Two Tourists In Pai Shot By A Police Officer

[Arkady]

... in a civilised jurisdiction ...

Indeed. But to say that it doesn't matter what the victim's behaviour here in Thailand was because 'in a civilised jurisdiction' it wouldn't matter doesn't go very far in explaining why the events unfolded the way they did.

Most of the posts in this thread can be divided between two perspectives, one that recognises the Thai context for this tragedy, and one that applies a non-Thai - specifically a Western, developed-world - context.

This isn't 'making excuses', it's trying to understand how this could happen. If we don't understand all the ramifications and causative factors, remote as well as proximate, we aren't making things any safer for the next foreigner who potentially antagonises (whether intentionally or unintentionally) Thai law enforcement. (Yes the jury is still out on whether that was the case here but there are strong indications it was, for now.)

It really doesn't matter who is 'right' in a global sense, if you're trying to prevent future incidents such as this.

Awareness needs raising on both sides. Whatever the legal outcome of the case is, let's hope everyone -- yes, especially Thai police culture -- learns a few things that can be put into practice so as to prevent future incidents of the kind. And if Thai police cannot be or will not be educated on this point, then at least foreign residents and visitors may gain a further understanding, perhaps even to the point of saving someone's life some day.

You are right in many ways and I cannot disagree with the benefits to foreigners of understanding what types of behavior could potentially get them into much more serious trouble in Thailand than at home or that they should give the police an extremely wide bearth. But we still don't know exactly what happened and and can't say for sure whether Carly or even Leo should bear some blame for what happened or not. In all likelihood we never will.

Thai culture also cuts both ways in this context e.g. the politician's son who whipped out a gun and shot a traffic cop in the neck in front of a whole rush hour traffic jam in Patanakarn Road, Bangkok, because he got angry at being pulled over. Should the policeman have been more careful in dealing with motorists because he realized, or should have realized, that in Thai society there are people who will shot a policeman without a second thought just because they know they can do so with impunity? Did he bring it on himself due to a failure to recognize his lowly status in the eyes of those above him in the food chain? (BTW the policeman survived.) The fact that the police "mysteriously" decided to drop the charges of attempted murder and firearms charges seem to imply that the answer to that question was yes.

However knowledgable one is about Thai culture the lack of rule of law means that no one can consider themselves totally safe from this type of incident. Sadly the vast majority of victims of this lack of rule of law are Thai. Some of them are even policemen.

[thaigene2]

Thai culture also cuts both ways in this context e.g. the politician's son who whipped out a gun and shot a traffic cop in the neck in front of a whole rush hour traffic jam in Patanakarn Road, Bangkok, because he got angry at being pulled over. Should the policeman have been more careful in dealing with motorists because he realized, or should have realized, that in Thai society there are people who will shot a policeman without a second thought just because they know they can do so with impunity? Did he bring it on himself due to a failure to recognize his lowly status in the eyes of those above him in the food chain? (BTW the policeman survived.) The fact that the police "mysteriously" decided to drop the charges of attempted murder and firearms charges seem to imply that the answer to that question was yes.

Yes incedible - Amazing Thailand. Now of course you could be the richest Farang in Thailand, but your kid would never do that or get away with it! Can this kind of patronage society EVER become a democratic one? Some say 'oh it is just the Wild West" and that things will sort themselves out. Really? Anyone believe that?

[thaigene2]

By the way, the post by Arkady above is probably reason enough NOT to send your kids to the Int'l Schools with 80% Thai kids. Cause guess who they're going to school with, Hmmm? Certianly NOT the kids of the hard working parent sacrificing their hard-earned salaries..(now don't anyone even DARE to suggest that the Thais sending their kids to these schools are earning their money legally/without a rip-off somewhere - cause I'll laugh at ya...ha, ha..)

Edited January 24, 2008 by thaigene2

[Claymore]

[Reminds me, we haven't hear for a long time from our friend BackPackThailand who actually sat in court when the Kanchanaburi cop got his circus act of a trial. His last post shows July 2004???

*He was banned? His posts relating what he saw in court are gone too...

I wont be missing him. Not only was he posting here but also ringing up the London SUN with reports that Somchai Wisetsingh was on the loose. Whether he sat in the courthouse remains very debatable.

[kat]

... in a civilised jurisdiction ...

Indeed. But to say that it doesn't matter what the victim's behaviour here in Thailand was because 'in a civilised jurisdiction' it wouldn't matter doesn't go very far in explaining why the events unfolded the way they did.

Most of the posts in this thread can be divided between two perspectives, one that recognises the Thai context for this tragedy, and one that applies a non-Thai - specifically a Western, developed-world - context.

This isn't 'making excuses', it's trying to understand how this could happen. If we don't understand all the ramifications and causative factors, remote as well as proximate, we aren't making things any safer for the next foreigner who potentially antagonises (whether intentionally or unintentionally) Thai law enforcement. (Yes the jury is still out on whether that was the case here but there are strong indications it was, for now.)

It really doesn't matter who is 'right' in a global sense, if you're trying to prevent future incidents such as this.

Awareness needs raising on both sides. Whatever the legal outcome of the case is, let's hope everyone -- yes, especially Thai police culture -- learns a few things that can be put into practice so as to prevent future incidents of the kind. And if Thai police cannot be or will not be educated on this point, then at least foreign residents and visitors may gain a further understanding, perhaps even to the point of saving someone's life some day.

Thai culture also cuts both ways in this context e.g. the politician's son who whipped out a gun and shot a traffic cop in the neck in front of a whole rush hour traffic jam in Patanakarn Road, Bangkok, because he got angry at being pulled over. Should the policeman have been more careful in dealing with motorists because he realized, or should have realized, that in Thai society there are people who will shot a policeman without a second thought just because they know they can do so with impunity? Did he bring it on himself due to a failure to recognize his lowly status in the eyes of those above him in the food chain? (BTW the policeman survived.) The fact that the police "mysteriously" decided to drop the charges of attempted murder and firearms charges seem to imply that the answer to that question was yes.

However knowledgable one is about Thai culture the lack of rule of law means that no one can consider themselves totally safe from this type of incident. Sadly the vast majority of victims of this lack of rule of law are Thai. Some of them are even policemen.

I agree with both of you here, and with Arkday 100%.

I agree with a lot of what SJ says, but I think it does matter who is "right" and "wrong" in a global sense. Proper etiquette can take you a long way in Thailand, but as Arkady mentioned, it doesn't completely protect you from harm and injustice, and to think so is dangerously close to assuming a false sense of security. When bad things do happen, there is no reliable system of unbiased investigation, justice or law to uphold people's basic human and legal agency, or rights. If Thailand is a global destination, then this is a global issue.

I have not been on this thread as much as previously, but I am still lurking and watching the news on this case. I am sick so less active, but still very much interested in seeing how this case unfolds.

*I mixed up your quotes in the nested quote function - sorry. It's a pain.

Edited January 24, 2008 by kat

[Claymore]

Was that the guy who was given death threats openly by the Kanchanaburi police and was chased by them from the court house while riding his motor bike but managed to escape by riding into an army base where an army captain who hated the police sheltered him?

The only incident at the court was when Thai police pepper sprayed the press

[sabaijai]

guess it took the death of friend from a wacked out girl to get her to leave town as she was

told to do before. So sad the whole situation and her conduct took it to such extremes.

I would add that it is even sadder that the Thai Police murder people week in week out. I'm not just referring to this case but the daily grind of 15-40 murders that happen in the Kingdom (take your pick of the dubious statistics) and how many of those were carried out by the Police either in uniform or as a sideline or were pre-approved to avoid any serious investigation.

Very true. They are present and active in all criminal sectors.

Reminds me, we haven't hear for a long time from our friend BackPackThailand who actually sat in court when the Kanchanaburi cop got his circus act of a trial. His last post shows July 2004???

*He was banned? His posts relating what he saw in court are gone too...

Backpack Thailand was banned over a completely different issue.

If you have concerns regarding forum rules or moderation actions, please feel free to send me a PM or an e-mail to support[at]thaivisa[dot]com .

This thread is about the Pai shootings. Please remain on topic.

I don't know what happened to him either...But the other issues here is "Contempt of Court" - this is something that chills journalists in the West too - but here in Thailand, you CANNOT speak ill of the judgement of the court. The court rules, you shut up, you don't dare speculate on reasons for the ruling and you sure don't suggest the judges are anything other than pure as the driven snow - of course it never snows here - but there you are. Again I don't know why he was banned but certainly do be warned...if your main reason for being here is to STAY here.

having said ALL that - you need to ask yourself whether the right evidence will ever emerge in the way it would in the West. And if it doesn't? Then what? You think someone is going to "appeal" to a higher court like this was the USA becuase the prosecution didn't argue this or that? Sure! Right after we all go out for Som Tam...and tell the poo-yai how great he is!

Good points.

[yorkman]

It will be soon forgotten. Tourists playing fast and loose in a country, environment and culture they know nothing about.

[sabaijai]

Proper etiquette can take you a long way in Thailand, but as Arkady mentioned, it doesn't completely protect you from harm and injustice, and to think so is dangerously close to assuming a false sense of security.

I'm not saying proper etiquette (or more importantly, an understanding of Thai social norms) will protect you 100%. I don't think anything will protect anyone 100%, there is a degree of risk to just about every human endeavour. In fact striking a policeman in many countries can be an invitation to a beating or worse. Rule of law does not offer 100% protection either.

The reality is that Thailand is not 100% lawless, and there are occasions when the system works. Likewise there are times when even a perfect understanding of Thai norms is useless. No individual or system can eliminate risk 100%. In the case of crime in Thailand, as foreign residents and visitors we can reduce the risk somewhat by understanding socio-cultural norms (or more cynically, how the system works), and as Thai citizens we can work towards better education, better justice systems and so on.

If Thailand is a global destination, then this is a global issue.

Not really, at least not until there's a global court system If you mean this tragedy should be covered in international media, it is, albeit to a steadily diminishing degree, as happens with crime anywhere in the world.

[kat]

"Not really, at least not until there's a global court system. if you mean this tragedy should be covered in international media, it is, albeit to a steadily diminishing degree, as happens with crime anywhere in the world."

No, I was responding to your earlier comment that it didn't matter who was "right" or "wrong" on a global sense. It does matter when people from an international sphere have to face off with Thailand's legal/judiciary system, and more people are watching.

[invalidusername]

From the Pai thailand Wikipedia page:

Controversy over Police Conduct

Although it is a sleepy town in the mountains, Pai has over the past decade generated an unusual amount of controversy (even for Thailand) concerning the conduct of its local police, as well as the conduct of Thai drug enforcement police operating there. This is partially due to the proximity of Pai to drug routes from the Shan State in Burma, however given the post-2000 rise in incidents involving foreign tourists, it is evident that other factors are also at work. Some examples of this clear long-term trend in Pai include:

• On December 24th, 2001, the local Pai police arrested and jailed the owner of Bebop bar, with the rather dubious explanation that he was "letting people dance in a place of business not officially licensed as a ‘disco.’"^[7] After this event, both Bebob and Mountain Blue received additional discriminatory treatment in the form of illegal, or uneven, application of Thailand's closing-time laws. The so-called "dancing ban" by the Thai Police became a famous and well-known joke which business owners are still talking about in 2008.
  

• Also in 2001, and again in 2003, Pai district officials and police began enforcing several illegal measures ostensibly aimed at increasing "safety" for the local tourists, specifically "a ‘recommendation’ via illegal denial of permits whereby all guesthouses must have walls made from a solid material, such as wood, gypsum, compressed fibre or cement"^[8] rather than the cheaper and more traditional bamboo favored by many guesthouse owners and low-budget backpackers. Most locals suspected other motives were involved, including both a desire to "weed out" low-budget tourists and to encourage higher-priced construction that would generate higher construction kickbacks. Several locals pointed out uneven enforcement of these laws for different businesses, depending on personal relationships with the police or district officials.
  

• The so-called "War on Drugs" launched in February 2003 by former (now deposed) Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra, in which "more than 2,000 people in Thailand were killed as the government effectively declared 'open season' on those accused of involvement in the drug trade,"^[9], took a heavy toll on Pai district and downtown Pai in particular. Many locals whose family members were murdered without investigation now take an extremely skeptical view towards any police action here.^[10]
  

• In 2006, the Pai Police purchased a new mobile drug testing vehicle, and there have been numerous reported instances of the police entering bars and other establishments and randomly urine-testing foreign tourists. In many of these cases it is apparent that the searches were not performed legally. In Thailand, "when requesting urinalysis for drug identification purposes, at least one member of the Narcotics Suppression Police must be present. Regular Thai police do not have this right, nor do the Tourist Police. Second of all, there must be probable cause."^[11]. In most cases, apprehended suspects are detained in Mae Hong Son jail for a few days, then released with a "fine" typically on the order of 5,000-10,000 baht.^[12]
  

• On January 5th 2008, Pai made national and international news when an off-duty police officer, Sgt-Major Uthai Dechawiwat, fatally shot Canadian tourist John Leo Del Pinto, and shot and wounded a second Canadian tourist Carly Reisig, fleeing the scene immediately after the event.^[13][14] Nearly all involved believe that both the policeman and suspects were drunk at the time. Official police reports differ widely from eye-witness reports and it is expected that the officer will be acquitted by the Thai Justice system. In an extremely unusual development which highlights the deep integrity issues that exist with the Pai police, reporter Andrew Drummond published an editorial in The Nation where he expressed his regrets for publishing views from all sides of the story in his earlier Nation article because:
  "While the facts presented were true, they have been wrongly taken in a malicious way by many...What the journalist cannot convey sometimes is his opinion of whether the witnesses are telling the truth or show immediately what links these witnesses have to the police....I am very concerned at several aspects of this case:
  1. The police claiming that Reisig was pregnant and this had angered a jealous foreign boyfriend.
     
     
  2. The claims by the police shooter that he had been out of town before the shooting, when other witnesses were saying the officer was drinking heavily that night in Pai.
     
     
  3. The threats to prosecute Reisig for assault on police.
     
     
  4. The automatic bail for the police gunman.
     
     
  5. The fact that local police are investigating themselves.
     
     
  6. The claims that the gun had discharged three times accidentally."
     ^[15]
     
     

[Galong]

Perfect! Expose these dirty cops and hopefully impact the tourism to this region. Loss of face seems to be more powerful than honesty and justice unfortunately.

[Jai Dee]

Hundreds of mourners crowd Calgary church for funeral of man killed in Thailand

CALGARY - Family members of a Canadian man shot and killed in Thailand early this month were overcome with grief Thursday as he was laid to rest.

Leo John Del Pinto, 24, died after being shot in the face and chest in the northern Thai town of Pai earlier this month Del Pinto's father, mother, grandmother and two sisters sobbed as they touched the casket, draped in a white cloth before it was carried out of Our Lady of Grace Catholic Church.

"It was very hard to see my son for the last time at the funeral home but I have a little bit of closure because I know he's in a good place," said Ernie Del Pinto, talking to reporters at the family home in northwest Calgary.

"We all said goodbye. We put him in the hearse and I just feel so sad that my son had to die this way."

Del Pinto's family believes he was shot at point-blank range while defending his friend Carly Reisig of Chilliwack, B.C., after a man punched her in the head.

A Thai police officer has been charged with premeditated murder in the shooting death of Del Pinto, who was 24, and with "intent to kill" in the wounding of Reisig.

But the officer was released on bail less than a day after Del Pinto's death.

Reisig, who also shot in the chest during the altercation and is recovering in a Thai hospital, has said she is worried about her safety and that of her Thai boyfriend, who also witnessed the shootings.

And while the priest conducting the funeral service was preaching the importance of forgiveness, that is something the grieving father is finding difficult.

"You know, the father's sermon was fantastic. The forgiveness part? I'm going to say I forgive but I don't forget because it's hard. Shot cold dead...how could you possibly forgive a guy like this or forget?".

"I'm Catholic but this man has got to be brought to justice. I don't care if he gets the death penalty," he added. "I'm still angry. It's just bundled up. I'm angry at everything."

Hundreds of people crowded into the church and others stood outside the doors listening to the service.

"My son had a lot of friends. If he was a bad kid we wouldn't have had these people. These people there didn't come for me, these people came for Leo."

Two Thai witnesses who were in the restaurant prior to the altercation involving Del Pinto and Reisig have now come forward, according to family spokesman Ross Fortune.

"Both have confirmed most of the details of Carly's story," said Ross Fortune. "It appears the off duty police officer did walk up and was not incited by anything Leo or Carly was doing."

The biggest fear of the Del Pinto family that the officer, who is reportedly taking part in the investigation, will not face justice.

Fortune is hopeful the two new witnesses will make the difference.

" They've vowed to testify in the court case which we expect to happen within the next 30 days. The justice system is very swift there," he said.

"The investigation should be wrapping up very quickly and within 30 days this individual will be brought forward to stand trial."

Source: The Canadian Press - 25 January 2008

[permanent_disorder]

I think there comes a point when anyone who has been following these ad nauseum "serial apologist posters" realizes that there simply can be no realsitic motivation for anyone with anything better to do than sit here and constantly defend the Thai policeman and his motives - especially in light of what appears to be pretty damning evidence to the contrary.

what is the evidence? could you give a summary?

[yorkman]

I think there comes a point when anyone who has been following these ad nauseum "serial apologist posters" realizes that there simply can be no realsitic motivation for anyone with anything better to do than sit here and constantly defend the Thai policeman and his motives - especially in light of what appears to be pretty damning evidence to the contrary.

what is the evidence? could you give a summary?

I can give a summary.

2 tourists, a couple, who wanted to tour around Thailand and think they can do as they please if they come here.

They get a bit over the top. The lady decides to "integrate"

And then in a boozy argumentative moment about their relationship they meet a nutter with a gun, and they do not move away.

Another statistic, nothing more, pure stupidity

[DamianMavis]

I think there comes a point when anyone who has been following these ad nauseum "serial apologist posters" realizes that there simply can be no realsitic motivation for anyone with anything better to do than sit here and constantly defend the Thai policeman and his motives - especially in light of what appears to be pretty damning evidence to the contrary.

what is the evidence? could you give a summary?

I can give a summary.

2 tourists, a couple, who wanted to tour around Thailand and think they can do as they please if they come here.

They get a bit over the top. The lady decides to "integrate"

And then in a boozy argumentative moment about their relationship they meet a nutter with a gun, and they do not move away.

Another statistic, nothing more, pure stupidity

What boozy argumentative story about their relationship? And you think she is pregnant too dont you? These stories were being spread as propaganda by the police to try to support a motive for the cop to approach them. Its already been proven that both the argument and the pregnancy were false stories. Carly was with her THAI boyfriend. And how do you know they didnt move away? Oh right because the POLICE said that all three of them attacked the cop for no reason, right I forgot about that blatant ridiculous lie... but uh, why are you believing it? Even if you dont believe that the cop just ran up and hit her, do you really believe that lame story of Carly, Leo AND Fuen (the Thai boyfriend) all attacking the cop for no reason and THEN his gun fell out of his holster and suddenly that initiated a struggle for the gun which led to 3 ACCIDENTAL bullets being fired killing one and mortally wounding another?. I doubt you even read these things right? No where has it been proven that a gun was pulled on them and they attacked with a gun pointed right at them, this is outrageously silly to even think of buying into. So I dont know what you are calling stupidity.

Damian

Edited January 25, 2008 by DamianMavis

[endure]

Perfect! Expose these dirty cops and hopefully impact the tourism to this region. Loss of face seems to be more powerful than honesty and justice unfortunately.

If tourist figures fall the only people who'll suffer are the guesthouse and nightclub owners who have no influence over the behaviour of the police and who seem to get a fair amount of stick from the BiB themselves.

[yorkman]

What boozy argumentative story about their relationship? And you think she is pregnant too dont you? These stories were being spread as propaganda by the police to try to support a motive for the cop to approach them. Its already been proven that both the argument and the pregnancy were false stories. Carly was with her THAI boyfriend. And how do you know they didnt move away? Oh right because the POLICE said that all three of them attacked the cop for no reason, right I forgot about that blatant ridiculous lie... but uh, why are you believing it? Even if you dont believe that the cop just ran up and hit her, do you really believe that lame story of Carly, Leo AND Fuen (the Thai boyfriend) all attacking the cop for no reason and THEN his gun fell out of his holster and suddenly that initiated a struggle for the gun which led to 3 ACCIDENTAL bullets being fired killing one and mortally wounding another?. I doubt you even read these things right? No where has it been proven that a gun was pulled on them and they attacked with a gun pointed right at them, this is outrageously silly to even think of buying into. So I dont know what you are calling stupidity.

Damian

Don't rant Damien,

And try to put into paragraphs so it is readable......

Do you actually live in Thailand?

[DamianMavis]

What boozy argumentative story about their relationship? And you think she is pregnant too dont you? These stories were being spread as propaganda by the police to try to support a motive for the cop to approach them. Its already been proven that both the argument and the pregnancy were false stories. Carly was with her THAI boyfriend. And how do you know they didnt move away? Oh right because the POLICE said that all three of them attacked the cop for no reason, right I forgot about that blatant ridiculous lie... but uh, why are you believing it? Even if you dont believe that the cop just ran up and hit her, do you really believe that lame story of Carly, Leo AND Fuen (the Thai boyfriend) all attacking the cop for no reason and THEN his gun fell out of his holster and suddenly that initiated a struggle for the gun which led to 3 ACCIDENTAL bullets being fired killing one and mortally wounding another?. I doubt you even read these things right? No where has it been proven that a gun was pulled on them and they attacked with a gun pointed right at them, this is outrageously silly to even think of buying into. So I dont know what you are calling stupidity.

Damian

Don't rant Damien,

And try to put into paragraphs so it is readable......

Do you actually live in Thailand?

The paragraph is pretty small, don't see the problem.

Yes of course I live here going on 5 years almost, I'm the one that usually asks the apologists that question heh.

Damian

[Galong]

Perfect! Expose these dirty cops and hopefully impact the tourism to this region. Loss of face seems to be more powerful than honesty and justice unfortunately.

If tourist figures fall the only people who'll suffer are the guesthouse and nightclub owners who have no influence over the behaviour of the police and who seem to get a fair amount of stick from the BiB themselves.

True, but perhaps the locals won't be so interested in supporting the police's story if this happens again. Perhaps the locals will confront the cops for what they did and how they handled this murder.

I personally don't care if it affects nightclubs. Thailand shouldn't be about drinking in my opinion. So much of the trouble that arises between tourists, expats and locals is the result of drinking. The relationships we form should be about culture, nature and friendships... leaving alcohol out of it would only be a positive move... in my opinion.

[jumnien]

Perfect! Expose these dirty cops and hopefully impact the tourism to this region. Loss of face seems to be more powerful than honesty and justice unfortunately.

If tourist figures fall the only people who'll suffer are the guesthouse and nightclub owners who have no influence over the behaviour of the police and who seem to get a fair amount of stick from the BiB themselves.

True, but perhaps the locals won't be so interested in supporting the police's story if this happens again. Perhaps the locals will confront the cops for what they did and how they handled this murder.

I personally don't care if it affects nightclubs. Thailand shouldn't be about drinking in my opinion. So much of the trouble that arises between tourists, expats and locals is the result of drinking. The relationships we form should be about culture, nature and friendships... leaving alcohol out of it would only be a positive move... in my opinion.

Good post. While we all agree that the likes of drunken abusive farang women with tatooed balls orbiting one eye should not be shot by policemen just for acting extremely culturally insensitve, most of us believe there is much that the farang population can improve in its own behavior that would bring far less grief from the Thais. Courage to change the things we can - ourselves! Next time you see yourself in a potentially confrontative situation here in Thailand I suggest you smile, lower your head in respect and gracefully exit the situation - works very well with Thais and even better with other farangs! Simple things can save lives!

[kash]

[*]In 2006, the Pai Police purchased a new mobile drug testing vehicle, and there have been numerous reported instances of the police entering bars and other establishments and randomly urine-testing foreign tourists. In many of these cases it is apparent that the searches were not performed legally. In Thailand, "when requesting urinalysis for drug identification purposes, at least one member of the Narcotics Suppression Police must be present. Regular Thai police do not have this right, nor do the Tourist Police. Second of all, there must be probable cause."^[11]. In most cases, apprehended suspects are detained in Mae Hong Son jail for a few days, then released with a "fine" typically on the order of 5,000-10,000 baht.^[12]

Excellent, the world has no need for drug abusers - and the only way to let people know is to crack down on it, whether it is by the book or not. The urine test doesn't lie, whether the approach is by the book or not.

Edited January 26, 2008 by kash

[Pierrot]

100% agree with the last posts. Thailand is a great country that doesn't deserve the reputation it has abroad.

Thailand has much more to offer than cheap drugs and prostitutes. People who look for trouble and find it shoudn't deserve some much attention.

[jumnien]

While the following quote from another thread doesn't necessarily apply to all with tatoos, it is curiously applicable to this thread:

Psychologists on Tattoos

One certainly does not need to be a sociopath in order to get tattoos, nor does the appearance of a tattoo mean that a person is one. However, numerous studies have shown that most sociopaths do indeed have tattoos as being one of their strongest common factors. In addition, a well-known crime writer stated in an interview that every single one of the many serial killers he had spoken with had had multiple tattoos. For many people, tattoos hold no negative connotation; for those who already have serious personality defects, tattoos are often a very visible symbol of it. For those in the latter category, everything about tattoos has an entirely different purpose and meaning than it does to the majority-- why they feel the need to get them, and what they represent.

Psychologists tend to refer to tattoos as "body modification;" and most have both very strong opinions and knowledge about how tattoos are connected to those who are in the minority. On the most clearly defined side, psychologists state that for those who already exhibit signs of personality defects, tattoos are but an extension of their anti-social personalities. It is said that these types of individuals who engage in drug use, promiscuity, and violence, merely make tattoos a part of that particular lifestyle.

Psychologists state that these traits, coupled with tattoos, are linked to subclinical psychopathy. In clearer terms, for this segment of the population, getting tattoos is yet another means of "thumbing one's nose" at society, and of displaying one's sense of self-importance. As one of the foundations of sociopathy is to refuse to adhere to what is generally considered to be acceptable behavior. given that tattoos still have some degree of negativity associated with them, they are of special allure to those who already have serious personality problems. For these people, acquiring tattoos is primarily an aggressive means of defying what is conventional.

In using tattoos in this manner, one also presents a "tough" image. The problem with this is when one uses what to most people is relatively harmless to portray a sense of toughness, it is rare that the individual in question will stop at artwork. For one who connects tattoos with toughness, aggression in his behavior is also a very real possibility.

While this fact is relevant to sociopaths in general, and cannot afford to be overlooked, it takes on an even darker side for those who commit serious violent crimes. In research regarding serial killers, a much worse connection comes up about tattoos. Continuing with the factors already evident in sociopaths, there are the additional factors of causing bodily harm and of refusing to let go. In plainer terms, these types of individuals gain tattoos-- often by their own attempts-- both as a means of expressing hatred and as a means of permanently holding on to the objects of their hatred.

On a slightly lesser but still important scale, as most of the individuals who fall into the categories of sociopaths and violent criminals were subjected to severe abuse in childhood, it is relevant to note that it is not unusual at all for them to display, in their adult life, tattoos with the name or some representative symbol of their abusive parent.

When facts like this are taken into consideration, even if much of the population isn't aware of it, it's no wonder tattoos have such a negative reputation. While it is true that most people in the United States of America choose to get tattoos for no negative reason and no underlying motives whatsoever, learning that tattoos are a common standard amongst sociopaths and serial killers does tend to lend a less-than-desirable quality to the entire subject.

[ChiangMaiAmerican]

Thats funny. I have a friend in the US who is the psychologist for a major police department in the Southeast. He has a tattoo he got when he was in the Navy. He completed his education on active duty and became a Naval medical officer. I wonder what he thinks of this expert's opinion?

Edited January 26, 2008 by ChiangMaiAmerican

[Pierrot]

While the following quote from another thread doesn't necessarily apply to all with tatoos, it is curiously applicable to this thread:

Psychologists on Tattoos

......

When facts like this are taken into consideration, ....

I was really impressed by the logic. I was about to reply something about Socrat and his cat but I like this one better :

Fact 1 : The Japanese eat very little fat, and suffer fewer heart attacks than Americans, British or Australians;

Fact 2 : The French eat lots of fat, and suffer fewer heart attacks than Americans, British or Australians;

Fact 3 : The Japanese drink very little red wine, and suffer fewer heart attacks than Americans, British or Australians;

Fact 4 : The French drink excessive amounts of red wine, and suffer fewer heart attacks than Americans, British or Australians.

Conclusion: Eat and drink whatever you like, and in any quantities; it’s speaking English that kills you.

¿Habla Español anybody ?

[advice]

While the following quote from another thread doesn't necessarily apply to all with tatoos, it is curiously applicable to this thread:

Psychologists on Tattoos

One certainly does not need to be a sociopath in order to get tattoos, nor does the appearance of a tattoo mean that a person is one. However, numerous studies have shown that most sociopaths do indeed have tattoos as being one of their strongest common factors. In addition, a well-known crime writer stated in an interview that every single one of the many serial killers he had spoken with had had multiple tattoos. For many people, tattoos hold no negative connotation; for those who already have serious personality defects, tattoos are often a very visible symbol of it. For those in the latter category, everything about tattoos has an entirely different purpose and meaning than it does to the majority-- why they feel the need to get them, and what they represent.

Psychologists tend to refer to tattoos as "body modification;" and most have both very strong opinions and knowledge about how tattoos are connected to those who are in the minority. On the most clearly defined side, psychologists state that for those who already exhibit signs of personality defects, tattoos are but an extension of their anti-social personalities. It is said that these types of individuals who engage in drug use, promiscuity, and violence, merely make tattoos a part of that particular lifestyle.

Psychologists state that these traits, coupled with tattoos, are linked to subclinical psychopathy. In clearer terms, for this segment of the population, getting tattoos is yet another means of "thumbing one's nose" at society, and of displaying one's sense of self-importance. As one of the foundations of sociopathy is to refuse to adhere to what is generally considered to be acceptable behavior. given that tattoos still have some degree of negativity associated with them, they are of special allure to those who already have serious personality problems. For these people, acquiring tattoos is primarily an aggressive means of defying what is conventional.

In using tattoos in this manner, one also presents a "tough" image. The problem with this is when one uses what to most people is relatively harmless to portray a sense of toughness, it is rare that the individual in question will stop at artwork. For one who connects tattoos with toughness, aggression in his behavior is also a very real possibility.

While this fact is relevant to sociopaths in general, and cannot afford to be overlooked, it takes on an even darker side for those who commit serious violent crimes. In research regarding serial killers, a much worse connection comes up about tattoos. Continuing with the factors already evident in sociopaths, there are the additional factors of causing bodily harm and of refusing to let go. In plainer terms, these types of individuals gain tattoos-- often by their own attempts-- both as a means of expressing hatred and as a means of permanently holding on to the objects of their hatred.

On a slightly lesser but still important scale, as most of the individuals who fall into the categories of sociopaths and violent criminals were subjected to severe abuse in childhood, it is relevant to note that it is not unusual at all for them to display, in their adult life, tattoos with the name or some representative symbol of their abusive parent.

When facts like this are taken into consideration, even if much of the population isn't aware of it, it's no wonder tattoos have such a negative reputation. While it is true that most people in the United States of America choose to get tattoos for no negative reason and no underlying motives whatsoever, learning that tattoos are a common standard amongst sociopaths and serial killers does tend to lend a less-than-desirable quality to the entire subject.

lol, what a joke..

[Maxi101]

100% agree with the last posts. Thailand is a great country that doesn't deserve the reputation it has abroad.

Thailand has much more to offer than cheap drugs and prostitutes. People who look for trouble and find it shoudn't deserve some much attention.

**************************************

QUOTE (invalidusername @ 2008-01-25 11:43:33) [*]In 2006, the Pai Police purchased a new mobile drug testing vehicle, and there have been numerous reported instances of the police entering bars and other establishments and randomly urine-testing foreign tourists. In many of these cases it is apparent that the searches were not performed legally. In Thailand, "when requesting urinalysis for drug identification purposes, at least one member of the Narcotics Suppression Police must be present. Regular Thai police do not have this right, nor do the Tourist Police. Second of all, there must be probable cause."^[11]. In most cases, apprehended suspects are detained in Mae Hong Son jail for a few days, then released with a "fine" typically on the order of 5,000-10,000 baht.^[12

Well, I beg to differ a little - if they are really so corrupt ... who would deny the possibility that they just let you piss, and say there is drugstuff inside, even if there isn't and you gonna pay because you wanna be free ... ?

NOOOooooo they won't dare that .....................

maxi

[jeffer]

Police corrupt in Thailand? Next you'll be saying they kidnap and extort people...

The Nation

[Tony Clifton]

100% agree with the last posts. Thailand is a great country that doesn't deserve the reputation it has abroad.

Thailand has much more to offer than cheap drugs and prostitutes. People who look for trouble and find it shoudn't deserve some much attention.

You left out human trafficking, child prostitution, slavery, corruption at every level, rescue teams shooting at each other, dangerous roads and drivers, intellectual property, etc.

Edited January 26, 2008 by Tony Clifton