What Do You Mean By "paying For It"?

[lazeeboy]

These topics always go this way, it seems.

In fact, I do know several Thai women with foreign husbands who did NOT marry a foreigner for money. These women have assets of their own and, astoundingly enough, seem to have married these men because they love them. Amazing that can happen, even in Thailand.

What I find interesting is the entirely male perspective on relationships, as if they are all somehow transactions with the man giving a disproportionate amount of whatever (himself, his money etc). I wonder how many of these guys actually stop to think about what their wife/girlfriend does for them? Or that perhaps we do things for each other in a relationship because we love the other person and like to see them happy?

Not saying all Thai/Farang relationships are not financial transactions, what I am saying is that most certainly not all of them are. And if you continue to view your relationship for what you can get out of it, or what it offers you then you are bound to attract someone who behaves the same. A sort of self-fulfilling prophecy. You get what you give.

nicely said

[Samuian]

Ive been there, iv'e done it and I am NOT doin' it again, after ten years of marriage, many long and short term relation ships - with females from various asian AND western countries - I can only say there IS a price tag on it everywhere!

Anyone who disagrees now will agree sooner or later!

It's simply 'cause there ain't no free lunch in the entire world!

It's just as simple as that!

i prefer to know before hand - who the heck would enter a cab without a meter without wanting to know how much the fare will be! huh?

Above all the monetary nonsense - I LOVE MY FREEDOM ABOVE ALL - I found out - just recently - I can easily be without a female - easily without a companion - easily without this or that - but NEVER without my FREEDOM!

I learned to LOVE MY FREEDOM!

No money can buy - no love can make even - no beauty can ever satisfy more!

Then the immeasurable treasure of genuine freedom!

[TonyLeung]

"I have not met ANY woman in Thailand, who was interested in a relationship with me, that did not expect or demand money."

Perhaps you should take a look in the mirror and try to figure out why this is.

It seems that ALL the other Farangs I know in Thailand should also look in the mirror, because they are in the same situation. I don't know ANY Farangs of my personal aquaintence who go for free. If you are claiming that you don't give Thai ladies any money & you have a close relationship with them, I would like to know your secret.

The words you use "who go for free" give me a good idea where you are coming from.

[jing jing]

I have a close friend living here who prides himself on the fact that his Thai girlfriends over the years have never been bargirls... all had "real" jobs... but somehow they all ended up getting gifts, trips, expensive meals, and other forms of financial support from him.

Dating back in the west, if the woman was attractive and had other suitors, generally involved some wining, dining, or the promise of future "rewards" as part of the deal. Part of the screening process for most [attractive] women is determining if the man in question is capable of providing some degree of financial security for her and her children in the future.

Somebody wiser than I once said that women generally end up with the wealthiest man they can attract, and men with the most attractive woman they can afford.

Damian, if you're dating a hot young Thai woman and aren't helping her out financially I can just about guarantee you that she's seeing someone else who is, or will be as soon as the opportunity presents itself.

SBK, it may be that you aren't aware of all the reasons behind why the Thai women you know married the foreigners they did, but I would venture to say they didn't end up with men who were financially dependent on them... they probably found the wealthiest guys they could attract.

Edited November 14, 2007 by jing jing

[Ulysses G.]

Damian, if you're dating a hot young Thai woman and aren't helping her out financially I can just about guarantee you that she's seeing someone else who is, or will be as soon as the opportunity presents itself.

Probably me, but please don't Kung <deleted> me. These old bones are brittle!

[thomo]

Tata young (a famous leukrung singer) got married yesterday. The cost to the husband in sinsod: 100 million baht in cash and another 100 million in gold bars etc. All laid out for everyone/the media to behold and photograph.

"See how great we are, my daughter is worth all this money."

Nearly puked at the thought of how people can think like that.

So the cost of 'Love' to that high-so dude: 200,000,000 baht and a minging wife that I wouldn't do for free.

[TonyLeung]

I don't know whether to pity or make fun of you sad saps.

[kat]

Somebody wiser than I once said that women generally end up with the wealthiest man they can attract, and men with the most attractive woman they can afford.

Right, somebody wise back in the 7th Century.

[britmaveric]

Does it really matter if one pays or not? The better question you should ask if they are truly happy?

[kat]

Obviously by the size of this thread and the discussion it generates, it does matter.

[Lost in LOS]

I pay for it for the same reason as Charlie Scheen, the actor

when asked by playboy in an interview about why he paid for sex with high class call girls when he could have any girl he wanted free he replied

" i never paid the girls for sex, i paid them to leave in the morning"

i have the same outlook

[TonyLeung]

i wish everyone had to post their photo after each post. that would make it easier to avoid you in real life.

[jing jing]

Somebody wiser than I once said that women generally end up with the wealthiest man they can attract, and men with the most attractive woman they can afford.

Right, somebody wise back in the 7th Century.

Do you deny that it's true? There are exceptions of course, but the evidence is all around you... the same basic principles of mating and dating have been in effect since day one.

[kat]

Somebody wiser than I once said that women generally end up with the wealthiest man they can attract, and men with the most attractive woman they can afford.

Right, somebody wise back in the 7th Century.

Do you deny that it's true? There are exceptions of course, but the evidence is all around you... the same basic principles of mating and dating have been in effect since day one.

Jing, Jing, maybe the evidence is all around YOU. I have NEVER thought this way, and neither have the bulk of women in my peer group.

[sbk]

SBK, it may be that you aren't aware of all the reasons behind why the Thai women you know married the foreigners they did, but I would venture to say they didn't end up with men who were financially dependent on them... they probably found the wealthiest guys they could attract.

Um, no, actually, you are incorrect. One that I know quite well is very well-to-do, University educated and attractive. Her husband's family, while not poor is most likely not nearly as asset wealthy as her family. She could have very easily married someone much wealthier than herself.

I am pretty sure that she actually loves the guy having known her for 18 years.

Not everyone approaches relationships in such a cynical fashion. Yes, many do, but be aware that there are always exceptions to every rule and not everyone will fit your idea of what is the norm here.

Also, as to the idea that women look for wealthy men, well certainly some women do, and of course it exists in the West as well, but is, I think, a dying tradition and one generally looked down upon by women themselves. Of course, someone will always come up with some example to refute this idea but again, it is merely an instance and IMO as a woman, not the norm in the West anymore.

[kat]

SBK, it may be that you aren't aware of all the reasons behind why the Thai women you know married the foreigners they did, but I would venture to say they didn't end up with men who were financially dependent on them... they probably found the wealthiest guys they could attract.

Um, no, actually, you are incorrect. One that I know quite well is very well-to-do, University educated and attractive. Her husband's family, while not poor is most likely not nearly as asset wealthy as her family. She could have very easily married someone much wealthier than herself.

I am pretty sure that she actually loves the guy having known her for 18 years.

Not everyone approaches relationships in such a cynical fashion. Yes, many do, but be aware that there are always exceptions to every rule and not everyone will fit your idea of what is the norm here.

Also, as to the idea that women look for wealthy men, well certainly some women do, and of course it exists in the West as well, but is, I think, a dying tradition and one generally looked down upon by women themselves. Of course, someone will always come up with some example to refute this idea but again, it is merely an instance and IMO as a woman, not the norm in the West anymore.

Very well posted. That attitude belongs to the generations of our mothers and grandmothers, not ours, thank the universe.

*And please don't bring up Hugh Hefner again, who is what, 80-something years old???? Yes, he has these young women, but they are little more than glorified prostitutes. The majority of younger women that I know simply do not live and think like that.

Edited November 14, 2007 by sbk

[Pepe']

My experience spans my young attractive 20s to my mid 40s when I finally married. On the whole if you live here long enough the whole western mentality about "paying for it" becomes less of an issue.

I don't feel there is any real standard as it all depends on what assets the man has (looks, age, money, status, etc...) and what kind of girl he is trying to get close to.

Personally speaking the cost varied considerably, but if a girl was giving up, what could be seen as her main asset, then I felt a sense of obligation to be there when she was in need. A lot depended on how good looking and in demand a girl was. If she was "hot" and had a lot of suitors, be they Thai or foreign, then the approach and obligations were different to someone at the other end of the social ladder.

Sometimes one paid by listening to her tearful or longwinded stories. Perhaps listening to complaints about her parents, the husband or sugar-daddy. Often it meant adjusting my schedule so she could get home to help mother cook dinner, thus diverting any suspicion about what she might have been up to in the afternoon. Sometimes it meant helping out at some later date with rent or medical expenses, etc...

As I explored Thai women at all levels of society it was not possible to have any hard and fast rules about money. Sometimes "flash" was required in the form of clothes, car, lifestyle, language and manors. Sometimes secrecy was necessary and sometimes cash on delivery.

As an afterthought, I would like to mention that Thai prostitutes in my day had a valuable marketing point. They were selling the "illusion of romance". They could make the uninitiated feel like he was the only man in her life. Often the money was an afterthought. A gift of appreciation that was not demanded upfront.

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Very cool. Reads kind of like a movie...

[luumak]

Hey Tony you handsum man - let me clue you in on something. The working women are here for one thing, thats work. It may include trying to win the lottery (ie marry, have man send money, boyfriend/s). but in the end, its a job and an hourly wage. They have huge pressures put upon them by their lazy drunken and able families to return hard cash fast. There is no end to their ignorant consumptions. many times a girl is sent to a restaurant at 12 and off to the massage at 17. They dutiful send money back to mom and the drunken papa and brothers - and of course KIDS.

I met a very handsome young man (n european) hanging around a bar I used to frequent. He was boasting he did not pay for this (new) girl in the bar and was off to ko chang in a few hours. I explained to him that she was: to shy to ask you should have just given it is expected, she need not beg for her wage, she was playing you for a long time (days) instead of overnighter, she was playing you to give more than the 800-1000 baht "up to you". In the end, he paid nothing and walked put to his bus proud and arrogant. poor sao... the entire bar (all the girls) let out a moan when he (and his friend) left (like what an F'er!!) - she could care less about what he looked like or how he was (not) in bed. Its all about the money.

So if you are not old enough to 'need' to pay for it, maybe you can at least appreciate that even someone like me who has had his share of freebies (from long term drinking lady-friends) always pays. why would I not want to help someone I like and want good things for?

I cant wait till your 45 - Youll be married to a lump with a few brats, but happily - you wont be paying for it. At least, in your eyes. For me, that life your nothing but paying for it.

Edited November 14, 2007 by luumak

[Samuian]

Very well posted. That attitude belongs to the generations of our mothers and grandmothers, not ours, thank the universe.

Not trying to be offensive, but is this a female posting - guess yes and then it's all very understandable - it doesn't put females in a wrong light - it's all o.k. but it's just a matter of fact with very rare exceptions, if I ever come across one I change my mindand let you know!

[TonyLeung]

luumak,

this might sound crazy and blow your mind so maybe you should down first. Ok, are you sitting down?

not everyone goes to bars to meet female company.

Breathe in and out slowly, its going to be Ok.

many of us have relationships with independent, educated Thai women who can stand on their own two feet.

Breath in and out slowly, you aren't going to die. The sun will still set tonight and rise tomorrow.

[TonyLeung]

Have you guys considered that you have certain characteristics or qualities that cause the women who aren't interested solely in money to avoid you?

[Pepe']

While standing in a queue at a cafe in Italy my wife and I where chatting in Thai, a woman in front of us, a total stranger, turned out to also be Thai, turned to speak to my wife.

Question 1. You are Thai?

Question 2. Is he Italian?

Question 3. Do you live here or are you on holiday?

Quesiton 4. How much money does he give you?

And as my wife relates, this is not the first time that she has been asked this quesiton. She tells me she is asked the same quesiton by almost every Thai woman she knows who is married to a foreigner.

Almost - the people who don't ask are the people who did not start their relationship with a financial transaction.

But let's not fudge the issue. Sharing the costs of life, and the child care and all the other load to be shared by a couple making their way through life together is not the same thing as buying a relationsip.

But you know I can understand the thinking of the women in these 'cash' relationships, I just don't understand the thinking of the men?

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Pepe. Your account of the history of Prostitutes is at odds with the historical record. Or at least you are being extremely selective in your refernces.

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I've been a student of Chinese and Indian culture for many, many years now.

The History Channel just ran a very nice one hour program a couple of weeks ago " The History of Sex" where this was all discussed in great detail.

Maybe you can "Google It."

It was very nicely done...

[Pepe']

"Prostitutes have been and integral part of Asian culture for thousands of years."

I guess you'd be OK with your wife and daughter working as prostitutes.

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No but I was OK doing your mother last night.

Always liked a good "gum job."

[hiromj]

"Prostitutes have been and integral part of Asian culture for thousands of years."

I guess you'd be OK with your wife and daughter working as prostitutes.

-----------------

No but I was OK doing your mother last night.

Always liked a good "gum job."

Ouch, that hurt. That's going to leave a mark.

[Lost in LOS]

Have you guys considered that you have certain characteristics or qualities that cause the women who aren't interested solely in money to avoid you?

tony,

I pay young beautiful women to have sex with me. some actually like me and i still pay them, they need it. I also pay for all my legal software

i see you buy illegal software but dont pay for sex, guess we all have our vices so how about live and let live tony

[JimsKnight]

This subject always crops up, I think that until every westerner who lives in LOS 'de-programs' themselves from the western bs mentality the better.

Thats no offense to you Damien but here in the east it's a different ballpark.

Many women here expect the man to 'take care', be it monetary or whatever. Anyone who says different is applying western ideas and the feminist ways to Thailand (which will never take hold BTW).

From what I've experienced, the 'nice girls' tend to run you around the block with the dating game and it costs many times more than a BG would.

Essentially when I was in BKK ( The city of sex!) I was hooked up with a thai chick and was not paying a dime, I'd moved in with her, everything seemed hunky dory *however* she cooled the relationship down and it ended.

I later learned that the apartment (where she would have the aircon on 24/7) wasn't even hers. She was some poo yai's mia noi and he'd rolled back into town!

Came to CM and the same thing again! I must be a sucker for these sugar girls!

So someone else was paying, I might not of been, but some dude was!

Everything costs money so someones gotta pay, simple economics folks!

Asia is not the west, if you watch thai movies and even some thai TV you'll see elements of the 'paying for it' vibe on there too. Its usually in the happy-go-lucky style that gets everyone laughing too

Women marrying 'down' is unusual in Thailand but not unheard of.

The best girlfriends I've had in LOS have either been orphans or totally disassociated with the meddling family unit.

It's often just a gross hinderance and a licence to print money .

A girl I know has told me that she has no financial hardship because she doesn't have to keep sending cash back home to mummy and daddy. She's a single mom and only earns 5000 baht per month and has a kid as well!

Whenever I'm not sure of what the deal is with a thai chick. I go and speak to the thai dudes (poo yais) and see what they think. I don't always follow what they think, but I listen!

Asking westerners all the time will only get you a western response (unless they're embedded expats), ask the easterners i.e the thais if you need this sort of guidance further.

Edited November 14, 2007 by JimsKnight

[TonyLeung]

Have you guys considered that you have certain characteristics or qualities that cause the women who aren't interested solely in money to avoid you?

tony,

I pay young beautiful women to have sex with me. some actually like me and i still pay them, they need it. I also pay for all my legal software

i see you buy illegal software but dont pay for sex, guess we all have our vices so how about live and let live tony

i didn't condemn anyone for paying for sex, just for claiming that all Thai women all prostitutes and demand money for their company.

[a2396]

I don't know whether to pity or make fun of you sad saps.

What "sad saps"? Because they are dumb enough to pay Thai lady money or because they are complaining about it? I suppose you are a "real man" & pay 'em nothing.

[WaiWai]

There are currently a few topics in the Gay sub-forum in which you'll find some very insightful observations from posters who have good self-understanding and good understanding of Thai/Asian - Farang dynamics :

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=149886

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=151766

One very important aspect of "paying for it" financially is that it gives the payer a measure of control over the payee. They can be "boss" in the interaction, whether short-term or much longer.

At the same time, paying financially exempts the person from other emotional/"moral" obligations, and lets the payer feel they're not in danger of emotional manipulation, that is of "paying" in psychological ways.

Edited November 14, 2007 by WaiWai

[TonyLeung]

I don't know whether to pity or make fun of you sad saps.

What "sad saps"? Because they are dumb enough to pay Thai lady money or because they are complaining about it? I suppose you are a "real man" & pay 'em nothing.

Thats it. Keep going until it makes you feel better. Perhaps I can inspire you to make a Stickman Bangkok reader's submission.