Two Tourists In Pai Shot By A Police Officer

[ChiangMaiAmerican]

There's the scant forensics from Canada; one hopes more details are forthcoming from that source, but they will tell us little or nothing about potentially relevant events leading up to the firing of the gun.

Forensics amy not be able to tell you about the sequence of events leading to the shooting but they may be able to tell you a lot about the position and location of the shooter relative to the victim(s). I have seen it happen in real life. In the present instance it can either serve to support of impeach the cop's version of events.

Edited January 17, 2008 by ChiangMaiAmerican

[thaiman]

Why are people so upset about this incident? This is Thailand, the land of craziness. What else can you expect from this place: Justice? Fairness? Equality? I can't see that ever happening here!

One of the more amazing posts I have read on TV.

Amazing Thailand!

[Arkady]

I attended university with the wife of a cop. In the minds of family and friends there is an excuse for everything that always makes unacceptable behavior by police acceptable. In the city I come from in the US cops are taken home if found driving while intoxicated rather than prosecuted. The local State Attorney has a dandy excuse why that is acceptable. They would lose their job if they were prosecuted. and we can't have that. He even exonerated a cop for shooting and nearly killing an unarmed truck driver after the truck criver accidently splashed the cop when he hit a puddle. This cop was also off duty and not in uniform. Even after the state equivalent of the FBI used foresenics to prove the shooting didn't happen at point blank in a life and death struggle as alleged by the cop but rather from a distance of 10 feet or more the state attorney prosecuted the truck driver anyway. Fortunately in the US there is a jury system. They didn't buy the cops story. Neither did the state investigators. Some people in any culture believe cops are infallible. They are not capable of seeing beyond their individual loyalties. Its how the system reacts to that belief thats important.

Interesting. Thai society does seem to be divided between those who are cops or friends and family of cops and the rest. Most of the rest loathe cops with an intensity only seen in the West amongst the criminal classes, while their friends and family will come up with any nonsense to justify anything police do. I used to know a Thai woman who whose father, a barely educated police sergeant, was head of an upcountry police station that was too small to have any commissioned officers. She used to regale me with stories about her parents who seemed to all intents and purposes to be running a small mafia organization in their district. They seemed to be involved in loan sharking, illegal logging and god knows what else. All the while her father hardly ever bothered to go the police station as he was busy running his other businesses. One day I told her that, if my parents behaved like, I would keep quiet about it but she still couldn't see any reason not to be proud of all their criminal achievements that had made them the biggest land owners in the district.

[sabaijai]

There's the scant forensics from Canada; one hopes more details are forthcoming from that source, but they will tell us little or nothing about potentially relevant events leading up to the firing of the gun.

Forensics amy not be able to tell you about the sequence of events leading to the shooting but they may be able to tell you a lot about the position and location of the shooter relative to the victim(s). I have seen it happen in real life. In the present instance it can either serve to support of impeach the cop's version of events.

Yes these are vital facts to know. They might just as easily impeach Reisig's version of events, by the way. Judging from independent reports, I'm leaning towards the thought that both versions are inaccurate.

Unfortunately position and location of the shooter won't tell us whether Reisig and her friends were fighting, whether Uthai asked them to calm down, whether he or they were assaulted, etc.

[Artfullmover]

Come to think of it, everyone arguing in favor of the cop has the same reading definciency and contiuously misses vital information, Permanent_Disorder, Barryman and you all do it, you only intake half the information and then start spouting untruths when the real information is posted for everyone to see clear as day.... strange. That's fine, but when someone points out the info you missed to contradict your statements you'd think you guys would be big enough to change what you were saying, but instead you just say "WHO CARES"!

Well Damian you seem quite opinionated and claim not to have a reading definciency. So who do you see who done what? You claim others have missed vital information.... (and so on). How about you give us unfortunates that have become a bit lost a play by play summary.

Myself I see the cop being guilty of murder and think its only the degree that needs to be worked out. I dont find favor in what he done but the contrution factors need to be extablished dont they.

I am NOT ready to brand the cop a complete low life as just yet. From reading between the lines about the "ladies" character it could be just possible he was acting in self defence from her reaction after the first shots were fired

Edited January 17, 2008 by meadish_sweetball
Fixed quote tags. /Meadish

[Claymore]

In this case, I don't believe anything or anyone that hasn't been corroborated by both parties or irrefutable evidence.

Then you have higher justice standards than any court system I've ever heard of. In the absence of counter-evidence, the testimony of eyewitnesses unrelated to the defendant or plaintiff is usually admissable. 'Irrefutable evidence' (I suppose you mean physical evidence?) is not a requisite. I understand that you think everyone in Pai is somehow biased, but I'm fairly certain a visit to Pai and discussions with the locals would soon convince you there's no conspiracy of silence, no fear of losing tourism (it's had no noticeable effect so far, and many in Pai would like to see less tourism at any rate) etc. In the meantime all you have to go on, Kat, is news media and ThaiVisa.com, unfortunately, and virtually everything you read from either source comes from eyewitness reports. There's the scant forensics from Canada; one hopes more details are forthcoming from that source, but they will tell us little or nothing about potentially relevant events leading up to the firing of the gun.

As for my acquaintance with any of the witnesses, I'll acknowledge that in any feature articles I may write (I'm not doing any news stories. I'm not a news reporter and never have been). It's the human interest aspect of the events that interest me most, as a writer, although as a concerned resident of Thailand, I'm also following the search for facts and like everyone else, I would like to see justice served.

I dont think anybody here has ever claimed people in Pai are biased. It makes sense not to give evidence against local police. How many witnesses have the police found who are not actually witnesses for the defence?

Dont think many of use are holding our breath for your story though. The Pai Post?

[Khun ?]

Yes these are vital facts to know. They might just as easily impeach Reisig's version of events, by the way. Judging from independent reports, I'm leaning towards the thought that both versions are inaccurate.

Unfortunately position and location of the shooter won't tell us whether Reisig and her friends were fighting, whether Uthai asked them to calm down, whether he or they were assaulted, etc.

SPECULATION

Sequence of events sounds misconstrued some what.

Maybe Boisteorus Reisig was confronted by the policeman and as before physical with the police she was hit.

Leo then tries to calm things down as Reisig is not going for being hit by the cop, cop is not taking the continued confrontational attitude of Resig and gets his gun to return to confront her. When he does she is still hostile and

goes at him again. Leo is trying to middleman the situation, Resig is shot at this point, Leo is at the gun being as

he was contstraining between two physical people.

This is what puts her at remembering Leo being at the gun, she falls, Leo is at the grasp of the gun as he was trying to stop

it before it come to the shooting and the cop fires into frantic Leo as he is trying to get Leo off the gun.

Maybe it was not intentional shots at Leo but just a reaction of trying to pull the gun back away from him.

Seems like one of Reisigs accounts was she don't know what happened and awakes Leo lieing shot next to her.

The part where Leo was shot, then cop turns around and shoots her does not put Leo lieing next to her if he had to turn to shoot her.

Something does not fit with her accounts of the situation.

Someone just comes up and punches her in the face, not a word said)

( The cop turns Around and shoots her and she ends up lieing next to Leo).

Edited January 17, 2008 by Khun ?
Fixed quote tags. All tags need one starting tag and one finishing tag. The start tag format is [exampletag] and the finishing tag format is [/exampletag]. /Meadish

[permanent_disorder]

Well most people here obviously DO CARE, otherwise we would not be following this thread and hoping to see justice done.

As far as I am aware, and I stand to be corrected, it has not yet been established that "anybody did try to take a gun from a cop" due to the conflicting reports.

Andiamo - Seriously, get informed first . Your posts are becoming ridiculous - please think before you post insane comments and speculations. Thank you.

okay here we go again:

i quote myself, and there are also other posts ponted out on the fact we know about the struggle for the gun, seems you read only the parts you want to believe and ignore the other things.

2. there is fight between them.

3. the fight is focused on getting control over the gun

We DON'T know that.

i think thats the only thing we know or can believe that this is true, because both side have been talking about it.

reisig : "... and got his gun, and Leo tried to get it away from him. "They had a struggle for the gun, then the man got control of the gun ..." (quoted from the nation article "SURVIVOR'S CLAIM Cop 'executed my best friend'")

Sgt-Major Uthai / Case investigator Pol Lt-Colonel Sombat Panya : "...Uthai pointed his service pistol to threaten away both foreigners, but del Pinto tried to snatch the pistol from him. After a scuffle, shots were fired and the couple went down." (quoted from same source)

this is the only exact match in the statements of both sides. a struggle/scuffle for the gun. that del pinto was grabing for the gun. that both men had their hands on the gun at the same time. this is all we know for sure. we don't know why they start to fight. we don't know how the shots have been fired.

we don't know if Uthai was ready to kill them and del pintos attempt to get the gun was the only offer he had to survive. but uthai didn't kill reisig and didn't kill her boyfriend. so maybe just hands up would have been a better solution?

i think is allways better to raise your hands up and disarm a gun pointing person just works in movie but end fatally in reality.

[Maestro]

I see this topic thriving on a lot of “maybe” and “perhaps” and other forms of speculation. There is no harm in this as long as we do not pre-judge any participant in the sad event purely on the basis of speculation or on the same basis ask for the Canadian government to send in the cavalry.

--

Maestro

[permanent_disorder]

I attended university with the wife of a cop...

ahh finally we have the wise words of an academic.

please send a PM to damianmavis, he have also a lot of stories about the police. i think both of you have a lot of serious evidence, that must go to the public, the press and the investigation team.

anyone else have ever pay a ticket to a police man? the wife of your neighbour, the police man, drive a bigger car then yourself? you have heard somewhere, that there is a police man who send his kids to a better school you never have been able to went in your young days? and so on.

please joint the team, we need every little piece of evidence to hang the pai cop high, jusitice has to do be done.

[Boo]

I think everyone needs to stop taking snide shots at the posters they don't agree with. Unless the sniping can stop then this thread serves no purpose staying open except to uddate news reports. So try to be nice please people.

[Andiamo]

Well most people here obviously DO CARE, otherwise we would not be following this thread and hoping to see justice done.

As far as I am aware, and I stand to be corrected, it has not yet been established that "anybody did try to take a gun from a cop" due to the conflicting reports.

Andiamo - Seriously, get informed first . Your posts are becoming ridiculous - please think before you post insane comments and speculations. Thank you.

okay here we go again:

i quote myself, and there are also other posts ponted out on the fact we know about the struggle for the gun, seems you read only the parts you want to believe and ignore the other things.

2. there is fight between them.

3. the fight is focused on getting control over the gun

We DON'T know that.

i think thats the only thing we know or can believe that this is true, because both side have been talking about it.

reisig : "... and got his gun, and Leo tried to get it away from him. "They had a struggle for the gun, then the man got control of the gun ..." (quoted from the nation article "SURVIVOR'S CLAIM Cop 'executed my best friend'")

Sgt-Major Uthai / Case investigator Pol Lt-Colonel Sombat Panya : "...Uthai pointed his service pistol to threaten away both foreigners, but del Pinto tried to snatch the pistol from him. After a scuffle, shots were fired and the couple went down." (quoted from same source)

this is the only exact match in the statements of both sides. a struggle/scuffle for the gun. that del pinto was grabing for the gun. that both men had their hands on the gun at the same time. this is all we know for sure. we don't know why they start to fight. we don't know how the shots have been fired.

we don't know if Uthai was ready to kill them and del pintos attempt to get the gun was the only offer he had to survive. but uthai didn't kill reisig and didn't kill her boyfriend. so maybe just hands up would have been a better solution?

i think is allways better to raise your hands up and disarm a gun pointing person just works in movie but end fatally in reality.

Please do not take my posts out of context, I was responding to Chloe82's post where it was stated that she did not care. POST REF: 1240.

Furthermore, I have read this thread through from start to finish, and therefore I am not reading or believing things selectively.... However, my experience with the Police whilst living here in Thailand, has resulted in me NOT holding the Thai Police in the highest esteem and I am extremely sceptical of "investigations" and "evidence" found at so called scenes of crime. But that is another story and off topic.

[ChiangMaiAmerican]

I attended university with the wife of a cop...

ahh finally we have the wise words of an academic.

please send a PM to damianmavis, he have also a lot of stories about the police. i think both of you have a lot of serious evidence, that must go to the public, the press and the investigation team.

anyone else have ever pay a ticket to a police man? the wife of your neighbour, the police man, drive a bigger car then yourself? you have heard somewhere, that there is a police man who send his kids to a better school you never have been able to went in your young days? and so on.

please joint the team, we need every little piece of evidence to hang the pai cop high, jusitice has to do be done.

Reality check:

"Cops will tolerate psychos, alcoholics, wife-beaters, dweebs and geeks, but they will not tolerate rats. Period," said Tony Bouza, chief of the Minneapolis Police Department from 1980 to 1988.

AND

They said the code is passed on to rookies from their first days on patrols: They need to back up other officers, even when they've done something wrong, or they might not get support when they really need it on the street.

"It is a threat. You are going to be in a tight situation with your life on the line and they won't be there," said George Kirkham, a criminal justice professor at Florida State University who also worked as a police officer.

AND

In Milwaukee, veterans recall how officers who cooperated with investigators in the case of James Schoemperlen were branded "rats" for the rest of their careers. Schoemperlen was beaten by officers after a car chase in 1981.

http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=301346

[DamianMavis]

Well Damian you seem quite opinionated and claim not to have a reading definciency. So who do you see who done what? You claim others have missed vital information.... (and so on). How about you give us unfortunates that have become a bit lost a play by play summary.

Basically the ones that have the most one sided opinion keep saying things that were already proven untrue (such as Chloe saying the autopsy showed the first bullet to the head was not a kill shot when it in fact WAS), this keeps happening and it frustrates the heck out of me. I dont mind differing opinions and a good debate as long as its not continuously diluted with untruths due to not reading the entire thread and discussion carefully enough and not getting all the facts (Im sure they are not purposefully spouting untruths just to be difficult). Its no wonder they have such strange opinions when they are not even reading all the same things as the rest of us.

What do I think happened? I think the police officer acted criminally and should be punished accordingly.

Myself I see the cop being guilty of murder and think its only the degree that needs to be worked out. I dont find favor in what he done but the contrution factors need to be extablished dont they.

I am NOT ready to brand the cop a complete low life as just yet. From reading between the lines about the "ladies" character it could be just possible he was acting in self defence from her reaction after the first shots were fired

After the first shots were fired? I dont get what you mean, the first shots were unprovoked but the later ones were? Even if she is as bad as some of you think, Leo hasnt had his character smeared and there doesnt seem to be any excuse for killing him... twice!

Damian

[geriatrickid]

Gosh, this must be a very big ring with international links, sort of like the biker gangs. My grandmother had her wedding ring stolen from her body after she died in hospital. My friend has his wallet stolen after he went in for his appendix procedure and my sister had some items disappear while she was delivering one of her kids. Hmm come to think of it, theft at hospitals in Canada, the USA and the EU is one of the top 3 complaints of patients (often ranks higher as a concern than food quality).

As for body snatching, do you think these guys are tied up with those funeral parlors that were operating in the US that had been selling body parts? Or maybe, the events you describe are not specific to Thailand but are common to any place where there are people that are easy prey?

[geriatrickid]

"An autopsy carried out in Canada on the body of John 'Leo' Del Pinto, who was gunned down by a policeman in Pai earlier this month has revealed both shots would have been fatal.

The Medical Examiner's office in Calgary, Alberta, has completed a report which says he was killed instantly by the bullet to his head. But the second shot pierced both his liver and kidney and would also have been fatal."

Damian

Damian, The Medical Examiner has yet to release its official statement. This comes in the form of an official news release that is posted on the Medical Examiner of Alberta's website under News. The statement was not posted by the ME. What we have here is a verbal account of a purported statement. You are relying on a news report that was paraphrased from verbal statements. THis doesn't necessarily mean you are wrong. However, it isn't as reliable as if it comes as a statement issued from the ME. One can offer all sorts of speculation about the 1st entry wound. Heck, I could write a 3 pager on head wound variations, so what? On the other hand, whether to the head or to the abdomen, the deceased incurred fatal wounds and nothing changes at that point save for the angles and distance at which the bullets were fired. My point is that information sources that are shaky are being relied upon to form opinions. Please be patient.

[Boo]

I think my last post was very clear that there was to be no more baiting, flaming or snide comments aimed at other posters.

I have just removed two such post, any more will result in warnings & the thread being closed. Try to stick to the topic & not scoring points off of each other.

[Artfullmover]

After I read the last few posts I cant help thinking .. How often would a Thia cop with a gun be challenged. Would he expect once he had the weapon in his hand the situation should be somewhat pasified and under his control. If he was challeged at this point once believing he was the big boss what thoughts would/could be running thru his mind. Could it be possible that he hit "panic mode" thinking he would well end up a victim himself being well and trully out of his comfort zone or his expected outcome of the situation.

Those of us that have been in thailand for any lenght of time know how much power and respect the police have or expect there. In most cases if they raised their voice showed anger towards someone it would be enought to supress to situation.

I am in no way trying to defending his actions just trying come to terms with some logic behind it. The man has murdered someone regardless if it was out of fear or whatever. He needs to pay the price bigtime for has actions and I trully believe this will be the case regardless what you "there is no law in thailand only corruption types" believe. For sure there is corruption there as as any other place in the world. That unfortunately is how the "world" keeps ticking over. (Challenging the corrupt more times than not leads to WAR or at the very least conflict)

One thing that is a given is the way the law enforcement "people" conduct themselfs in thailand would be considered an "Outrage" in our modern day society". Having said that if we go back a few years in time how would we compare them against our "law enforcement personal" . (Please give it a little thought before you make a negative judgement against my opinions. Ned Kelly, The Irish cops in the US and Oh YEAH and most of them all the "ROCK WORKERS THAT CONSIDER THEMSELFS FREE".( Cryptic, but anyone worth their pinch of salt can work that one out)

Edited January 17, 2008 by Artfullmover

[keyman]

My friend is helping me with my English on this post, so the words are his, but the feelings are mine. I am just so depressed by all the hate in this forum. People are ripping into the Thai government, ripping into the Canadian government, and ripping into each other, as if everyone here feels that there are the only moral authority who feels badly about this and thinks something should be done. It seems to me that these terrible tragic events will take time to unwind and be dealt with thoroughly, and you can't just jump on every scrap of information that comes out and base tirades on it. From what I have seen here, police investigations in the best of circumstances are slow, and yes, often disappointing, but nonetheless at least purport to adhere to the rule of law. If there is as much profile as this case, it will help increase the chances that people involved will do their best to get to the truth, I agree, but I don't know what people are expecting that anyone can do to "pressure" the authorities. The Canadians have clearly stated that they are following this closely, and demanded a thorough investigation. I was surprised to see that because one of my friends here works for the Thai Diplomatic Service and she told me that Canada has refused to establish government relations since the Thai coup until democracy was put back through elections. That doesn't sound like their only interested in helping business. I guess that people always thought it was one of those countries that had a reputation for self-righteous moral hectoring. But it seems to me like everyone is trying to get through this, and our spreading hate and resentment won't help.

[Girlaboutglobe]

There's two things about the various accounts that I find just too sketchy to believe.

1. The officer would have just walked up to Reisig and hit her without SOME clear provocation either that night or in an earlier incident. Even if he was drunk, unless there were some very heavy drugs involved it doesn't seem to jive.

2. That any Canadian traveler would have tried to disarm a person who had clearly and calmly identified himself as a police officer, especially in a foreign country. Even if Del Pinto was drunk, again unless there were some very heavy drugs involved, I really doubt he'd have done that unless he had reason to believe that it was potentially a life saving action.

I think it's pretty clear that no party is telling the whole truth.

It seems that everybody agrees that there are some real problems with the Thai justice system, not necessarily at the level of the individual officers, but with the system itself. While this would not have happened to Thai (or any other nationality) tourists in Canada-and I assure you it would not happen there under any circumstances; any police shootings, especially where race relations are a potential issue, are taken very seriously and are investigated independently and transparently-the modern incarnations of our justice systems in the West are relatively new and 50 years ago were not really any better that what the Thais have today. Eventually the Thai system, and those of other developing nations, will be improved to the point where it's fair for the majority of people the majority of the time. This might not happen in our lifetimes, but pressure both internationally and from within will help. I don't really know what else to say, other than I hope other Canadians will also take the time to put a bit of pressure on our government because it could potentially have been you in that situation. I know that if it had been me my family back home would be freaking out right now, as would yours. That's it.

[Girlaboutglobe]

Well said. Keyman, enough with the hate. It's certainly not going to help to improve the situation; compassion for the Del Pintos, an attempt at understanding toward our cultural differences, and solidarity in our request for transparency would be much better.

[kat]

In this case, I don't believe anything or anyone that hasn't been corroborated by both parties or irrefutable evidence.

Then you have higher justice standards than any court system I've ever heard of. In the absence of counter-evidence, the testimony of eyewitnesses unrelated to the defendant or plaintiff is usually admissable. 'Irrefutable evidence' (I suppose you mean physical evidence?) is not a requisite. I understand that you think everyone in Pai is somehow biased, but I'm fairly certain a visit to Pai and discussions with the locals would soon convince you there's no conspiracy of silence, no fear of losing tourism (it's had no noticeable effect so far, and many in Pai would like to see less tourism at any rate) etc. In the meantime all you have to go on, Kat, is news media and ThaiVisa.com, unfortunately, and virtually everything you read from either source comes from eyewitness reports. There's the scant forensics from Canada; one hopes more details are forthcoming from that source, but they will tell us little or nothing about potentially relevant events leading up to the firing of the gun.

I don't think any justice system anywhere is perfect, but there are some key differences that have to be considered. In other countries such as the United States, there is a jury that is interviewed and selected by both the prosecutors and defense, there are eyewitnesses INTERVIEWED and examined at an open trial by both sides, there are interviews of all principal subjects in full view of everyone, AND there is scientific evidence, such as forensics and details that were gleaned at a crime scene that was SECURED and professionally handled. These are the basics. In cases where the location is an important component or may present a possibility of a biased jury or trial, they are MOVED to a less controversial location. So you see, all of these details or reservations are not so far-fetched in an impartial judiciary procedure.

In the case of Thailand, there are no juries, nothing is open or transparent, affiliation and rank matter much more, and character references are frequently more important than non-existent or unsecured scientific evidence. We also have the well-documented issues and links that I discussed earlier, concerning witness intimidation and false testimonies, evidence tampering, and character assassination. As another point of reference, the most internationally and scientifically renowned forensic scientist in the country has publicly stated on record that she does not trust police investigations, and that the Royal Thai Police Office has tried to marginalize and silence her.

In this case, we are talking about foreign tourists - outsiders - in a small, hill town, largely dependent on tourism and local business, such as entertainment venues and restaurants. Everyone should know that in Thailand, entertainment venues and police have a symbiotic relationship, in that much of enforcement and regulation are substituted by the patron/client system of official power relationships in Thailand. This means that relationships, favors, bribes and perceived community standing are the deciding factors in how regulations are carried out and enforced, or not.

To the flamers: This is true in Bangkok, it is true in every backwater town outside of Bangkok, and it is documented EXTENSIVELY as part of Thai governance, so please let's not waste time debating a dead horse. At the very least, if you have a problem with this statement, go back and read the links of factual research that I have provided and/or in selected bookstores and get back to us.

SJ: I never said your interviews were useless; those were your words. I said that local eyewitness accounts were meaningless in a court testimony in favor of a cop, for the above reasons. I also really did not intend anything personal about your reporting, other than the reasons I gave in my last post about conflict of interests, which are not personal but standard, as far as I'm concerned. I know it is not standard in Thailand, but that doesn't mean that we do not have a standard to which we can compare. As for me, as I said earlier, I try to look at comments that have been corroborated by both parties to a large degree, consider eyewitness accounts of the same incident, and of course, their potential interest or affiliation in this case; available scientific evidence is then used to support, disqualify or measure remaining discrepancies.

There's the scant forensics from Canada; one hopes more details are forthcoming from that source, but they will tell us little or nothing about potentially relevant events leading up to the firing of the gun.

Forensics amy not be able to tell you about the sequence of events leading to the shooting but they may be able to tell you a lot about the position and location of the shooter relative to the victim(s). I have seen it happen in real life. In the present instance it can either serve to support of impeach the cop's version of events.

Yes.

[bulmercke]

Sgt. Uthai Dechawiwat shows marks on his arm from the scuffle.

Photograph by : Noel Boivin for the Calgary Herald

[permanent_disorder]

I attended university with the wife of a cop...

ahh finally we have the wise words of an academic.

please send a PM to damianmavis, he have also a lot of stories about the police. i think both of you have a lot of serious evidence, that must go to the public, the press and the investigation team.

anyone else have ever pay a ticket to a police man? the wife of your neighbour, the police man, drive a bigger car then yourself? you have heard somewhere, that there is a police man who send his kids to a better school you never have been able to went in your young days? and so on.

please joint the team, we need every little piece of evidence to hang the pai cop high, jusitice has to do be done.

Reality check:

"Cops will tolerate psychos, alcoholics, wife-beaters, dweebs and geeks, but they will not tolerate rats. Period," said Tony Bouza, chief of the Minneapolis Police Department from 1980 to 1988.

AND

They said the code is passed on to rookies from their first days on patrols: They need to back up other officers, even when they've done something wrong, or they might not get support when they really need it on the street.

"It is a threat. You are going to be in a tight situation with your life on the line and they won't be there," said George Kirkham, a criminal justice professor at Florida State University who also worked as a police officer.

AND

In Milwaukee, veterans recall how officers who cooperated with investigators in the case of James Schoemperlen were branded "rats" for the rest of their careers. Schoemperlen was beaten by officers after a car chase in 1981.

http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=301346

yes, the world is bad and ACAB.

but reality check:

all these cases about bad police, what they have to do with that individual case in Pai. how is it related?

first we hear a lot of stories about thai police now we learn a lot about police in the states. proves that everything in the pai case, or at least anything?

yes police man stick together. so what. lot of TVmrembers group up also. if someone here don't joint the brigade of thai basher he is getting called traitor.

so why come up with this police stories, if you are in it in the name of justice you must try to get a balanced view. look fom every corner.

so why don't bring up some statistic material about (north american) youth and crime. how often people in the age group of 20 -25 get involved in first fights and pub brawls and if the have access to a gun not hesitate to use them. what is the main cause of death for young (north american) man age 20-25?

or look on that what we know about canadian people travel to SEA. anyone remember what the last canadian abroad we read and hear in the mass media world wide was famous for?

if we have peoples with (tribal) tattoos involved we could also quote Adolf Loos essay "Ornament and Crime". he wrotes: " The Papuans tattoo themselves, decorate their boats, their oars, everything they can get their hands on. But a modern man who tattooes himself is either a criminal or a degenerate. Why, there are prisons where eighty per cent of the convicts are tattooed, and tattooed men who are not in prison are either latent criminals or degenerate aristocrats. When a tattooed man dies at liberty, it simply means that he hasn't had time to commit his crime."

and since a lot of members have so much knowledge about crimes commited by police, i am sure you have the same knowledge about deviant youth. so if you are here in the name of justice, please come up also with stories about. you have to put that also in the scale pan of lady justice. have a balanced view. yes, okay?

imho all this have nothing to do with the individual case in Pai. and who come up with that just want to rant about police, thai police or state of things in thailand. and focussed all that on that individual pai police officer. that is not justice.

[Artfullmover]

I dont think we are anywhere close to make judgement of the justice system in this case. Charges have been laid, facts are being investigate, a lot of conflicting accounts are being gatherered and god knows who can make sense of what is the real facts going thu this tread.

As bad as people think the justice systen is in Thailand have a look into aboriginal deaths in custody in Australia and it wasnt that long ago. The police here were acused of all sorts of things accusations were made.. the police went on the defencsive denied all involvement passing it of as lies but at the end of the day the deaths in custody just about became no existent. Go figure that one out.

The only reason I brang that up is for those who believe Thialand is an injust world think again. Why not give them a chance to prove they can prosicute this killer cop and sentence him for his crimes.

Really if the Justice system in THAILAND sucks so much why would be on the map of places to go and why would we go there.

[Artfullmover]

I admit I went a little of track in my last post but chose to leave it there for a little food for thought.

[Arkady]

Sgt. Uthai Dechawiwat shows marks on his arm from the scuffle.

Photograph by : Noel Boivin for the Calgary Herald

It doesn't look he took a very heavy fall but perhaps it will enough for the police to give him a purple heart.

[kat]

No, and we also don't know when that picture was taken, so we can't really judge the wound. Remember, we are deprived of evidence that he is now trying to hold up because he FLED the scene.

[DamianMavis]

if we have peoples with (tribal) tattoos involved we could also quote Adolf Loos essay "Ornament and Crime". he wrotes: " The Papuans tattoo themselves, decorate their boats, their oars, everything they can get their hands on. But a modern man who tattooes himself is either a criminal or a degenerate. Why, there are prisons where eighty per cent of the convicts are tattooed, and tattooed men who are not in prison are either latent criminals or degenerate aristocrats. When a tattooed man dies at liberty, it simply means that he hasn't had time to commit his crime."

What the frik? Who said that Adolf Hitler what? Would you just STOP with the bizarre generalisations? Tattoos do not equal CRIMINALITY, having more than one boyfriend does not equal ASKING TO BE SHOT and all the other thoughts from 1906! Dang man, quit it already.

Oh my god... I was joking but that essay actually WAS from 1908.... talk about blind luck.... or maybe it was obvious in the ridiculousness of the ideas....

Damian

Edited January 17, 2008 by DamianMavis

[permanent_disorder]

Sgt. Uthai Dechawiwat shows marks on his arm from the scuffle.

Photograph by : Noel Boivin for the Calgary Herald

okay, it is a little bit whiny how he shows his 'marks' and 'scars'. actually i see nearly nothing at all, where are all the finger pointer, we know from other pictures from thai crime scenes when you need them? there is also nothing blured.

and what you see in his eyes this time? should thousand irate citizens marching on Pai police station tomorrow?

are these the eyes of a true cold blooded killer machine? or does he look sad and full of sorrow.

or isn't nonsense to judge from a photo?

tragic is it., what happen in pai.

Your name should be "Permanent Distraction". Your points above are way off topic, and not relevant at all.

and you don't get my point again. i try to explain why things are off topic and give some examples.

all these have nothing to do with the singular case in pai.

how can damians stories about beating on suk&vomit road be on topic? how can a story 'i went to university with a police man wife' be here on topic und related to the singular caes in pai? and all these other stories.

please, if you feel you have to play the moderator don't do it lopsided and jump only on me.

you not agree with me, i have an other opinion then you.fine. but if you want discuss about that one with me, then please read my post more carefully.

to think outside the box. i explain my way to do it to you personally two times already.

my post start with a question "how is it related?" and ended with "imho all this have nothing to do with the individual case in Pai"

so can you explain how all these police stories are somehow related to the pai case? (beside that the do a favour for your point of view)

so if you against off topic post, i am 100% with you.

we don't need stories about police in the states, we don't need stories about lying isaan hookers. we don't need strories about falangs got beating on suk&vomit road. that is all OFF_TOPIC and crap. the ordinary TV smear campaign now use poor leo as trump card.