Retirement Visa --announcement From Pattaya Mail

[naka]

I guess immigration are only stating what they CAN ask for.

Too much paranoia here methinks.

Naka.

[Guderian]

I also read it as a copy of an ATM and/or credit card

statement

, and not a copy of the card itself.

Great!

After all the kerfuffle of previous threads/posts, I have scanned my Barclaycard, digitally removed the middle 8 digits (the same thing that Amazon does), and also digitally removed the CVV code from the back, and can print out a beautiful colour copy of a current credit card in my name that looks pretty secure to me. I understood from various posts, and also from Mr. Barry Kenyon's articles in the Pattaya rags, that a photocopy like this would be acceptable.

NOW they want a copy of a credit card statement??? That's plain daft, I never use my overseas credit cards in SEA unless it's an emergency, and my statements are sent to my UK address. The best I can offer is a printout of an on-line statement (again with numbers removed digitally), which to be honest is something that any idiot with a word processor could knock up in about 20 minutes flat. At least an actual credit card is a tiny bit more difficult to forge.

Oh well, in less than 3 weeks time it will be my turn at the Jomtien office.

[Jingthing]

I predict business as usual.

[brahmburgers]

have an ATM card and a credit card.

...does not say it has to be an ATM or a credit card issued in Thailand.

The current gov't and its offices have been coming out with edicts at a steady clip - and often they rescind the pronouncements a day later. They have a distinct lack of thinking things through. For matters of immigration it would make sense to consult with farang who've been here awhile and are in touch with what's going on - but doing sensical things is not current (or past) administrations' forte.

It's easy to issue proclamations from on high - essentially asserting control. Whenever word gets out of someone reasonable working peripherally with Thai immigration, that person gets reprimanded. Whereas other governments are seeing the advantages (for everyone involved) to having a reasonable and fair protocol for accommodating foreign retirees, Thailand inches toward unnecessary and worrisome restrictions.

By the way, the OP press release says 'over 50'. Strickly speaking, a number over 50 is 51 and up. In other words, the number 50 is not over the number 50, is it? The number 50 is over the number 49. Ok, we're not talking mathematics, we're talking semantics.

[silverhawk_usa]

have an ATM card and a credit card.

...does not say it has to be an ATM or a credit card issued in Thailand.

The current gov't and its offices have been coming out with edicts at a steady clip - and often they rescind the pronouncements a day later. They have a distinct lack of thinking things through. For matters of immigration it would make sense to consult with farang who've been here awhile and are in touch with what's going on - but doing sensical things is not current (or past) administrations' forte.

It's easy to issue proclamations from on high - essentially asserting control. Whenever word gets out of someone reasonable working peripherally with Thai immigration, that person gets reprimanded. Whereas other governments are seeing the advantages (for everyone involved) to having a reasonable and fair protocol for accommodating foreign retirees, Thailand inches toward unnecessary and worrisome restrictions.

By the way, the OP press release says 'over 50'. Strickly speaking, a number over 50 is 51 and up. In other words, the number 50 is not over the number 50, is it? The number 50 is over the number 49. Ok, we're not talking mathematics, we're talking semantics.

First, I agree with your post. But, just to play semantics with you. In regard to age, wouldn't you be over 50 every day past your birthday? 50 and a day, 50 and a month? thus over 50.

[wpcoe]

Please note, to those who keep bringing up the idea that they are asking for copies of credit cards, the statement does not ask for a copy of a credit card or bank card:

the event of requiring a copy of an ATM and credit card statement,

I agree with your (sbk's) statement, but as I pondered above, if you try to take that the quoted phrase from Immigrations literally, it makes no sense: What is an ATM statement?

Having "statement" singular is strange when "and" is used, too.

Or, of course it could also be read as "...requiring a copy of an ATM and [a copy of a] credit card statement," which is even more bizarre.

My point is that the statement as made really cannot be used to determine much of anything. It was made by a non-native-English-speaking person, and we are native English speakers only second guessing the real intent and meaning.

[Maestro]

...It's easy to issue proclamations from on high...

In this particular case it is a “proclamation” from down low, from the lowly Jomtien immigration office. The people high up do not know about it, or if they know they do not care.

...By the way, the OP press release says 'over 50'. Strickly speaking, a number over 50 is 51 and up.

“more than 50 years old” means not less than 50 years and 0.01 second old. The official rule, paragraph 7.21 of National Police Order 606/2549, says “not less than 50 years old”.

--

Maestro

[WilliamIV]

Surely it is common to refer to a Credit Card when actually meaning a Debit Card.

One can see this on many Websites

And the mention of ATM Card - well one uses Credit Cards and Debit Cards in ATMs ...

All it means to me is that the Immigration - if having Doubts about an individual

MAY ask to see the Bank Statement from which he draws money into Thailand thru ATMs

Bill

Edited November 24, 2007 by WilliamIV

[Jingthing]

I would guess (reading tea leaves again) that in some cases they might want to see the actual cash flow into a foreign bank account in a bank statement of a claimed pension payment if they are not convinced by the embassy letter. It also sounds like a certain bias for those just showing the full amount of money in a Thai bank account. That is real.

Edited November 24, 2007 by Jingthing

[Lickey]

Wasnt there a post like this before that you had to prove that your money came from outside of Thailand?at that time, i e-mailed my UK bank {Nationwide} and asked them to send details of all my Swift tranfers to Kasikorn bank, which they did in 5 days, got a nice headed snail mail letter with all the details on, Presented this at Nong Khai imm with all the usual papers and got another 1 year visa with no 90 day reporting, This was with 800k in book 3 months prior to application, and was September this year, perhaps things have changed again?

[Dave the Dude]

Presented this at Nong Khai imm with all the usual papers and got another 1 year visa with no 90 day reporting, This was with 800k in book 3 months prior to application, and was September this year, perhaps things have changed again?

Hi Lickey

Sorry for being stupid but what Visa extention does NOT have 90 reporting??

Dave

[Lite Beer]

Presented this at Nong Khai imm with all the usual papers and got another 1 year visa with no 90 day reporting, This was with 800k in book 3 months prior to application, and was September this year, perhaps things have changed again?

Hi Lickey

Sorry for being stupid but what Visa extention does NOT have 90 reporting??

Dave

I think Lickey should get back to Nong Khai pretty quick before he gets a 2000 Baht fine.

[maxman71]

Immigration announces new requirements for retirement visas

Sawittree Namwiwatsuk

The Immigration authorities have issued new requirements for foreigners wishing to apply for a retirement visa, including the need to have an ATM card and a credit card.

Pol Lt. Samruay Saman, deputy inspector at Pattaya Immigration announced the new rules on November 12.

Pol. Lt. Samruay Saman, deputy inspector at Pattaya Immigration

Applicants using visa application form TM 7 have to enclose their passport, a 4 x 6 cm photograph, 1,900 baht fee, proof of income (certificate of bank deposit and bank book savings account, or a fixed account for at least the last three months), and proof of an appropriate amount of money from abroad through the bank in a certain period of time, such as a certificate of transfer from abroad or copy of a banking transfer order.

In the event of having any dependents such as a husband, a wife or children, then the relationship certificate approval with Thai translation certified by the embassy or consulate must be presented.

The authorities reserve the right to ask for any additional necessary documents in the event of requiring a copy of an ATM and credit card statement, a bank statement, a bank book, and a certificate of pension from the embassy in the event the source of such an amount cannot be checked.

Regulations for taking into consideration a foreign applicant’s extension for staying in Thailand require that the foreigner be more than 50 years old, and not forbidden to enter into the kingdom. The foreigner must have financial proof of a deposited amount of no less than 800,000 baht, or a monthly income of no less than 65,000 baht, or an annual income of no less than 800,000 baht in total.

For more information please visit www.immigration.go.th

IF this annoucement is followed by action in keeping with the letter of this announcement, then it seems pretty straightforward:

1) If you can produce official documented evidence (bank transfer statements) of income coming from abroad into your Thai bank account on monthly/regular basis, then I don't think they'll ask for credit card/ATM records.

2) The more you can document the source of the income from overseas the better; such as if it coming from a pension account, rental income from commercial property you own, annuities, Trusts, etc.

3) If you cannot provide such solid documentation, then getting a Thai credit card is where they can hamstring you. I think you need to have a Thai work permit in order to get a Thai CC, which means you work for a company that is sponsoring you for one, or you set up a Thai Limited Company, pay for B-1 Non-imm business visa, work permit charges, pay yourself the minimum 40,000THB/mo, have Thai employees that you pay at least the minimum wage and all the associated accounting charges, payroll/VAT form filings and income statements/tax returns for the Thai Limited Company. This is where it gets costly.

4) Once you get past these initial hurdles, the on-going renewal requirements seem pretty easy; 800,000 THB in a Thai bank.

What am I missing??? All I can say is I am glad I set up a Thai Limited Co. over 2 years ago when I arrived in Phuket (now living in Nakhon Pathom), and have been "paying the freight" for this "privilege" as outlined in #3 above. The real pain comes in for people who were simply staying here on the 30-day tourist visa for years on end and enjoying the fact the immigration rules weren't being enforced until about a year ago. When I arrived in Phuket over 2 years ago and saw all this non-enforcement taking place, the first thing that came to my mind was it was too good to be true and it would change sooner or later. I wish all of you who are scrambling to find the most economical way to deal with this new era of enforcement the best of luck.

[Dap]

I recently updated my retirement visa at the Chiang Mai office. The officer that took care of the matter was absolutely pleasant when he reviewed my 800k paperwork done 4 days prior, and told me to be sure to include a bank certification of that 800k three months prior to my visit next year, even though it was required this year. The Chiang Mai office really seems to go out of their way to make the situation as hassle free as possible (or), I've been very lucky with them for the past 15 years.

[maxman71]

These people honestly do not have a clue. Really, really.

A credit card proves absolutely nothing except a bank is willing to issue you xxxxx.xx credit. You can have really bad credit and still have a card. Millions do in the USA.

Further, if the Thai govt 'taps' on that credit (queries it as a check) that can damage your credit.

You can have a credit card and have NO money in the bank. You can have tens of millions and still only have a debit card.

As Thailand continues you rethink and expand its ever growing arsenal against Westerners living here it really should address it in some sort of logical, competent manner. The ignornace reflects poorly on the nation. Thailand really must push to have educated bureaucrats running the machine.

What I find astounding is that if the same criteria were to be applied for Thai's how many would be able to live in their own country? Basically, none. Now, I know this is apples and oranges but there is a certain truth to the over the top financial requirements and the daily changes in documentation not to mention what may (not) be needed at the local level. Its really Kafkaesque at this point.

I can't wait for the election and the business law to be decided :-)

I really don't think Thailand is trying to "expand its ever growing arsenal against Westerners living here". They are merely trying to enforce laws that have been on the books for a long time. Isn't that in itself a hallmark of a country trying to run its affairs more consistently and by rule of law?

[Yukhoh]

Mrs. Moon from Chiang Mai immigration bureau spoke to the Chiang Mai Expats Club, about beginning this year, explaining visa stuff.

She personally stated to me that the three month proof for the 800,000.- Baht is NOT required when applying for an extension of retirement visa. Only first time application. I think Jingting is right. But again the man who is right is sitting behind that desk, not standing in front.

[Jingthing]

I really don't think Thailand is trying to "expand its ever growing arsenal against Westerners living here". They are merely trying to enforce laws that have been on the books for a long time. Isn't that in itself a hallmark of a country trying to run its affairs more consistently and by rule of law?

Thank you sir, may I have another!

We are the targets, law abiding and not, and most of us are law abiding, but immigration police being POLICE naturally have a dark vision of humanity.

[maxman71]

I really don't think Thailand is trying to "expand its ever growing arsenal against Westerners living here". They are merely trying to enforce laws that have been on the books for a long time. Isn't that in itself a hallmark of a country trying to run its affairs more consistently and by rule of law?

Thank you sir, may I have another!

We are the targets, law abiding and not, and most of us are law abiding, but immigration police being POLICE naturally have a dark vision of humanity.

Sure, we are the targets of higher prices, etc. The way I look at it, if I'm gonna immigrate to a foreign country, I believe I need to be a "value-add" at least to a certain extent. Whether it be creating new job opportunities for the locals, spending $$ in their economy, etc. The fact is, Thailand still has a significant percentage of their population that is dirt-poor. They're gonna target us, regardless. Most other countries have pretty stringent immigration requirements, what's wrong with Thailand tightening their's up a little bit? It was like a sieve before. Being a 3rd generation CA, USA resident, the never-ending influx of illegal immigrants from Mexico are a huge problem and strain on various social services, the police, etc. I sure don't want to see that happen here.

[Jingthing]

She personally stated to me that the three month proof for the 800,000.- Baht is NOT required when applying for an extension of retirement visa. Only first time application. I think Jingting is right. But again the man who is right is sitting behind that desk, not standing in front.

Thank you!

I just someone official from immigration would just publish this in one of their notoriously vague pronouncements.

[Jingthing]

Being a 3rd generation CA, USA resident, the never-ending influx of illegal immigrants from Mexico are a huge problem and strain on various social services, the police, etc. I sure don't want to see that happen here.

How bloody ridiculous. There is no comparison whatsoever between the two situations. We are eligible for no social services whatsoever here and never will be.

[ronigere]

I wonder if this all has something to do do with the availability of false British Embassy letters which some VISA specialist providers are now offering in Pattaya A friend of mine was offered this servicce for a fee of course but proof of income was not required.The letters look genuine.

I dont have a creddit card but a Debit card and have paperless bankingbut can print out comprehensive statements from the internet banking

[scotsman]

When I changed from a marriage visa to a retirement visa last month I was asked for a copy of my credit card statement from outside Thailand to show where my pension income per month was. So may be its not a copy of credit card or Atm card, may be the wording is correct in this statement in the pattaya mail. We will only know when more posters come back from pattaya immigration with more information on how they got on with there retirement visa extension.

[grahamhc]

A few points as I see them.

1. As a retiree, I have a savings Book, as I need a WORK PERMIT to get a current account/

2. In my saving book it shows every transaction.

2a. There is a code for money entering Thailand on a Telegraph Transfer. It should also come INTO Thailand as Foreign currency, not converted at home - anyway the exchange rate is better that way.

2b. There is a code for CASH deposits (Where did this cash come from - keep you money exchange receipts of you cash Tc or you home currency, or they will think you EARNED it i Thailand)

2c.

[Jingthing]

2a. There is a code for money entering Thailand on a Telegraph Transfer. It should also come INTO Thailand as Foreign currency, not converted at home - anyway the exchange rate is better that way.

Yes, but some officers have been asking for more proof. I suggest getting a paper record from your Thai bank for every incoming receipt. If you have any record from your foreign bank, save that too (in my case, there is no record as I just place a phone call). Motto: it never hurts to have more paper work ready than you are likely to need, and only surrender extra documents on demand.

Edited November 25, 2007 by Jingthing

[canuckinbkk]

I am on the second year of my retirement visa. I live in BKK but I did my first renewal in Chiang Mai where the visa was originally issued. For the 3 months prior to my visa expiring, I did not have 800,000 Bht in my Thai bank account. I did top it up on the day before and the same day of my visit to immigration. For most of those 3 months I had only 600,000 bht in th account but I was actively adding cash up to the day of my renewal. I think as long as the majority of the money is there and they see activity (money being deposited) it isn't a huge problem to top it up just prior to your renewal date.

[grahamhc]

A few points as I see them. (Full version, as the first half posted as hit the wrong key !)

1. As a retiree, I have a Savings Account Bank Book, as I need a WORK PERMIT to get a current account!

2. In my saving account book it shows every transaction.

2a. There is a code for money entering Thailand on a Telegraph Transfer. It shows also that it came INTO Thailand as Foreign currency, not converted at home - anyway the exchange rate is better that way.

2b. There is a code for CASH deposits ("Where did this cash come from?" they will ask - keep you money exchange receipts of you cash TCs or your home currency, or they will think you EARNED it in Thailand)

2c. There is a code to show ATM withdrawals, complete with the bank branch code where you did it.

THEREFORE: Para 2a above shows the INCOMING FINANCES from aboard and Para 2c is in fact your ATM statement, and that is why they inspect you savings book, even though you have a letter from you Bank verifying the amount s GENUINE! (One year Pattaya (Jomtien) Immigration took photocopies of the transaction pages as I had only handed in the final page.

EXAMPLE: My old neighbour keep a static 800,000 Baht in his bank. When renewing (or should I say extending) his visa, at first they refused, as they wanted proof he was not working as they expect the amount in your account to go down during he year as you spend money on living. He then had to prove what money he was living on!

FINALLY, Immigration's "Only 800,000 Baht" scam. In reality, it went up to 1,000,000 Baht when the "3 months" rule appeared, as 3 months is 25% of a year, so 25% of 800,00 is 200,000, which make the requirement 1,000,000 Baht, unless you can live for free (No food, drink or accommodation) during that 3 months period.

[teacher]

I don't see what is new. Sounds like the same same to me.

You obviousley have not seen the request for a copy of your credit card have you. In fact they want to see a copy of the front and the back and also the ORIGIONAL.

I live here and my retirement visa runs out in April however my visa master card runs out in march 08. Now they are requesting we take the credit card to them and it must be current. therefore i must go home to the uk because i had all sorts of problems trying to get DHL OR TNT to post it to me. They point blank refused saying any other country but NOT Thailand. In the end my daughter brought it over for me.

Because dhl and tnt insure the transportation of the goods they have no cover for credit/visa/debit cards.

[Jingthing]

Teacher, that part about having the OPTION of asking for credit card details is NOT new. We have been talking about this for many weeks already. Also, depending on your method of qualifying I doubt you would have needed to show the card anyway. Especially if you are showing 800K in the bank. But I understand what you mean about problems with expiring cards, I have the same problems as of course many of us do.

Edited November 25, 2007 by Jingthing

[Naam]

EXAMPLE: My old neighbour keep a static 800,000 Baht in his bank. When renewing (or should I say extending) his visa, at first they refused, as they wanted proof he was not working as they expect the amount in your account to go down during he year as you spend money on living. He then had to prove what money he was living on!

that's only reasonable. what is there to complain about?

[brahmburgers]

I don't see what is new. Sounds like the same same to me.

You obviousley have not seen the request for a copy of your credit card have you. In fact they want to see a copy of the front and the back and also the ORIGIONAL.

I live here and my retirement visa runs out in April however my visa master card runs out in march 08. Now they are requesting we take the credit card to them and it must be current. therefore i must go home to the uk because i had all sorts of problems trying to get DHL OR TNT to post it to me. They point blank refused saying any other country but NOT Thailand. In the end my daughter brought it over for me.

Because dhl and tnt insure the transportation of the goods they have no cover for credit/visa/debit cards.

that's an eye-opener, that "They point blank refused saying any other country but NOT Thailand." a bit off-topic, but let's hope DHL / TNT and other express mail services (UPS / FEdEx, EMS, etc) get serious about making their services reliable. If they know there are thieves in their midst or in their employ, they better clean it up. I expect as much (thievery) from the Thai postal service, but thought private companies could keep their employees somewhat in line.