I want to get them set up in this country/state/province/company/family/etc.?"). The local version is "I don't get along with them either, but they are family." In general that leads to "one generation and out" for farangs, since the time when Portuguese, French, and Chinese traders first arrived in Siam.

And yes, I've seen it happen, although again, I wouldn't say it's 'easy.' The most common route is the distant family member route. A non-Thai cousin, niece, or nephew is allowed into the Thai house registry because his/her Thai 'parents' or guardians are Thai and able to transfer citizenship to them. The loophole put into place is that determination of citizenship is not merely document based, but also interview based.

Edited November 14, 2007 by Heng

[Heng]

For me, the main souring aspect of Bangkok (and I LOVE Bkk) is seeing evidence of businessmen/businesses who advertise in one way or the other that they are of Chinese origin. I hate it, as a matter of fact. Just be another fellow human for God's sake and integrate! If they are so hel_l-bent on being identified as Chinese, just move the hel_l back to China. To me its all elitism. They were born in Thailand, so be Thai for everyone's sake!

Farang resentment (by some, not all of course) -example Pap9 above- of the Thai Chinese IMO is only natural. It's difficult enough to get a rather uncertain "permit" to live here, and even when you do, you find that you and your progeny are likely subject to a life of convincing yourself that living life towards the middle and lower part of the food chain is 'good enough.' **flame removed*** One will note that better established farangs -say like Bendix, Cdnvic, etc.- don't tend to have such issues, except maybe when their portfolios take a dive.

The problem is, wherever the Chinese are IS China. It's like saying move back to Nonthaburi!

Edited November 15, 2007 by sbk
flame removed--sbk

[Pepe']

Its funny that many Thai Chinese people go out of their way to make it clear that they're TC. A form of elitism and just another manifestation of big face syndrome.

My in-laws are very adamant about that. They insist on being "Thai", not "Chinese Thai, or Thai Chinese"

----------------------

Interesting...

[CTO]

A first generation immigrant wouldn’t be considered Thai because they generally don’t speak Thai, don’t practice Thai Buddhism and don’t swear themselves to the king. Even if they did they technically wouldn’t be Thai as the modern Laws prevent it. Having said that they could probably be considered more Thai than a farang as Thais and Chinese have more similarities than farangs and Thais, as well as the long history of the Chinese in Thailand which means people are more accustomed to Chinese people.

And that shows how little you know,

Sonthi the newspaper man who brought down Thaksin is Chinese, 100%, family immigrated in the 60's I think. And he seems to be the most loyal subject the King had at a difficult time

The past ICT Minister is also first gen Chinese, who said in a Bangkok Post interview something like "I put THailand first, but then I put China second, even though I was educated in Australia which I like a lot"

And THAT was my point, these people are among the most powerful people in Thailand, lets think, small farmer, 10th gen Thai, Sonthi, 100% Chinese now Thai, who is more Thai? Who comands more power? Who has the ear of the most powerful people and wants a return to a Monarchy?

[wamberal]

1. My wife has one of each, Thai and ethnic Chinese, on either side amongst her grandparents. She is vehemently Thai, totally rejects any notion of being Thai-Chinese.

2. A major reason that the Chinese have been able to settle down and prosper in new lands is the high levels of mutual trust and networking that exist, particularly amongst people who originate from similar locations. They have been able to buy land and businesses with ease, through trusted intermediaries. AFAIK, many influential and rich Thai-Chinese originate from "Chiu-Chow" or "Teochew" in Guangdong province. This dialect is very popular amongst Thai-Chinese.

[t.s]

Well, who is Thai? Since the population consists largly of immigrants, (ie those who migrated to this geographical region that's now called Thailand), I think it's fair to say that any person who has Thai nationality is just as Thai as the next person. That ranges from the Tai groups of immigrants, the Portuguese who lived at Ayutthaya, the various muslim communities who migrated from Burma, China and Cambodia, and the Europeans/Westerners who are still migrating here and have obtained citizenship.

I'm not Thai right now. But if/when I get Thai citizenship (give me 5 years+), then I'm as Thai as the next Thai

Simon

You should become a cop, If i was ever to be a cop in Thailand, I would be the most corrupt cop you would ever see.

I would fine you if i dont like the way your looking at me.

I think it would be fun, just stare people down then tell them to piss off or get a fine.

Lets just hope I never become a Thai cop

you didn't get any smarter in your time away, did you?

[WaiWai]

2. A major reason that the Chinese have been able to settle down and prosper in new lands is the high levels of mutual trust and networking that exist, particularly amongst people who originate from similar locations. They have been able to buy land and businesses with ease, through trusted intermediaries. AFAIK, many influential and rich Thai-Chinese originate from "Chiu-Chow" or "Teochew" in Guangdong province. This dialect is very popular amongst Thai-Chinese.

Indeed, Chinese from this community have been particularly successful settlers around the world. Most Chinese seem to make a success of expat life, though.

Can the BKK Thai-Chinese mostly read & write Mandarin ? This would offer obvious commercial benefits and might be another reason why companies overtly signal their ethnicity.

[madjbs]

A first generation immigrant wouldn’t be considered Thai because they generally don’t speak Thai, don’t practice Thai Buddhism and don’t swear themselves to the king. Even if they did they technically wouldn’t be Thai as the modern Laws prevent it. Having said that they could probably be considered more Thai than a farang as Thais and Chinese have more similarities than farangs and Thais, as well as the long history of the Chinese in Thailand which means people are more accustomed to Chinese people.

And that shows how little you know,

Sonthi the newspaper man who brought down Thaksin is Chinese, 100%, family immigrated in the 60's I think. And he seems to be the most loyal subject the King had at a difficult time

The past ICT Minister is also first gen Chinese, who said in a Bangkok Post interview something like "I put THailand first, but then I put China second, even though I was educated in Australia which I like a lot"

And THAT was my point, these people are among the most powerful people in Thailand, lets think, small farmer, 10th gen Thai, Sonthi, 100% Chinese now Thai, who is more Thai? Who comands more power? Who has the ear of the most powerful people and wants a return to a Monarchy?

Still not making sense CTO, when I said first generation Chinese I was meaning if they immigrated now, not 50 years ago. I don’t pretend to know a great deal about this but from looking at your posts I don’t see anything there except what you have read in the BKK post. So before you start accusing me of not knowing anything I would brush up on your own knowlege of Thai history.

Edited November 15, 2007 by madjbs

[Payboy]

Don't tell the Thais that Lord Buddha was a "kaek".

and He never set foot in thailand - would have been refused a visa on arrival anyway

[wamberal]

Indeed, Chinese from this community have been particularly successful settlers around the world. Most Chinese seem to make a success of expat life, though.

Can the BKK Thai-Chinese mostly read & write Mandarin ? This would offer obvious commercial benefits and might be another reason why companies overtly signal their ethnicity.

I would guess that most Thai-Chinese cannot read and write Chinese, other than snatches of their own dialect, although perhaps that is changing as China rises as a super-power.

They did not need written, formal, language skills to trade with Chinese partners either in China or in Thailand, or anywhere else for that matter. Deals can be done verbally, through trusted third parties, many different ways. Where there is a will for a deal amongst the Chinese, there will be a way.

[WaiWai]

Where there is a will for a deal amongst the Chinese, there will be a way.

For sure. However, Chinese usually like to preserve knowledge of the language in their children, and commonly send them to Saturday classes to learn to read and write. It's clearly highly advantageous for business reasons, too.

[TonyLeung]

Where there is a will for a deal amongst the Chinese, there will be a way.

For sure. However, Chinese usually like to preserve knowledge of the language in their children, and commonly send them to Saturday classes to learn to read and write. It's clearly highly advantageous for business reasons, too.

By the third generation, I think its very unlikely/unusual for grand children to speak the language of their grand parents. I bet its <1% worldwide.

Edited November 15, 2007 by TonyLeung

[madjbs]

I know a lot of young second and third generation Chinese people and none of them can speak more than a few sentences of Mandarin or the dialect of the area where the family comes from. Previously it was different because Chinese kids would go to Chinese schools and learn everything in Chinese, then it was ruled that they must learn in Thai (but the schools were still bilingual) and now I think nearly every school is purely Thai based.

[Neeranam]

Farang resentment (by some, not all of course) -example Pap9 above- of the Thai Chinese IMO is only natural. It's difficult enough to get a rather uncertain "permit" to live here, and even when you do, you find that you and your progeny are likely subject to a life of convincing yourself that living life towards the middle and lower part of the food chain is 'good enough.' ***flame removed*** One will note that better established farangs -say like Bendix, Cdnvic, etc.- don't tend to have such issues, except maybe when their portfolios take a dive.

The problem is, wherever the Chinese are IS China. It's like saying move back to Nonthaburi!

I actually agreed with your post prior to this one - it must be the only one you've ever written that I have.

Why you need to resort to personal insults is beyond me. Saying that my family is the lower part of the food chain - what an idiot It say a lot about you.

You are Thai and the son of poor Chinese immigrants with a BIG chip on your shoulder about money, so will carry on the Chinese tradition to make makin money the min objective of your life. I really don't know why you are on an expat forum anyway except to probably seek out the richer farang to benefit in business from them.

You can maybe fool some on this forum, but I can see right through you. It's obvious to me, your hatred of farang - you are one confused kid.

[sbk]

Agreed, personal insults and flaming are against forum rules. To those who can't mind your manners then please don't post.

[sonnyJ]

I must admit that after reading the Guru section of the Bangkok Post each week, I find a rather, how shall I say this - 'class-based' and 'ethnic-based' bias growing concern that does not reflect favourably on Thai-Farang or Thai-Indian.

I have NEVER seen the same type of articles written about Thai-Chin. And I must wonder why.

The great thing about Thailand is its ability to laugh-off differences between cultures in a light-hearted way, and exploit them (in a good way) for the benefit of the country's development. My kids are a mix of Thai-Chin-Farang.

But this raises a question. Are Thai-Chin being positioned (in the media - to be clear here) as more Thai than Thai-Khmer, Thai-Lao, Thai-Farang, Thai-Indian, etc? Afterall, they are no more "THAI" than I am..

This is NOT a racial question - it's meant to provoke some soul searching about why it's OK to satarise thai-indian and thai-farang (not to mention Burmese, Khmer and others) but not thai-chin (or others?)..

To prohibit this debate would suggest a fear...of what exactly? Let's see.. let me be clear, Anyone who uses this post to get racist is not welcome to reply (from my perspective) but that shouldn't preclude a healthy deabte about where we as residents of Thailand are right now -- and where we are heading. Those who would prohibit that kind of debate speak volumes - they think they already know the truth - but do they?

Just to correct the term used here. Chin are one of the largest ethnic groups in Burma(about 1.5 mil.people). There even is a Chin State, bordering Bangladesh. I think the term you are looking for is Chinese, which as well is even broader definition of someones ethnicity. And who is a full blooded Thai anyway? How could you define it?

Peace.

Edited November 15, 2007 by sonnyJ

[sonnyJ]

Sorry Simon you are correct, this requirement was not thought of as important in more recent times when Phibun tried to integrate the different groups of people including the various Muslim groups. However, during the first period of integration of the Chinese under King Rama the fifth it was looked upon as important ( This is not as relevant to the subject as modern times though).

I don't know any Muslims with Thai passports but I do know few Sikhs and other 'Indian' people with Thai citizenship. Generally they don't consider them selves as Thais for understandable reasons, guess the problem here goes both ways. Thais don't like them, them don't like Thais so much. They are almost living in different worlds, I guess mostly due religion.

[madjbs]

Yes the Sikh population doesn’t seem to be integrated into Thai society in the same way as the Chinese. Does anyone know when the majority of these Indian and Sikh families migrated here? I guess another reason could be that they never had much power compared to the Chinese so the government powers never tried very hard to integrate them into Thai society when they first arrived.

[thaigene2]

Religion has never been a condition of Thai citizenship, and if these people are Thai citizens then why should they not own land?

Think you just answered your question -- because the question seems to be turning into are they 'really' Thai citizens? Born in Thailand doesn't make you a Thai citizen if both parents are Chinese, Canadian or whatever. If you're not Thai you can't own land. Ethnicity shouldn't be a factor.

[Heng]

Farang resentment (by some, not all of course) -example Pap9 above- of the Thai Chinese IMO is only natural. It's difficult enough to get a rather uncertain "permit" to live here, and even when you do, you find that you and your progeny are likely subject to a life of convincing yourself that living life towards the middle and lower part of the food chain is 'good enough.' ***flame removed*** One will note that better established farangs -say like Bendix, Cdnvic, etc.- don't tend to have such issues, except maybe when their portfolios take a dive.

The problem is, wherever the Chinese are IS China. It's like saying move back to Nonthaburi!

I actually agreed with your post prior to this one - it must be the only one you've ever written that I have.

Why you need to resort to personal insults is beyond me. Saying that my family is the lower part of the food chain - what an idiot It say a lot about you.

You are Thai and the son of poor Chinese immigrants with a BIG chip on your shoulder about money, so will carry on the Chinese tradition to make makin money the min objective of your life. I really don't know why you are on an expat forum anyway except to probably seek out the richer farang to benefit in business from them.

You can maybe fool some on this forum, but I can see right through you. It's obvious to me, your hatred of farang - you are one confused kid.

I should clarify: by food chain, I meant economic status (which surely is nothing to be ashamed of, as it's something you have to earn and deserve) as part of my analysis of apparent anti-Thai Chinese sentiment (see your post above for more) , I didn't realize you would take it as an insult, especially since I think you have brought it up more than a few times, almost as a personal trademark. I thought you might laugh actually.

Edited November 15, 2007 by Heng

[Heng]

Where there is a will for a deal amongst the Chinese, there will be a way.

For sure. However, Chinese usually like to preserve knowledge of the language in their children, and commonly send them to Saturday classes to learn to read and write. It's clearly highly advantageous for business reasons, too.

Rarely preserved after the 3rd generation. At that point, it's up to these descendants to seek out the culture on their own. The same way a lot of Jews learn Hebrew in college, I for example had to learn Mandarin at UT-Austin even though I already had the foundation through hearing business dealings in our shops, garage, and restaurant; but was never taught at home as my folks spoke Thai and English to me. And as you may know, whether you can speak fluently or not, as long as you can write, you can communicate with 'notes' with any other dialect, which is usually how communication will start if there is no common dialect.