Two Tourists In Pai Shot By A Police Officer

[Kerryd]

As an aside, if memory serves, there is a Glock 18(?) often referred to as a Police Special, which includes a burst-mode {3-rounds}, similar to the old {now collectible} Beretta r. Forgive me, but does anyone know what the make of the firearm used was?

I own a HK model VP-70 that had the 3 round burst capability (on the military/police versions, disabled on the civilian models). It is a single-action pistol with an internal hammer and 18 pound trigger pull (nasty when your on the range, especially in a timed, accuracy contest).

The Glock 18 has a 3-round burst mode, as does the Beretta 93R.

It is unlikely that the (journalist ? reporter ?) that handled the officer's weapon is very knowledgeable about firearms, as there was no mention of make/model or caliber. Too bad he didn't get a picture of it.

I'm trying to recall any model of semi-auto that doesn't have some sort of safety on it. All of mine do, even my little Erma .22 (not much bigger than a pack of playing cards, and about as accurate as throwing rocks while blind-folded), has a safety.

I wouldn't really get to hung up on the whole "hair trigger" thing, at least not until we know for certain how the whole mess went down. After all, if I recall correctly, one report had the cop going back to his motorcycle and retrieving his weapon. Another report I think said that he pulled out his weapon and then there was a struggle, and yet another report said he pulled his weapon out after the struggle started.

In either of the first two scenarios, he would have had time to action the slide prior to the shooting. From that point on, trigger pull/pressure wouldn't be much of a factor, as (in the heat of a struggle) the difference between a few ounce pull and a couple pounds wouldn't even be noticed. With the adrenaline pumping (and possibly a struggle), squeezing off 3 rounds would happen as fast as you can say "bang bang bang".

But getting off 3 rounds accurately into two different targets ? Either they had to be really close together, or he had time to deliberately switch aim and fire at the second person (Carly).

The one person who should be able to provide better detail on that (Fuen) has been pretty quiet since the beginning.

I wonder how many people (besides regular board members) are reading these posts and taking notes (on both sides of the case) ?

I also wonder what the current situation is. A while back, Carly was reportedly going to be transferred to a hospital in Mae Hong Son. We haven't heard much of anything about her or Fuen since then. I would have thought there would have been something after the autopsy report and funeral of Leo (i.e her feelings and comments, etc).

[A_Traveller]

VP-70, now there's a blast from the past. The version I handled, only switched to burst mode when the stock was attached.

Just quickly, on the SOP point, let's not go off topic on it, I wanted to edit to reflect the UK basis for comment but my connexion has been up and down like a fiddler's elbow today, so mea culpa for that sin of omission.

Regards

[endure]

Today's warning: Any personal insults/attacks will earn their poster a holiday. Keep to the subject - stop the flames.

[farang prince]

As an aside, if memory serves, there is a Glock 18(?) often referred to as a Police Special, which includes a burst-mode {3-rounds}, similar to the old {now collectible} Beretta r. Forgive me, but does anyone know what the make of the firearm used was?

It is unlikely that the (journalist ? reporter ?) that handled the officer's weapon is very knowledgeable about firearms, as there was no mention of make/model or caliber. Too bad he didn't get a picture of it.

I'm trying to recall any model of semi-auto that doesn't have some sort of safety on it. All of mine do, even my little Erma .22 (not much bigger than a pack of playing cards, and about as accurate as throwing rocks while blind-folded), has a safety.

I wouldn't really get to hung up on the whole "hair trigger" thing, at least not until we know for certain how the whole mess went down. After all, if I recall correctly, one report had the cop going back to his motorcycle and retrieving his weapon. Another report I think said that he pulled out his weapon and then there was a struggle, and yet another report said he pulled his weapon out after the struggle started.

In either of the first two scenarios, he would have had time to action the slide prior to the shooting. From that point on, trigger pull/pressure wouldn't be much of a factor, as (in the heat of a struggle) the difference between a few ounce pull and a couple pounds wouldn't even be noticed. With the adrenaline pumping (and possibly a struggle), squeezing off 3 rounds would happen as fast as you can say "bang bang bang".

But getting off 3 rounds accurately into two different targets ? Either they had to be really close together, or he had time to deliberately switch aim and fire at the second person (Carly).

The one person who should be able to provide better detail on that (Fuen) has been pretty quiet since the beginning.

I wonder how many people (besides regular board members) are reading these posts and taking notes (on both sides of the case) ?

I also wonder what the current situation is. A while back, Carly was reportedly going to be transferred to a hospital in Mae Hong Son. We haven't heard much of anything about her or Fuen since then. I would have thought there would have been something after the autopsy report and funeral of Leo (i.e her feelings and comments, etc).

Kerry, I agree with your post. The issue of a "hair trigger" was one that apparently is being put forth by Sgt. Major Unthai and the Royal Thai Police. Personally I think it is a red herring. The real issue here is that he was able to get off three rounds -- two of them fatal and one almost fatal -- while he claims to have been falling backwards. We both know that is utter b.s. When I read Unthai's statement while he was participating in the reenactment of the shooting, I stated then that his claim that he fired three shots "accidentally" while falling down was enough to get him hung. My opinion hasn't changed.

I also want to see a more detailed report from the coroner in Calgary. I'm especially interested in the path the two bullets took that were fired into the victim. If anyone gets a copy of that report, I'd certainly like to see it posted here.

Edited January 19, 2008 by farang prince

[kat]

Yes, I'm not even an "expert" and I stated that Uthai's claim of his accidental shots while falling backwards to be outlandish.

I also think that his claim that the "gun fell out of his holster" to be ridiculous. So, if we are to follow this rationale, he didn't pull the gun, it just fell out in the struggle, and that's how the scuffle shifted to control of the gun. Yeah, right.

[scotwumman]

Some barrack room lawyers obsession with their gun knowledge might be better to sing dumb and not be giving

anyone ideas who are looking for a get out clause. Remember the boy's family are constantly online and need

the support of this thread. Some have been helpful to the family i.e. the girl writing to her MP in Canada.

Then lets push for the outcome of bringing the perpetrator(s) to justice through the proper channels in Thailand

however impossible this may seem something must be seen to be done for a young lost life.

[Danielle]

Some barrack room lawyers obsession with their gun knowledge might be better to sing dumb and not be giving

anyone ideas who are looking for a get out clause. Remember the boy's family are constantly online and need

the support of this thread. Some have been helpful to the family i.e. the girl writing to her MP in Canada.

Then lets push for the outcome of bringing the perpetrator(s) to justice through the proper channels in Thailand

however impossible this may seem something must be seen to be done for a young lost life.

Girlaboutglobe writing to her MP is exactly the sort of action we are looking for people to take to help make the Canadian government realize that this is an important issue that needs to be given sufficient attention to resolve it.

[Arkady]

News on Carly has now gone suspiciously silent as some one has just pointed out but I can't find the post again to quote it. On different occasions the police said they were going to take Carly to Mae Hong Song and Pai for questioning. They also threatened to charge her and Fuen with assaulting policeman and resisting arrest. I for one would like to know that she has recovered from her horrific wound and is in a safe place not being threatened or intimidated by police - Fuen too.

For those who object to discussions about the gun. I would just say that forensic evidence relating the shooting whether accurately compiled and presented objectively or otherwise will probably be very important in this case. The gun is a key component in this. Eyewitness testimony is likely to be unreliable for many reasons, including but not limited to the lack of any possible upside in testifying against police - something very well understood by Thais. I don't see how discussion of the gun or other forensic aspects is going to help Uthai's defence find an angle, even in the extremely unlikely event they look at TV, or that keeping silent is going to help Leo's family in their struggle to obtain justice.

Finally, I would add that the criminal prosecution is not the only way to seek justice. If the suspect is acquitted, a civil case can be filed, if sufficient resources and endurance are available. In a famous recent case, a deterimined elderly father's success in the civil prosecution of his daughter's well connected and wealthy killer (her husband), shamed the attorney-general into making a vigorous appeal against the killer's acquittal by the lower court. The appeal ultimately secured a conviction and a death penalty from the higher court that was confirmed by the Supreme Court (later commuted to life in prison).

[sabaijai]

Kerry, I agree with your post. The issue of a "hair trigger" was one that apparently is being put forth by Sgt. Major Unthai and the Royal Thai Police.

Allow me to clarify something, since I was the one who talked to the reporter and posted the gist of the conversation here. It was the subjective opinion of the reporter, after he handled the weapon himself, that it was very easy to pull the trigger.

Aside from the subjective nature of his opinion, one might also question whether the pistol shown to the reporter was actually the weapon fired that night.

[sabaijai]

News on Carly has now gone suspiciously silent as some one has just pointed out but I can't find the post again to quote it. On different occasions the police said they were going to take Carly to Mae Hong Song and Pai for questioning. They also threatened to charge her and Fuen with assaulting policeman and resisting arrest. I for one would like to know that she has recovered from her horrific wound and is in a safe place not being threatened or intimidated by police - Fuen too.

For those who object to discussions about the gun. I would just say that forensic evidence relating the shooting whether accurately compiled and presented objectively or otherwise will probably be very important in this case. The gun is a key component in this. Eyewitness testimony is likely to be unreliable for many reasons, including but not limited to the lack of any possible upside in testifying against police - something very well understood by Thais. I don't see how discussion of the gun or other forensic aspects is going to help Uthai's defence find an angle, even in the extremely unlikely event they look at TV, or that keeping silent is going to help Leo's family in their struggle to obtain justice.

Finally, I would add that the criminal prosecution is not the only way to seek justice. If the suspect is acquitted, a civil case can be filed, if sufficient resources and endurance are available. In a famous recent case, a deterimined elderly father's success in the civil prosecution of his daughter's well connected and wealthy killer (her husband), shamed the attorney-general into making a vigorous appeal against the killer's acquittal by the lower court. The appeal ultimately secured a conviction and a death penalty from the higher court that was confirmed by the Supreme Court (later commuted to life in prison).

As of this last weekend, Carly was still in hospital in Chiang Mai, as a friend of mine visited her there. She states she would like to return to Canada but her doctors say she shouldn't take long flights for at least a month.

[sabaijai]

If it is in fact a double action with a hair trigger that raises other questions. A double action would require more than a light pull to discharge the first shot. Then there is the other question, why are the police here allowed to carry as a street weapon one that could so easily be discharged on the second and subsequent shots? There is no margin of safety with a hair trigger.

Exactly. Unfortunately as several posters have pointed out here, police weapon standards appear to be relatively lax, allowing officers to acquire and customise their own pistols (whether by law or de facto, I don't know).

[scotwumman]

To quote Arcady I am grateful for your reply particularly for the sake of the family involved and was worried that my comments might have

stopped the thread proceeding as this seems to be their only comfort that at least their lost is being acknowledged. The only thing I may

still worry about is that they (Utai's defence) do read thaivisa, may even be a large part of it under one name or another and may use the

knowledge "gun or otherwise" to their advantage and also realise some the apathy i.e. loss of face compared to loss of life is also in their

favour.

Either way I bow to your obvious greater knowledge (even thought of singling you out as not being one of the people I meant to refer to) and hope that you will continue to bring some hope and eventual justice to this situation. The poster who said your comments should be required reading is also correct.

[Kerryd]

I tried to contact a couple of Canadian News agencies over the weekend, to see if anyone has seen the autopsy report that was supposed to have come out on Thursday (3 days after the autopsy). This report would (should) have details that could go a long way towards determining how things actually happened that night.

The fact that I can't find any news about it being released has me kind of wondering. It's still (very) early on Monday morning back there, so I doubt I'll hear anything until later tonight or tomorrow morning (Thai time).

The whole story seems to be quietly slipping under the radar. Hardly any news from anywhere. Responses are drying up, topic views slowing down. If it wasn't for the (side-topic) discussions, this would have already slipped to page 2.

[dwarm]

Carly now has a lawyer (not sure who) and has been told to not speak to reporters anymore. She said she has two thai eyewitnesses that confirm her story. I still have a hard time believing Uthai started it. I have seen her behavior since she arrived and she has definitely been agressive and loud. I saw her the night she shoved a cop at Bebop a few months ago. They didn't react at all. I was kindof shocked at how they kept their cool. The witnesses i have spoken to have completely opposite stories. Several eyewitnesses concur with Uthai and the others that i know of say the exact opposite. I have known Uthai a long time and have never seen him aggressive or heard people say that he was. I have seen him super mow many times but he's usually just sloppy and clingy and annoying. I have also seen him sober many times and he is really quiet. I'm not saying i believe what he did was ok. Not at all i am just wondering what the truth is. I also think that her past behavior is relevant. Nevertheless, whatever becomes of this i hope their is atleast some crack down by the chief about guns in bars and off duty cops drinking with their guns.

[Tony Clifton]

I tried to contact a couple of Canadian News agencies over the weekend, to see if anyone has seen the autopsy report that was supposed to have come out on Thursday (3 days after the autopsy). This report would (should) have details that could go a long way towards determining how things actually happened that night.

The fact that I can't find any news about it being released has me kind of wondering. It's still (very) early on Monday morning back there, so I doubt I'll hear anything until later tonight or tomorrow morning (Thai time).

The whole story seems to be quietly slipping under the radar. Hardly any news from anywhere. Responses are drying up, topic views slowing down. If it wasn't for the (side-topic) discussions, this would have already slipped to page 2.

Same as the Japanese girl's murder.

Foreign countries must not believe their eyes and ears when they deal with local authorities and their very primitive and corrupt ways of dealing with such cases, they do whatever they can to console the families while they know nothing can be done at this end. Very sad.

[Arkady]

Carly now has a lawyer (not sure who) and has been told to not speak to reporters anymore. She said she has two thai eyewitnesses that confirm her story. I still have a hard time believing Uthai started it. I have seen her behavior since she arrived and she has definitely been agressive and loud. I saw her the night she shoved a cop at Bebop a few months ago. They didn't react at all. I was kindof shocked at how they kept their cool. The witnesses i have spoken to have completely opposite stories. Several eyewitnesses concur with Uthai and the others that i know of say the exact opposite. I have known Uthai a long time and have never seen him aggressive or heard people say that he was. I have seen him super mow many times but he's usually just sloppy and clingy and annoying. I have also seen him sober many times and he is really quiet. I'm not saying i believe what he did was ok. Not at all i am just wondering what the truth is. I also think that her past behavior is relevant. Nevertheless, whatever becomes of this i hope their is atleast some crack down by the chief about guns in bars and off duty cops drinking with their guns.

Glad to hear from Sabaijai that she is still in Chiang Mai and hasn't been taken to Pai or Mae Hong Son. Probably sensible for her not to talk to reporters any more. No point in provoking the police to press charges against her. Whatever happened it would be hard for Uthai to argue in a Western court that he fired all three shots out of fear for his life, or that they were all accidents, or even a combination. But Thai courts are something else. Unfortunately there is little hope of a general crack down on guns in bars and off duty cops drinking with their guns. It is already illegal for anyone including off duty cops to carry guns anywhere unless they have license to carry a concealed weapon which most cops don't. Police won't enforce this law on each other as they feel vulnerable, perhaps with good reason, given the way many behave and the way most Thais feel about them.

[Arkady]

To quote Arcady I am grateful for your reply particularly for the sake of the family involved and was worried that my comments might have

stopped the thread proceeding as this seems to be their only comfort that at least their lost is being acknowledged. The only thing I may

still worry about is that they (Utai's defence) do read thaivisa, may even be a large part of it under one name or another and may use the

knowledge "gun or otherwise" to their advantage and also realise some the apathy i.e. loss of face compared to loss of life is also in their

favour.

Either way I bow to your obvious greater knowledge (even thought of singling you out as not being one of the people I meant to refer to) and hope that you will continue to bring some hope and eventual justice to this situation. The poster who said your comments should be required reading is also correct.

Thanks for your comments. Anything is possible but it seems unlikely that Uthai's defense would take the trouble to read English language web boards to find ideas that might help them or even to post in TV themselves. It would take very sophisticated overseas educated Thais to pose as foreigners in TV and these type of people are not going to be found doing this type of job for the police in defense of a sergeant. I thought the discussions much more likely to be read by those with an interest in ensuring that the prosecution puts forward a cogent case and actually tries to win. However the defense decides to pitch it, the three accidental discharges defense is going to stretch the imagination. That doesn't always seem to be a problem in a Thai court but you never know. The judicial branch has been traditionally weak and corrupt but, at the uppermost levels, has taken some taken some surprisingly courageous decisions since HM the King reminded them of their duty to be fair and just for the good of the country in 2006. We can but hope.

[Foggy Bottom]

Having watched that CBC news clipping that covered the funeral and crime scene re-enactment, a number of things stand out -

Carly Reisig's statement (as best I remember her words) that "they were struggling for the gun and it was above their heads, they had their hands in the air with it. Then (the cop) got it free and swung it around a foot from Leos head and fired it, then shot him in the chest, then pointed it at me and shot me in the chest"

She also described the weapon as "a small pistol" - so she's not trying to claim it was a heavyweight weapon, and in the relatively smaller (than western) hands of a Thai, is that significant as to the actual size of the weapon, and if "small" is it likely to be the one he would use when on duty? Or more likely to be his "number 2 / back-up" piece?

The re-enactment also appears to display Reisig down about 10-15 yards back up the road from where Leo went down, and he is down 2-3 yards from the motorcycle that Uthai is depicted lying backwards over.

In the reenactment, as he goes onto his back on the bike seat, he demonstrates the classic police 2-handed grip, fully in control of the pistol aim - was that how he did it on the night? Or was that just police training taking over in the cold and sober light of day?

The news announcer also states it was next day he turned himself in, not the same night or even shortly after the shooting.

The food vendor also appears completely unfazed that her sending Uthai to the noisy couple resulted in the death of an "honoured guest" to her country, and the near death of another. One wonders if she realises what her actions led to, and that she played a pivotal role if her and Uthai's accounts are true.

Off topic side note - If every noisily fighting Thai couple were to be shot the same way by a Thai cop - Thailand's population would be nearer 6.4 million rather than 64 million (and we would also not be subjected to those dreadful screeching and wailing Thai hi-so soap operas )

Gaz

[geriatrickid]

The food vendor also appears completely unfazed that her sending Uthai to the noisy couple resulted in the death of an "honoured guest" to her country, and the near death of another. One wonders if she realises what her actions led to, and that she played a pivotal role if her and Uthai's accounts are true.

Gaz

What? Why would the food vendor have any responsibility for acting in a responsible manner? Isn't the intelligent thing to do when people are yelling and engaging in shoving, to go and get help from a law enforcement agent, since one doesn't know if it is violence or playfighting?How could the food vendor know that the female was not in trouble? What if the food vendor had clocked someone with a frying pan because she thought the female was being attacked, and it turned out they were 2 pals having fun?

"Honoured Guest"???? Please. An honoured guest is someone like the chief medical officer from Australia stopping by to share her knowledge on malaria treatment, or a visiting scholar, an artist that visits for inspiration or someone that has contributed to the community at large such as a charity worker. People that follow a vagabond lifestyle and engage in loud drinking sessions are hardly "honoured guests".

The food vendor cannot be blamed for the actions that arose from the wounded female's behaviour which started the chain of tragic events. It would be more logical to state that had the injured female not conducted herself in such a manner, the deceased would not be dead today nor the accused assailant be in his current predicament.

[Jai Dee]

Having watched that CBC news clipping that covered the funeral and crime scene re-enactment...

Here is a link to the CBC video.

[jumnien]

The food vendor also appears completely unfazed that her sending Uthai to the noisy couple resulted in the death of an "honoured guest" to her country, and the near death of another. One wonders if she realises what her actions led to, and that she played a pivotal role if her and Uthai's accounts are true.

Gaz

What? Why would the food vendor have any responsibility for acting in a responsible manner? Isn't the intelligent thing to do when people are yelling and engaging in shoving, to go and get help from a law enforcement agent, since one doesn't know if it is violence or playfighting?How could the food vendor know that the female was not in trouble? What if the food vendor had clocked someone with a frying pan because she thought the female was being attacked, and it turned out they were 2 pals having fun?

"Honoured Guest"???? Please. An honoured guest is someone like the chief medical officer from Australia stopping by to share her knowledge on malaria treatment, or a visiting scholar, an artist that visits for inspiration or someone that has contributed to the community at large such as a charity worker. People that follow a vagabond lifestyle and engage in loud drinking sessions are hardly "honoured guests".

The food vendor cannot be blamed for the actions that arose from the wounded female's behaviour which started the chain of tragic events. It would be more logical to state that had the injured female not conducted herself in such a manner, the deceased would not be dead today nor the accused assailant be in his current predicament.

Exactly, that is why it is so important to direct this thread towards compassionately encouraging travellers in the Kingdom to show the utmost in respect in their manner of dress and behavior while they enjoy their stay here. Thailand is neither Goa or Kathmandu or a place to satisfy one's lack of respect for authority brought as emotional baggage from one's home country. This thread can save lives; otherwise it will deteriorate into a mean-spirited call for gullible tourists to mouth off against local police whenever their alcohol and drug levels tell them that it is appropriate.

[Claymore]

The food vendor cannot be blamed for the actions that arose from the wounded female's behaviour which started the chain of tragic events. It would be more logical to state that had the injured female not conducted herself in such a manner, the deceased would not be dead today nor the accused assailant be in his current predicament.

---

Hang on a minute here. Just a reminder that, as the CBC interview shows Carly Reisig, has not changed her account from day one. She is saying the same as she told Andrew Drummond. Also it has been made quite clear that the account of the food vendor is being contradicted by other witnesses who have spoken to Canadian Embassy officials.

You are leaps ahead of the game and, possibly maybe even probably, wrong by stating that it is logical Carly's behaviour resulted in Del Pinto's death. In any case its a pretty monstrous thing to say on the info available and nothing more than speculation, which is not going to help this woman who is now out of hospital.

The food vendor has offered herself up for interview several times and is positively supporting Uthai. She may be being honest. She may well have an agenda. Police may even own her restaurant for all we know.

Personally I believe that Carly should be able to continue to state her case as she sees fit.

If her lawyers have advised her not to talk to press - that would be standard Embassy operating procedure pioneered by the British Emb.

"If u say nothing u cant get into any trouble"

[Danielle]

I think everyone needs to be very conscious that almost everyone is constantly (consciously or unconsciously) trying to follow the desire to believe that the world is a fair place, that bad things happen to bad people and not good people, so that you can keep believing that as long as you behave properly, nothing bad will happen to you. Regardless of what comes out about anyone involved in the situation, I think everyone needs to be aware that the desire to maintain this belief is quite possibly influencing their view of the victims, or the nature of their speculation. This is not just some effect I am making up; victim derogation is very common and a lot stronger of an effect than you would expect. You have to keep in mind that whatever you learn about the victims, you do not have an appropriate context to be able to claim that that information allows you to know who they were or what they were like as people.

So while you can say that Thai officials or culture would not have considered them "Honoured Guests," keep in mind that you cannot justifiably claim by what you know of them that they are people of less worth than anyone else.

[A_Traveller]

My own view is that after watching the video, linked above, that the reconstruction raises some very puzzling points. The most obvious, is the location of the individuals. If that is where people fell, the distances involved are far greater then I envisaged from the accounts herein and on the net. I anticipated people being within a few feet of each other, yet that does not seem to be the case. Am I alone in this? Am I missing something?

By the by, I note the reconstruction took place with a revolver.

Regards

/edit from form... //

Edited January 22, 2008 by A_Traveller

[Arkady]

I think we can safely discount the police re-enactment as flawed and the pantomime public re-enactment in general is of highly questionable value and certainly not used in the West. As already pointed out, the gun used was a revolver, whereas the Canadian reporter claimed the gun the police showed him was a semi-automatic which indicates they can't even be bothered to get indisputable details correct. In the past suspects have confessed to murder under police pressure and gone through re-enactments when it was later proved that they couldn't have been in that location at the time. The idea of a re-enactment seems to be to inprint in the minds of the public the police version and sometimes to act as a ritual punishment of the accused. (Suspects in heinous crimes have often been badly beaten by bystanders at re-enactments while police watched.)

Carly seems quite consistent. Even if the account of how the contact with Uthai began is open to dispute by witnesses and many like to quote her earlier brushes with police as prima facie evidence that she initiated the fight with Uthai, her account on camera of the actual shooting sounds very clear to me and her body language and eyes don't seem to suggest some one lying. I don't think there are any witnesses able or willing to describe the shooting so far (they say it took place behind parked cars). The noodle vendor's body language, voice and eyes seem a bit shifty to me but it must be the first time she has been on camera and the TV crew probably had to rehearse her. A pity we cannot see the whole of her interview in Thai without the voice over. The policeman at the station mentioned that forensic evidence will be the key but it is still sadly lacking as far as we are concerned. Carly said it was a very small pistol but the Canadian journalist didn't mention this. We don't know what brand or caliber and neither the Canadian nor Thai pathologists have said what kind of bullets were found, let alone their range or trajectories. Clearly it is not in the police interest to reveal forensic evidence, whatever it looks like, as that could prompt public discussion and invite challenge and calls for independent examination by the DSI's high profile forensic team who are much feared and hated by the police. Uthai would obviously have been rehearsed before the re-enactment but getting off three accidental shots while being bent over a motor bike looks odd. It suggests that they have not found it easy to put together a credible story, although this and the re-enactment may change. He would probably not have stayed balanced in that position during a struggling for more than a split second. You would either overbalance and fall to the ground or get back on your feet. The police usually spray paint around bodies or injured people (you get a chilling feeling while walking over the outlines of fallen motor cyclists). But the relative positions of Leo, Carly and Uthai seem strange. Since Leo was killed instantly and Uthai is still precariously perched on the motor bike in the re-enactment, the person lying about 20 yards away must be Carly. Perhaps that was where she managed to crawl to before passing out but did Uthai remain bent over the motor bike during that time? If not she cannot have been shot from close range by accident. It seems hard to discount the possibility that Uthai was on his feet and totally in control of the gun for one or more of the shots.

I am not sure how much of the forensic evidence will even come out at the trial. DSI involvement might clear some things up. Probably this week there will be a new cabinet line up announced which might have a bearing, if new ministers want to show themselves in control and keen to deal with issues that might affect the flagging economy, e.g. threats to tourism. A long shot, maybe, but political intervention in Thailand can certainly be decisive, as we saw in the Katherine Horton case.

[Foggy Bottom]

@ GeriaticID #1350 & sunrise07 #1352 (both members of this forum for significantly less time than myself, yet acting as if they own the place)......

I may not be a member of your particular clique / club / tribe (and with your displayed attitudes to my post, nor would I want to be), however, like you, I have the right to express my opinion (which my post did not - it stated observations and posed questions about them) and would expect in adult company to be allowed to express that opinion, so here it is ....

The food vendor interviewed in the CBC newsclipping readily admits she asked Uthai to go sort out Ms Reisig & Mr del Pinto. Although there is not testimony to the contrary, it would appear that Uthai was ignoring whatever was happening (as is the wont of most Thai police, in most situations, unless specifically tasked to address particular problems - vis-a-vis traffic police on school road-crossing watch-duty ignoring illegal parking, riding without helmets or lights, 4 kids to a motorbike etc). Based on national habits, it is very likely that Uthai would have sat back and watched the show without getting involved, had not the food vendor publicly shamed him into doing something by asking him to do so in front of other customers.

Therefore, in the lack of any testimony that Uthai was going to get involved without being goaded to do so, it is a fair comment that the food vendor has culpabilitiy in the events that followed. Pushing a lone Thai cop into a 3 onto 1 situation, late at night, where it seems all four had been drinking, by virtue of directly shaming him into action. In such a position, under local culture, Uthai would have had to defend his face-level, his machismo, and his status as a policeman - in other words, the food vendor's direct intervention in the larger picture wound up Uthai like a good little clockwork soldier and pointed him in the right direction.

Under those circumstances, then any feeling and thought-capable person would be showing remorse today that their actions led to a death and another facing (if it went that far) the death sentence for murder. One has to ask, is this particular eatery some form of off-station semi-official canteen for the nearby police station? Is that the reason for the public lack of displayed remorse?

On the CBC interview, the food vendor shows zero recognition that she played a pivotal role in the proceedings, that she was the catalyst of the explosion moments later, and if she does inwardly recognise that, she externally displays neither remorse not guilt concerning it. Karma will out on that omission, that's for sure.

Perhaps the next editions of famous guide books will list her late night eatery as the place from which Thai police are despatched to shoot and kill boisterous foreign tourists? Certainly that type of reputation for the Pai eatery, stated directly or indirectly, will linger (locally and on the Internet) for a long time, and whilst it may attract some ghouls to dine there, this story is likely to scare off more foreign customers than it will attract, and the owner's lack of empathy for the victims will do nothing to improve that - resident farangs have long memories and even longer wagging-tongues. Som nam na karma chameleon?

[Tony Clifton]

I usually consider people innocent until proven guilty, except for this one group wearing brown uniforms, who have shown themselves on too many occasions (and will again countless times) that you shouldn't trust them any further than you could throw one of their miserable street corner booths.

[meadish_sweetball]

On the CBC interview, the food vendor shows zero recognition that she played a pivotal role in the proceedings, that she was the catalyst of the explosion moments later, and if she does inwardly recognise that, she externally displays neither remorse not guilt concerning it. Karma will out on that omission, that's for sure.

You seem to expect her to react like a person brought up in a culture where self-contemplation and admitting guilt/sin are core values. What she has likely been taught by her elders, is to appear composed and balanced in the public eye, no matter what she feels inside.

I wouldn't presume to know anything about what she actually feels about her own role, based on her brief apperance in the video clip. It could be as you say, or otherwise.

[sabaijai]

Having watched that CBC news clipping that covered the funeral and crime scene re-enactment...

Here is a link to the CBC video.

At least Uthai and Carly agree on one thing, that there was a struggle for control of the gun.

[Kerryd]

The more I read here, and the more I think about it, the more I start wondering if perhaps things didn't happen somewhat differently than what Ms Reisig claims.

Some people don't think her (self-admitted) past behaviour has relevance (but on the other hand, Uthai's past behaviour does ?). I think it has relevance, and I'm sure it will come out in court that this is a person who (in the past) has admitted to striking a police officer, and appears to have a reputation for being drunk and disorderly.

So, when thinking about this, I started wondering. What if you were confronted by an authority figure, and acted in a manner similar to what you have admitted to doing in the past. What if, instead of "getting away with it", this time the authority figure struck back, and this lead to an ugly confrontation in which your friend is killed and you are shot.

Would you admit to having started the confrontation ? Knowing that people would blame you for your friends death, and that you could face possible prosecution for starting the confrontation in the first place ?

Or would you try to come up with an alternative version of events that would make you appear to be the victim ?

Two things that stick in my mind. One being a police officer, even a drunk one, randomly walking up to a farang couple and punching the women in the face for no apparent reason.

(note in the Pattaya news clippings forum, the story about 3 Estonians who allegedly picked a fight with some Thai guys, and suddenly found themselves facing about 15 Thai guys. There are numerous references in that thread about how Thais never seem to fight one-on-one, even when drunk. Yet in this case, the officer (allegedly) walked up to a group of 2 farangs and 1 Thai, and started the confrontation by striking the woman in the face for no reason ? Sure maybe he was "empowered" by the fact he is a policeman and had a weapon (either on his person or on his motorbike), but it still seems highly unlikey that he would just walk up and strike her in the face).

Second thing. About the one and only thing we've heard from the person who should have been in a position to see everything (Fuen):

Sitting by her bed was her boyfriend Rattaporn Vara-wadee, an artist nicknamed Fuen.

He said: "Nothing we did gave this man the right to take lives.

So what exactly did "they" do ?

I don't know, but I'm starting to have a sneaky suspicion that we are going to hear a whole different version of what happened that night, once this actually gets to court.

That is, if we hear anything at all.