Motorcy

[begsaresponse]

Sorry I think Saigon has it much worse.......

Agreed.

Having lived in quite a few Asian countries,,the motorbike is a way of life,,,,it will not change until oil runs out and by that time people are back on bikes or donkeys.

Now theres an opening ,,!

I cant fault motorbikes,,,,,transport for the masses. Far more friendly than three litre gas guts.

If there is a complaint to be made it is against the mentality of the rider,,the motorbike is just a machine.....bless its soul .

You got it in one......"the mentality of the rider".....says it all for me!

[Manchester]

And yes you might have guessed but I drive a vehicle with four wheels.

But today I was shocked one motorcy driver gave a hand signal...now it was not of the two finger variety but a proper right turn hand signal. Now that was a first I have ever seen in Pattaya!

Well I have had my rant which has been a long time coming. Whats your opinion?

I think they are pissed off at 4 wheel gas guzzlers like you who expect an asian country to conform to western ideals and standards.

Oil is a finite resource and as such your type of vehicle will be off the road and obsolete long before Motorcy,s

Whats my opinion? I,m not allowed to post what i think about your comments without being BARRED.

[NanLaew]

Pattaya has always had 'contraflow' motorcycles, it's the sheer volume of them that now makes the streets more perilous. The prime contributor to this 2-wheeled mayhem is your average motorcycle taxi guy. Why is this? These buggers work from specific locations where they pay some kind of 'rent' to some entity to be based there. So they get a fare and off they go to some market or soi on the other side of town. After he drops the fare, what does he do? He rides back to his point of departure EMPTY. You notice that at any one time, these buggers are whizzing about solo, racing back to their 'base' as they (just like Bangkok taxis) cannot pick up a fare from anyplace that they aren't based or else they will get a hiding. If the city fathers permitted them to operate in the first place, then make them more efficient by allowing them to work like a regular cab or baht bus.

[Manchester]

Pattaya has always had 'contraflow' motorcycles, it's the sheer volume of them that now makes the streets more perilous. The prime contributor to this 2-wheeled mayhem is your average motorcycle taxi guy. Why is this? These buggers work from specific locations where they pay some kind of 'rent' to some entity to be based there. So they get a fare and off they go to some market or soi on the other side of town. After he drops the fare, what does he do? He rides back to his point of departure EMPTY. You notice that at any one time, these buggers are whizzing about solo, racing back to their 'base' as they (just like Bangkok taxis) cannot pick up a fare from anyplace that they aren't based or else they will get a hiding. If the city fathers permitted them to operate in the first place, then make them more efficient by allowing them to work like a regular cab or baht bus.

Yeah. Crap ain,t it?

I can,t understand for the life of me why i would be in Thailand.

There again...............i could be back home in Manchester Uk............accidentally cut someone up or make a driving mistake and then have to fear about a 10 block road rage chase through the city by some homicidal lunatic intent on beating the crap out of me at the next traffic lights.

I prefer Thailand. Let the motorcy,s go and mai pen rai khrab.

[soihok]

Plus ice on the inside of the windows first thing in the morning during Winter.

You,re right.

Better off on Thailand,,by far.

[piker]

If the city fathers permitted them to operate in the first place, then make them more efficient by allowing them to work like a regular cab or baht bus.

The baht bus honks enough as it is. Each motorcy would be honking and making abrupt stops to claim a passenger. In short time, fights would break out amongst drivers. They're closer to animal than human IMO.

[patsfangr]

And yes you might have guessed but I drive a vehicle with four wheels.

But today I was shocked one motorcy driver gave a hand signal...now it was not of the two finger variety but a proper right turn hand signal. Now that was a first I have ever seen in Pattaya!

Well I have had my rant which has been a long time coming. Whats your opinion?

I think they are pissed off at 4 wheel gas guzzlers like you who expect an asian country to conform to western ideals and standards.

Oil is a finite resource and as such your type of vehicle will be off the road and obsolete long before Motorcy,s

Whats my opinion? I,m not allowed to post what i think about your comments without being BARRED.

As correctly pointed out by Brit earlier, nobody is complaining about the MACHINE! The problem is the ignorance of, and indifference to the traffic laws, and common sense safety precautions, of the vast majority of motorbike DRIVERS. It is not the finite nature of oil resources that creates the problem. It's the finite nature of the brain matter within the skulls of motorbike drivers!

[patsfangr]

I'll say it one more time, for those of you who either don't understand, or choose to ignore the obvious. There are 3 things required to make the streets of Pattaya reasonably safe, and significantly improve the flow of traffic. They are:

1. Improve the laws that govern the operation of all motor vehicles, including motorbikes.

2. Increase the penalties for violations of those laws.

3. Effectively enforce those laws; including the requirements for licenses, and helmets.

At this top, general, level, it's not complicated; and it most certainly should not be controversial.

[Manchester]

I'll say it one more time, for those of you who either don't understand, or choose to ignore the obvious. There are 3 things required to make the streets of Pattaya reasonably safe, and significantly improve the flow of traffic. They are:

1. Improve the laws that govern the operation of all motor vehicles, including motorbikes.

2. Increase the penalties for violations of those laws.

3. Effectively enforce those laws; including the requirements for licenses, and helmets.

At this top, general, level, it's not complicated; and it most certainly should not be controversial.

EVERY foreigner understands. You are just rehashing a really old subject. It will change when Thailand wants it to change. All the moaning and whining by foreigners is not going to change anything. Period.

Ever been to Vietnam? As a foreigner...........if you have an accident.........ITS YOUR FAULT. Period.

[begsaresponse]

I'll say it one more time, for those of you who either don't understand, or choose to ignore the obvious. There are 3 things required to make the streets of Pattaya reasonably safe, and significantly improve the flow of traffic. They are:

1. Improve the laws that govern the operation of all motor vehicles, including motorbikes.

2. Increase the penalties for violations of those laws.

3. Effectively enforce those laws; including the requirements for licenses, and helmets.

At this top, general, level, it's not complicated; and it most certainly should not be controversial.

EVERY foreigner understands. You are just rehashing a really old subject. It will change when Thailand wants it to change. All the moaning and whining by foreigners is not going to change anything. Period.

Ever been to Vietnam? As a foreigner...........if you have an accident.........ITS YOUR FAULT. Period.

What will bring about change then? As far as I can tell there is no magic wand! It takes effort,time,people,debate. Certainly dismissing 'debate' is folly!

[NanLaew]

If the city fathers permitted them to operate in the first place, then make them more efficient by allowing them to work like a regular cab or baht bus.

The baht bus honks enough as it is. Each motorcy would be honking and making abrupt stops to claim a passenger. In short time, fights would break out amongst drivers. They're closer to animal than human IMO.

I said "work like a regular cab or baht bus" and I should have said "work like a REGULATED cab or baht bus". If you add

4. Regulate the current public transportation systems in Pattaya.

to patsfangr's list, then it makes a bit more sense.

Edited November 18, 2007 by NanLaew

[Manchester]

What will bring about change then? As far as I can tell there is no magic wand! It takes effort,time,people,debate. Certainly dismissing 'debate' is folly!

I am not dismissing debate. It has its purposes.

What I am saying is that debate by foreigners in Thailand will make no difference to Thai "traffic laws".

A couple of months ago i dropped my child off at B.E.S.T school in Pattaya.

All of the students were on assembly in the playground. The Thai principal was publically berating a couple of Thai/Farang students for arriving at the school on a motorcy with no helmet. Public humiliation.

Just as he finished..........a Thai teacher arrived at the school, a little late, on a motorcy with no helmet.

The whole place collapsed in laughter. It would be funny if it wasn,t so tragic.

[begsaresponse]

So Manchester is there any way of knowing if the teacher was also taken to task?

[Manchester]

So Manchester is there any way of knowing if the teacher was also taken to task?

I don,t know. I was to busy in the toilets pissing myself laughing.

I doubt it somehow. Too much loss of face.

[nolifer]

Once you have tried riding around on a MC in bangkok you learn to appriciate the calm traffic on the sois in pattaya

The only thing that pisses me off is usually the bahtbusses, totally screws up the traffic....

And how come it´s only farangs in their 50-80´s having problem crossing the roads safely, maybe it´s time to addapt to the traffic here in thailand ? yeah thats the second thing that pisses me off when riding a MC over here - farangs walking around like the road was made for pedestrians

[Manchester]

Once you have tried riding around on a MC in bangkok you learn to appriciate the calm traffic on the sois in pattaya

The only thing that pisses me off is usually the bahtbusses, totally screws up the traffic....

And how come it´s only farangs in their 50-80´s having problem crossing the roads safely, maybe it´s time to addapt to the traffic here in thailand ? yeah thats the second thing that pisses me off when riding a MC over here - farangs walking around like the road was made for pedestrians

True.

I was driving perfectly slowly and sensibly on South Pattaya Road. A bunch of drunk foreigners staggering around in the middle of the road. Tried to drive past slowly but one staggered into my path and my wing mirror clipped him.

Stopped the car and my wife jumped out and said " Kor tot , Kor tot "

I jumped out and called him a freekin idiot.

[Humphrey Bear]

Once you have tried riding around on a MC in bangkok you learn to appriciate the calm traffic on the sois in pattaya

The only thing that pisses me off is usually the bahtbusses, totally screws up the traffic....

And how come it´s only farangs in their 50-80´s having problem crossing the roads safely, maybe it´s time to addapt to the traffic here in thailand ? yeah thats the second thing that pisses me off when riding a MC over here - farangs walking around like the road was made for pedestrians

My story is on another thread.

I came out of RGP, walking back along Second Road towards South Pattaya Road.

Saw a comfortable gap in the traffic at a marked crossing. Two Sawng Thaews approaching at a reasonable speed, giving me time to get across safely.

Unfortunately I could not see the idiot motorcy' rider behind the ST's, doing about 60-70 kph. I was 3/4 of the way across when this idiot swooped past the Sawng Thaews (already behind me, but not yet at the marked crossing) and he stood no chance of avoiding me. Took my legs from under me, I did a somersault and landed on my arms. He rode away at the same speed. Luckily a couple of passers=by helped me to the side and then I slowly recovered. Lots of scrapes and bruises, but I am basically OK. Pity I hadn't been a skip full of sand or similar, which the mo'cy' rider wiould have found much less forgiving than my ankles and shins.

Why not reduce the gearing and speed of motorcycles to that of town speed limits?

[Kerryd]

Long before I actually bought my moto, I travelled everywhere around town using mostly moto-taxis. I did this to learn how the locals operate, having seen them do just about everything that would be considered illegal back home.

After a couple of months, I finally bought my moto (Phantom 200cc). For the first couple of weeks I would get up early in the morning and take trips out to Jomtien and other places where there wasn't a lot of traffic at that time. The first time I drove down soi 17 in midday, the "pucker" factor was in high mode, but I made it safely. Then the g/f decided I should drive her down #2 Road one afternoon. Again, nervous as he_ll and very cautious the whole way but made it safely.

Since then I drive all over town at all hours with no problems. I try to set a good example (use my signals, wear my helmet, try not to hit anyone that looks like they can afford a lawyer, etc).

For me, the moto is much more convenient than a 4 wheeler (car or truck). Went out on night with a couple friends in buddy's SUV. We drove from his club down to Marine Plaza, up soi VC, down soi 17, back to Marine Plaza and finally back around to his club to park the SUV, as we couldn't find a spot to park anywhere. We ended up hopping on some moto-taxis.

Could you imagine the chaos if this place was like it is in many places in the West, where cars are everywhere, and motos are far and few between ? The huge increase in traffic problems (accidents and traffic jams), the lack of parking (where 6 motos can park, you can get 1 small car), more pollution, higher fuel usage and so on.

It would be nice if everyone would drive in a nice, safe manner, but it would only work if everyone drove like that (Thai, farang, motos, cars. etc). The worst drivers I've seen (car and moto) have been drunk farangs renting out the huge 1200cc rice rockets and over-sized jeeps, then driving around drunk as though being a rich tourist means the laws don't apply to them.

Having said that though, the only accident I've been in was while riding as a passenger on a moto-taxi, riding up soi 17 when a pick-up turned onto the soi without stopping or even slowing down. The moto clipped the rear of the truck and started to go down. I was able to kind of stand up and do a couple of hops, skips and jumps and keep my balance, and was able to grab the driver just before he did a face plant on his machine. He then turned around and started yelling at the pickup, which, of course, kept driving down the soi as though he owned it. Fortunately the only damage was a cracked front mud guard and a few scratches.

As for people driving without helmets. I remember when seeing people wearing helmets anywhere used to be a rarity. Now it is the exception to see people (especially on the main roads) without helmets. Off the main streets though, helmets are usually ignored (and you tend to see a lot more kids driving around the neighbourhood as well).

I think everyone (foreign at least) would like to see major improvements in the traffic situation here, but I highly doubt anything major will change in the near future (being the next 10 years or so).

[esprit]

Anybody who rides on 2 wheels rather than 4, irrespective whether it be Thailand or elswhere in the world,are showing a total disregard to their own safety anyway. Thailand and other countries would be a much safer place without them, the statistics prove it.

[patsfangr]

Long before I actually bought my moto, I travelled everywhere around town using mostly moto-taxis. I did this to learn how the locals operate, having seen them do just about everything that would be considered illegal back home.

After a couple of months, I finally bought my moto (Phantom 200cc). For the first couple of weeks I would get up early in the morning and take trips out to Jomtien and other places where there wasn't a lot of traffic at that time. The first time I drove down soi 17 in midday, the "pucker" factor was in high mode, but I made it safely. Then the g/f decided I should drive her down #2 Road one afternoon. Again, nervous as he_ll and very cautious the whole way but made it safely.

Since then I drive all over town at all hours with no problems. I try to set a good example (use my signals, wear my helmet, try not to hit anyone that looks like they can afford a lawyer, etc).

For me, the moto is much more convenient than a 4 wheeler (car or truck). Went out on night with a couple friends in buddy's SUV. We drove from his club down to Marine Plaza, up soi VC, down soi 17, back to Marine Plaza and finally back around to his club to park the SUV, as we couldn't find a spot to park anywhere. We ended up hopping on some moto-taxis.

Could you imagine the chaos if this place was like it is in many places in the West, where cars are everywhere, and motos are far and few between ? The huge increase in traffic problems (accidents and traffic jams), the lack of parking (where 6 motos can park, you can get 1 small car), more pollution, higher fuel usage and so on.

It would be nice if everyone would drive in a nice, safe manner, but it would only work if everyone drove like that (Thai, farang, motos, cars. etc). The worst drivers I've seen (car and moto) have been drunk farangs renting out the huge 1200cc rice rockets and over-sized jeeps, then driving around drunk as though being a rich tourist means the laws don't apply to them.

Having said that though, the only accident I've been in was while riding as a passenger on a moto-taxi, riding up soi 17 when a pick-up turned onto the soi without stopping or even slowing down. The moto clipped the rear of the truck and started to go down. I was able to kind of stand up and do a couple of hops, skips and jumps and keep my balance, and was able to grab the driver just before he did a face plant on his machine. He then turned around and started yelling at the pickup, which, of course, kept driving down the soi as though he owned it. Fortunately the only damage was a cracked front mud guard and a few scratches.

As for people driving without helmets. I remember when seeing people wearing helmets anywhere used to be a rarity. Now it is the exception to see people (especially on the main roads) without helmets. Off the main streets though, helmets are usually ignored (and you tend to see a lot more kids driving around the neighbourhood as well).

I think everyone (foreign at least) would like to see major improvements in the traffic situation here, but I highly doubt anything major will change in the near future (being the next 10 years or so).

Thanks for that, Kerry. As is usual from you, it was an overall excellent, factual, logical post. I do have a couple point with which I'd like to take issue; and a couple to which I want to add applause!

APPLAUSE! - Thank you for your commitment safe, law abiding operation of your bike! (And a little applause for you wisdom in avoiding "targets" who might be lawyered up!)

(reserved) APPLAUSE - Your point regarding the chaos that would result here if the vehicular traffic were all, or primarily, 4-wheeled vehicles. I say "reserved" only because I WISH it weren't true. I personally believe that, even in largely law abiding traffic environments, like my So Cal home, motorbikes/cycles create a much more unsafe environment, if only because of their far less obvious presence in moving traffic. (Bikes are far more likely to find that "blind spot" for most car drivers.)

ROUSING APPLAUSE!! - Your comments regarding drunk drivers couldn't be more accurate or frustrating. This, of course, is true everywhere in the world. But it is magnified in this, and all other "tourist" areas, where there is always a high percentage of people who are partying. That is, after all, what they're here for. The unfortunate fact is that so many of those who come to Pattaya are prone to rent vehicles, especially motorbikes, rather than use public transportation (of any kind). Before I moved here about 19 months ago, I had visited many times, since my Thai wife and I had been married, and living in the USA, for 34 years. Until I purchased a car last June, I had NEVER driven in Thailand. Every time I vacationed (when not staying with family), we used public transportation. That was in Phuket, Pattaya, Koh Samui, Chiang Mai, and Bangkok. Of course, I wasn't here on drunken binges; but I do drink, and enjoyed the freedom of being able to "party hearty" when I chose to, and never endanger my wife, myself, or others. I wish all tourists would adopt that attitude.

(That said, I have to say that I believe there is an unfortunately high percentage of rowdy drunks who choose to take up residence in this area, for fairly obvious reasons. They are, IMO, as much, if not more, of a problem in this drunk driving issue than are tourists. Sorry, but that's my observation. He-ll, there are many of them who virtually BOAST about their drunk driving in this forum!)

TAKING ISSUE - I don't agree at all with your estimates regarding the use of helmets. But let me first state that the law for what qualifies as a "helmet" is outrageously inadequate. My disagreement is based upon actual counts. You see, my wife is a very ... umm ... "careful" shopper. Each item she considers buying must be inspected as thoroughly as though it were an electronic part for a space shuttle! So, I often spend a great deal of time waiting for her in the car (when I can find a shaded spot to park). On several occasions, I have passed some time by literally taking a count - "helmet", "no helmet", of motorbike drivers and passengers going by. If a bike has even one passenger without a helmet, it counts as a "no". (Sadly, so many have helmetted parents, with a bare headed child/infant between them!) Based upon this "scientific study", I will agree with you that the numbers for "helmetted" bikes are significantly higher west of Sukhumvit, than they are east of Sukhumvit, where I live. But the averages are both horrific. I have it at about 70& WITH helmets on the west side; and about 50% WITH helmets on the east side. Same is true for the percentage of what appear to be underaged children driving bikes. Many more on the east side; but still far too many on the west side.

REGRET - I can't qualify this as "applause", since it saddens (and frustrates) me so much. I have to agree with your closing comment that major improvements are unlikely within the next several years. And yet, as I detailed in an earlier post in this thread, I honestly don't believe that significant improvement would be that difficult to achieve. It lacks only an honest commitment by the government to do so. Here in Pattaya, as long as they're making money, order and safety, much like road maintenance and other infrastructure issues, are a very, very low priority.

[nolifer]

Anybody who rides on 2 wheels rather than 4, irrespective whether it be Thailand or elswhere in the world,are showing a total disregard to their own safety anyway. Thailand and other countries would be a much safer place without them, the statistics prove it.

Great idea, and all should be driving around in SUV´s, preferably 1 person in each car

[Kerryd]

Anybody who rides on 2 wheels rather than 4, irrespective whether it be Thailand or elswhere in the world,are showing a total disregard to their own safety anyway. Thailand and other countries would be a much safer place without them, the statistics prove it.

Let's say that in some alternate reality, motorcycles are banned (or don't exist). What would the statistics prove then ? That driving/riding in 4 wheeled vehicles is more dangerous than other modes of transport ? Then what, calls for getting rid of 4 wheeled vehicles to make the world a safer place ?

Then what ? Statistics would show that public transit is more dangerous than other modes of transport. So would you advocate for getting rid of public transit as well, to make the world a safer place ?

Here's a statistic for you. 39% of all traffic deaths (16,885 people) in the USA in 2005 were alcohol-related. The world would be a safer place if we could keep drunks off the road.

One thing you always have to remember when quoting statistics. You will rarely, if ever, get all the numbers. When people commission polls and studies, they usually have an agenda, and will be extremely reluctant to show any numbers/results that might cast doubt on that agenda. The stuff that helps prove their case will be cast in big, bold letters, and the rest will be ignored, regardless of how much there is.

While I agree that quite often, motorcyclists (and cyclists) are often their own worst enemies, car/truck drivers can be every bit as bad, if not worse. Too many drivers get behind the wheel and tune out the rest of the world, becoming oblivious to other traffic, pedestrians, animals and even stationary objects (trees, light poles, etc). Remember that case not too long ago in England, where the girl was caught on camera, speeding along the M5 (?) while putting on her make-up ? Want to bet that she does that (or used to before being caught), on a regular basis ? I've seen stuff just as bad in Canada. To be fair, I've also seen cyclists and motorcyclists doing things that should have them taken off the road as well.

It's a two way street, where everyone, regardless of what they are driving, could do a lot to improve the situation.

[farangtingtong]

Beware,

if you are the happy owner of a motorbike/car and willingly lending you vehicle to someone, please remind that if this someone causes an accident or damage to a 3rd party, the official holder of the green book is responsible and that might be you!!

If your motorbike is "borrowed" for an uncertain period of time, go to the police and ask for a statement, that the bike is no longer in your possession. This will free you from possible future claims, e.g. loss of income or other damage which isn't covered by the insurance.