Australian Aged Pension

[Will27]

3 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

I hope it never happens, but proposed changes have been put forward.  Who in government is going to vote against them when they are such a good money maker and lose no votes?

 

Did you go to the Embassy in Bangkok and vote in the last election?  

 

Huh?

 

You say they can't reduce the pension by 30% but can tax the pension accordingly, which for a non resident for taxation purposes, is around 30%.  Haven't you just agreed with the point I am making?

 

Have you read the proposed changes?  Why do you think they will not come in?  Why do you think expat pensions will be exempt?  What about those expats that rent out a house or have some supplementary income from shares and the like?  All of that will be taxed at non resident rates. 

 

They will not be portrayed as vulnerable.  They will be portrayed as having a better lifestyle on the Aussie tax payers money.

 

What about the headline, "Aussie pensioners living the high life in Thailand on your tax payer dollars."     Nothing like a bit jealousy to gain support for taxing overseas pensions.

 

What about the headline, "Aussie tax payers supporting foreign economies."  Should gain a bit of patriotism and racism in support for the changes.

 

If you think the Australian government, or the tax payers in Australia, care about expat pensioners living abroad, then it's you who has your in the sand.   

Once again you twist things to suit your narrative.

 

I do vote at the Embassy actually, but that doesn't mean a thing.

 

You said "the "Gov" will just pay around 30% less a fortnight.  

I've told you Centrelink and the ATO are obviously different.

Centrelink will pay your full pension that you're entitled to.

 

What the ATO does is a different matter.

Our tax system is still "self assessement" and I'm sure peope will still tick

they're a non-resident for tax purposes even if it's incorrect.

 

It will then be up to the ATO to decide what to do.

 

You're like a dog with a bone mate.

I've asked you before to stop asking me why the proposes changes won't come in.

 

You don't think papers will run with "pensioners to be hit with extra tax charges"?

 

LOL

Of course they will.

 

 

 

 

 

[giddyup]

1 hour ago, Lacessit said:

True, we are not spending our pensions in the Australian economy. If there are proponents of taxing pensions of people living overseas, they conveniently forget we don't cost anything in rent assistance, the PBS, telephone and energy supplements etc. We don't get the sweeteners handed out by politicians hoping to keep us onside. We don't take up space at Centrelink offices, and we are zero burden on the Australian health system.

Plus the health care system, which would be a huge cost to the taxpayer.

[Lacessit]

1 hour ago, giddyup said:

Plus the health care system, which would be a huge cost to the taxpayer.

Perhaps you mean the aged care system, I mentioned health already.

[KhunHeineken]

8 hours ago, giddyup said:

There are approx. 100,000 Aussie pensioners living abroad, a drop in the ocean in terms of government spending.  

Australia is broke.  They will take that drop in the ocean, and anything else they can get.  

[Olmate]

9 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Australia is broke.  They will take that drop in the ocean, and anything else they can get.  

Your obviously not up with the election promises????

[KhunHeineken]

8 hours ago, scorecard said:

I wonder how many total dollars this is (per annum), compared to all spending by pensioners resident in Australia?  

They'll take every dollar they can. 

 

8 hours ago, scorecard said:

There's still the argument that penioners should be free to spend their pension money as they please. Many have contributed a lot to the building of Australia for a lifetime.

You will be able to spend it how you please, but as a non resident for taxation purposes, you may just end up with less to spend.

 

8 hours ago, scorecard said:

There's also the argument whether folks who are on the DVA Service Pension (especially war veterans) and now living abroad, should be subject to the resident/non-resident arguments.

 

Why would they be exempt?  It's still a government pension, and they are living outside of Australia for more than 183 days a year.

 

8 hours ago, scorecard said:

There's also cases where older Australians live abroad because they need care and support and they have no family left in Australia (me), but do have family abroad who want to take care of them. 

There may be an appeal mechanism, but it's sure to be very bureaucratic.  

 

 

[KhunHeineken]

7 hours ago, deej said:

Mission Impossible.

Beside,s, sadly you are becoming a broken record  player on this topic????

What's mission impossible?  You don't think the laws will pass?

 

Pretty important topic for all Aussie expats, don't you think?  

[KhunHeineken]

7 hours ago, Will27 said:

You said "the "Gov" will just pay around 30% less a fortnight.  

I've told you Centrelink and the ATO are obviously different.

Centrelink will pay your full pension that you're entitled to.

Doesn't Centerlink already withhold some pension if you are out of the country for more than 6 weeks, or you tell them you will be?  If so, if you are outside Australia indefinitely, I guess they will just withhold the non resident amount.  

 

7 hours ago, Will27 said:

What the ATO does is a different matter.

Our tax system is still "self assessement" and I'm sure peope will still tick

they're a non-resident for tax purposes even if it's incorrect.

The 183 day rule takes away some of that self assessment, doesn't it? 

 

We want to remain residents of Australia for taxation purposes, not become non residents for taxation purposes. 

 

As the various links say, the changes simplify the system.  183 days in, resident, 183 days outside, non resident.  

 

7 hours ago, Will27 said:

I've asked you before to stop asking me why the proposes changes won't come in.

 

You don't think papers will run with "pensioners to be hit with extra tax charges"?

 

LOL

Of course they will.

I've posted a link where it sounds like they may already be in.  

 

Funny how when the changes were proposed there was nothing about it in the papers.  Maybe it will be in the papers after they have passed, when it's too late.  ????  

[KhunHeineken]

1 hour ago, Olmate said:

Your obviously not up with the election promises????

????

 

Keep borrowing, keep printing.  Banana Republic here we come.  ????  

[Will27]

49 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Doesn't Centerlink already withhold some pension if you are out of the country for more than 6 weeks, or you tell them you will be?  If so, if you are outside Australia indefinitely, I guess they will just withhold the non resident amount.  

 

The 183 day rule takes away some of that self assessment, doesn't it? 

 

We want to remain residents of Australia for taxation purposes, not become non residents for taxation purposes. 

 

As the various links say, the changes simplify the system.  183 days in, resident, 183 days outside, non resident.  

 

I've posted a link where it sounds like they may already be in.  

 

Funny how when the changes were proposed there was nothing about it in the papers.  Maybe it will be in the papers after they have passed, when it's too late.  ????  

"Doesn't Centerlink already withhold some pension if you are out of the country for more than 6 weeks, or you tell them you will be?  If so, if you are outside Australia indefinitely, I guess they will just withhold the non resident amount."

 

Read what I posted again.

I said you will be paid the pension you're entitled to.

Obviously if you're out of the country for 6 weeks, you're not entitled to it.

 

"I guess they will just withhold the non resident amount."

 

That's all you do, guess.

There's no law bought in as yet,

And it if was, it would be managed by the ATO.

 

"The 183 day rule takes away some of that self assessment, doesn't it?"

 

Of course it doesn't.

You will still be asked if you're a resident for tax purposes.

It will be up to the individual to decide what box to tick.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[scorecard]

2 minutes ago, Will27 said:

"Doesn't Centerlink already withhold some pension if you are out of the country for more than 6 weeks, or you tell them you will be?  If so, if you are outside Australia indefinitely, I guess they will just withhold the non resident amount."

 

Read what I posted again.

I said you will be paid the pension you're entitled to.

Obviously if you're out of the country for 6 weeks, you're not entitled to it.

 

"I guess they will just withhold the non resident amount."

 

That's all you do, guess.

There's no law bought in as yet,

And it if was, it would be managed by the ATO.

 

"The 183 day rule takes away some of that self assessment, doesn't it?"

 

Of course it doesn't.

You will still be asked if you're a resident for tax purposes.

It will be up to the individual to decide what box to tick.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ultimately if you're out of Australia the allowance which cancels is the Energy Allowance (I think about AUD11- per fortnight).

 

The basic pension is not reduced (for short-term out or forever out). 

 

Adjustments for cost of living etc., are done twice a year, same amount for oap recipeients in or out of the country. 

[KhunHeineken]

2 hours ago, Will27 said:

Read what I posted again.

I said you will be paid the pension you're entitled to.

Obviously if you're out of the country for 6 weeks, you're not entitled to it.

Well, I believe you are still entitled to it, just a reduced amount.

 

The point being, they know you are out of the country, and to withhold the appropriate amount of pension.  How convenient for them, and quite easily tweaked to fit in with their new non residency test tax laws.

 

2 hours ago, Will27 said:

That's all you do, guess.

There's no law bought in as yet,

And it if was, it would be managed by the ATO.

And that's all you do, attack people who who offer up their opinion, thoughts, predictions, examples, and links. 

 

Stop shooting the messenger, and post about the issues at hand.   

 

2 hours ago, Will27 said:

Of course it doesn't.

You will still be asked if you're a resident for tax purposes.

It will be up to the individual to decide what box to tick.

 

How doesn't it?

 

You can tick whatever box you like.  Tick them all, and take an each way bet.

 

Immigration know you have been outside of Australia for 183 days, they pass that information on to the ATO. 

 

When the ATO contact you, be sure to tell them they have made an error because you ticked a box.  ????   

[KhunHeineken]

2 hours ago, scorecard said:

Ultimately if you're out of Australia the allowance which cancels is the Energy Allowance (I think about AUD11- per fortnight).

 

The basic pension is not reduced (for short-term out or forever out). 

 

Adjustments for cost of living etc., are done twice a year, same amount for oap recipeients in or out of the country. 

All I am suggesting is, the way they cancel the energy allowance because they know you are outside of Australia, may be the same way they implement the non resident taxation of pensions. 

 

Easily done, because they are already doing it for this allowance.  

[deej]

12 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

What's mission impossible?  You don't think the laws will pass?

 

Pretty important topic for all Aussie expats, don't you think?  

Personally , i have  all  my book,s , in question,  legally prepared,  and executed by my Financial Company ,so no sweat ,from me,  on your Trolling measure,s on this topic, and sure many other Expats have done the same???? and possibly as  DIY????

 

 

[KhunHeineken]

49 minutes ago, deej said:

Personally , i have  all  my book,s , in question,  legally prepared,  and executed by my Financial Company ,so no sweat ,from me,  on your Trolling measure,s on this topic, and sure many other Expats have done the same???? and possibly as  DIY????

 

 

My finances have been in order for the last several years I have been living in South East Asia.  My accountant submits my tax return every year.  Like many others here, I have flown under the radar for some years, because technically, I am a non resident for taxation purposes.

 

When the 183 day law comes in, I expect to get an email or phone call from my accountant to arrange a meeting to discuss a strategy, but even my accountant can't get around the simple fact I am outside of Australian for more than 183 days. 

 

How do you think your Financial Company is going to get around it?   

[deej]

17 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

My finances have been in order for the last several years I have been living in South East Asia.  My accountant submits my tax return every year.  Like many others here, I have flown under the radar for some years, because technically, I am a non resident for taxation purposes.

 

When the 183 day law comes in, I expect to get an email or phone call from my accountant to arrange a meeting to discuss a strategy, but even my accountant can't get around the simple fact I am outside of Australian for more than 183 days. 

 

How do you think your Financial Company is going to get around it?   

 

17 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

 

 

How do you think your Financial Company is going to get around it?   

Having resided in Thailand coming up 21 yrs fulltime, and during this time,  my Financial Company have taken care of my responsibilitys  to keep my  pension coming in monthly,  directly,to my Thailand bank account, and will continue to do so in any event of a change forth coming, 

You keep spluttering on ,the negatives of a change , which IMO is all P#ss and Wind ????

 

[KhunHeineken]

9 hours ago, deej said:

 

Having resided in Thailand coming up 21 yrs fulltime, and during this time,  my Financial Company have taken care of my responsibilitys  to keep my  pension coming in monthly,  directly,to my Thailand bank account, and will continue to do so in any event of a change forth coming, 

You keep spluttering on ,the negatives of a change , which IMO is all P#ss and Wind ????

 

You are definitely a non resident for taxation purposes.  ????  

 

No one suggested your pension would stop, it may just be for a lesser amount.  

[deej]

1 hour ago, KhunHeineken said:

You are definitely a non resident for taxation purposes.  ????  

 

No one suggested your pension would stop, it may just be for a lesser amount.  

That is your idiot call, of a lesser or change to my present incoming pension.

My retirement for over 2 decades,residing in Thailand

Is  legal  and i have payed all taxs accordingly etc etc

( absoulately no flying under  any radar)

Therfore, i consider myself a Clean Skin and IF any changes to my present incoming pension , my Financial  Company will act accordingly.

 

[KhunHeineken]

12 minutes ago, deej said:

That is your idiot call, of a lesser or change to my present incoming pension.

My retirement for over 2 decades,residing in Thailand

Is  legal  and i have payed all taxs accordingly etc etc

( absoulately no flying under  any radar)

Therfore, i consider myself a Clean Skin and IF any changes to my present incoming pension , my Financial  Company will act accordingly.

 

If you are on a pension, why do you even need a Financial Company, and what taxes do you pay?

 

I never suggested you were doing anything illegal.

 

Nothing stays the same forever.  After 20 years, you can expect some changes, and they very well may be coming soon.

 

There's not much your Financial Company can do if they decide to tax pensions going to non residents.  

 

Like I said, you will still get a pension.  No one is suggesting your pension will stop.  They may just take some out because you are a non resident. 

 

Then again, they may do nothing, but for sure your name is going to be in the data base for non resident pensioners when the 183 day rule starts.   

[giddyup]

10 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

If you are on a pension, why do you even need a Financial Company, and what taxes do you pay?

 

I never suggested you were doing anything illegal.

 

Nothing stays the same forever.  After 20 years, you can expect some changes, and they very well may be coming soon.

 

There's not much your Financial Company can do if they decide to tax pensions going to non residents.  

 

Like I said, you will still get a pension.  No one is suggesting your pension will stop.  They may just take some out because you are a non resident. 

 

Then again, they may do nothing, but for sure your name is going to be in the data base for non resident pensioners when the 183 day rule starts.   

I just received a letter from the ANZ acting on behalf of the ATO asking me to tick a form either resident or non resident for tax purposes. I ticked resident even though I've lived in Thailand for 12 years and have no ties left to Australia at all, except a bank account.

[Lacessit]

1 hour ago, giddyup said:

I just received a letter from the ANZ acting on behalf of the ATO asking me to tick a form either resident or non resident for tax purposes. I ticked resident even though I've lived in Thailand for 12 years and have no ties left to Australia at all, except a bank account.

You may be asked by ANZ to establish your residency with evidence. My credit union has.

This is what confuses most, tax residency is not necessarily the same as physical residency.

[Will27]

4 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

You may be asked by ANZ to establish your residency with evidence. My credit union has.

This is what confuses most, tax residency is not necessarily the same as physical residency.

True, it makes up a few of the conditions for residency.

IMO though, it's the most important one.

 

How for example someone living in Thailand for 10 years and never goes back to Oz, claims to be

a resident because they have a mailing address, family member or a bank account wouldn't cut it if it came to an audit.

IMO.

[KhunHeineken]

1 hour ago, giddyup said:

I just received a letter from the ANZ acting on behalf of the ATO asking me to tick a form either resident or non resident for tax purposes. I ticked resident even though I've lived in Thailand for 12 years and have no ties left to Australia at all, except a bank account.

I got that from my bank a while ago as well.

 

I also ticked resident, despite spending most of the year outside Australia.  However, I do maintain a domicile, vehicle, bank account, sim card, license, utility bill, insurances, and so on, and submit a tax return every year.  This possibly did meet the criteria of being a resident, because maintaining these things showed an intention to return to Australia. 

 

People doing the same as me have flown under the radar in the past.  The ATO hasn't bothered with the small fish like me because they would have to look at each case individually, and each person's different circumstances, and look at all the associated documents submitted.    

 

Fast forward to 2022, and the 183 day rule relieves the ATO of looking at individuals, and their personal circumstances, and all the case investigation and documents submitted.  

 

You were outside of Australia for 183 days, that's all they need to know, their proof comes from immigration, and we can't fight it.  No case by case basis anymore, no individual circumstances to be investigated, no documents to be sifted through.  It throws a big net over all Aussies outside of Australia for 183 days.  That's everyone from Paul Hogan, to the backpacker who has just finished school who is going away for a year.    

 

The 183 day rule is perfect for the ATO because it uses time, and geographic location, both of which can not be refuted by Aussies abroad, leaving nothing to review, or appeal.  I can see why they are bringing it in.  It will scoop up a lot of people, and net them a lot of money.  

 

Will just have to wait and see if the pension is deemed as "income" and is taxed at non resident rates, or, may possibly be given an exemption.  

 

You've basically made a false declaration.  I doubt there will be any repercussions, but it is an offence.  

[KhunHeineken]

8 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

You may be asked by ANZ to establish your residency with evidence. My credit union has.

This is what confuses most, tax residency is not necessarily the same as physical residency.

I think many are in for a harsh lesson about the difference in the near future.  

[KhunHeineken]

2 minutes ago, Will27 said:

True, it makes up a few of the conditions for residency.

IMO though, it's the most important one.

 

How for example someone living in Thailand for 10 years and never goes back to Oz, claims to be

a resident because they have a mailing address, family member or a bank account wouldn't cut it if it came to an audit.

IMO.

The member is definitely a non resident for tax purposes. 

 

He doesn't meet any of the old criteria to be a resident, and certainly non of the new rules coming in. 

 

In his favor, he also has nothing in Australia to tax, and that's a good thing. 

 

If he's on a pension, we'll have to wait and see how they deal with pensions when the new laws come in.   

[Will27]

1 minute ago, KhunHeineken said:

The member is definitely a non resident for tax purposes. 

 

He doesn't meet any of the old criteria to be a resident, and certainly non of the new rules coming in. 

 

In his favor, he also has nothing in Australia to tax, and that's a good thing. 

 

If he's on a pension, we'll have to wait and see how they deal with pensions when the new laws come in.   

What member are you talking about?

[KhunHeineken]

1 minute ago, Will27 said:

What member are you talking about?

giddyup

[deej]

FWIW

IF and a big IF

this 183 day  intended law is passed, it may well grandfathred in,  which will  allow the present pensioners to continue, with  happy normal retirement oversea,s????????????

 

 

[giddyup]

17 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

You may be asked by ANZ to establish your residency with evidence. My credit union has.

This is what confuses most, tax residency is not necessarily the same as physical residency.

Well, they should have asked for that proof in the letter they sent, not just asked me to tick a box.

[Will27]

Just now, KhunHeineken said:

giddyup

He's previously said he earns $30 000 a year and hasn't lodged a tax return for 12 years (from memory).

 

If that's the case, he does having income to tax, not to mention the non-lodgement of tax returns.