Australian Aged Pension

[giddyup]

56 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

Prison sentence

 

But I think a couple of years with the family would be better then being away from them twice for 183 days, i.e. I can still do what I do here, (live in the bush) away from the production plant life style, and kids can go to a rural school.

 

I figures it won't be that bad, can also hire one of those vans to move around the country during school holidays to make the most of it.

 

But I figure by then, I should be a multi-millionaire so won't need to go back, here's hoping......lol

 

Six months a year for two years in Australia is a prison sentence? This is so you can qualify for a generous aged pension indexed yearly for the rest of your life? It appears some people don't know what side their bread is buttered.

[BaanOz]

6 minutes ago, giddyup said:

Six months a year for two years in Australia is a prison sentence?

Haha, lived in a capital and not seen a fraction of it compared toThailand. Like the idea of spending that time actually seeing the country. "Grey Nomad?"

[4MyEgo]

1 hour ago, giddyup said:

Six months a year for two years in Australia is a prison sentence? This is so you can qualify for a generous aged pension indexed yearly for the rest of your life? It appears some people don't know what side their bread is buttered.

Maybe I didn't make myself clear in the previous post, six months in Australia away from the family twice a year is a prison sentence, therefore if I did decide to go back for the butter, I would take the family with me so as to spend the two years there with them.

 

We are a tight knit family and enjoy each others company, so the hiring of a van to go around during the school holidays would be a bonus.

 

I have the choice to forgo applying for the pension, "up to me", but the way I see it, 39 years of taxes paid, that is my entitlement, especially after they throw money at people who couldn't give a rats ass about Australia and fleece it to the max, including the politicians, fark that.

 

Its just the assets test that might bring me down, but then again I don't own any property, so going to have to work that out when the time comes, i.e. if I get to that ripe old age.

 

When it comes to bread and butter, don't you worry about that, I know which side the butter is on 555

Edited July 15, 2017 by 4MyEgo

[BaanOz]

On 13/07/2017 at 6:17 PM, 4MyEgo said:

I do not need to pay tax on "fully" franked dividends because the tax is already paid.

 

Hi, one other thing about this and the reason I was looking into it.
An article today reminded me:

http://www.afr.com/news/policy/tax/investors-to-lose-dividend-tax-credits-in-epic-proportions-under-taxcut-plan-20170718-gxddvp

I'm not certain but think in the future might have to pay 2.5% even on 100% fully franked shares.

 

Edit: I understand this starts with small business ie: the 27.5% tax rate but moves up (bigger business) in a few years so don't think it will effect the WOW, CBA shares etc just yet.

Edited July 20, 2017 by BaanOz

[4MyEgo]

28 minutes ago, BaanOz said:

 

Hi, one other thing about this and the reason I was looking into it.
An article today reminded me:

http://www.afr.com/news/policy/tax/investors-to-lose-dividend-tax-credits-in-epic-proportions-under-taxcut-plan-20170718-gxddvp

I'm not certain but think in the future might have to pay 2.5% even on 100% fully franked shares.

 

Edit: I understand this starts with small business ie: the 27.5% tax rate but moves up (bigger business) in a few years so don't think it will effect the WOW, CBA shares etc just yet.

That Financial Review is a pain in the A unless you are a subscriber, i.e. the link keeps going back to the main page and cannot read it unless you subscribe, but I hear what your saying, the way I see it, for 2.5% they can come and ask for it, that is if it is payable, but from my interpretation, tax is not payable if you invest in the ASX if you buy fully franked shares, if they are unfranked you have to pay 32.5c up to $87,000 earned.

 

https://www.ato.gov.au/individuals/international-tax-for-individuals/in-detail/australian-income-of-foreign-residents/withholding-from-dividends-paid-to-foreign-residents/

 

 

[ELVIS123456]

On 7/15/2017 at 3:27 PM, 4MyEgo said:

Maybe I didn't make myself clear in the previous post, six months in Australia away from the family twice a year is a prison sentence, therefore if I did decide to go back for the butter, I would take the family with me so as to spend the two years there with them.

 

We are a tight knit family and enjoy each others company, so the hiring of a van to go around during the school holidays would be a bonus.

 

I have the choice to forgo applying for the pension, "up to me", but the way I see it, 39 years of taxes paid, that is my entitlement, especially after they throw money at people who couldn't give a rats ass about Australia and fleece it to the max, including the politicians, fark that.

 

Its just the assets test that might bring me down, but then again I don't own any property, so going to have to work that out when the time comes, i.e. if I get to that ripe old age.

 

When it comes to bread and butter, don't you worry about that, I know which side the butter is on 555

Just a thought - have you looked into taking the Thai family members with you if you did the 183 days for a few years before OAP due?  Once they have a successful tourist Visa with you (they visit and dont disappear), then getting tourist Visas for 6 months at a time going forward would not be a problem. Best of both worlds then.

 

[4MyEgo]

2 hours ago, ELVIS123456 said:

Just a thought - have you looked into taking the Thai family members with you if you did the 183 days for a few years before OAP due?  Once they have a successful tourist Visa with you (they visit and dont disappear), then getting tourist Visas for 6 months at a time going forward would not be a problem. Best of both worlds then.

 

Hey ELVIS123456

 

The 183 days for a few years before the OAP will never happen, i.e. I can only be away from the family for a week at a time, at best, and then I miss them, plus I can't see the Mrs handling the 4 of them by herself, i.e. my stick is bigger.

 

Our kids have dual passports as does my wife, i.e. she got Citizenship back in July 2014 after being there for 8 years at the time of her obtaining Australian Citizenship, so there is no issue with them staying in Australia with me, but will have too for the two years because of schooling, the other two will be old enough to work or go to Uni, and if its Uni, it will be in Thailand, if its work, it will be with us in Australia for the two years until I obtain my OAP, but a lot of things can happen between now and then, e.g. I could croak it, the government moves the date to the intending age of 70, etc etc etc, so we will just have to stay healthy, and hope the government keeps it senses and doesn't F things up more for us Xpats.

 

Who knows, I might buy a block of dirt about 2 hours plus south of Sydney and live near the beach, but I doubt it as things are heaps cheaper here 555 

 

 

[halloween]

19 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

Hey ELVIS123456

 

The 183 days for a few years before the OAP will never happen, i.e. I can only be away from the family for a week at a time, at best, and then I miss them, plus I can't see the Mrs handling the 4 of them by herself, i.e. my stick is bigger.

 

Our kids have dual passports as does my wife, i.e. she got Citizenship back in July 2014 after being there for 8 years at the time of her obtaining Australian Citizenship, so there is no issue with them staying in Australia with me, but will have too for the two years because of schooling, the other two will be old enough to work or go to Uni, and if its Uni, it will be in Thailand, if its work, it will be with us in Australia for the two years until I obtain my OAP, but a lot of things can happen between now and then, e.g. I could croak it, the government moves the date to the intending age of 70, etc etc etc, so we will just have to stay healthy, and hope the government keeps it senses and doesn't F things up more for us Xpats.

 

Who knows, I might buy a block of dirt about 2 hours plus south of Sydney and live near the beach, but I doubt it as things are heaps cheaper here 555 

 

 

Just a thought, but if your wife's 8 years in Oz include a continuous 5, her spending another 2 years before retirement age would entitle her to an Oz OAP. Never a bad card to have up your sleeve.

BTW bloody cold beaches 2+hrs south of Sydney.

Edited July 29, 2017 by halloween

[giddyup]

1 hour ago, halloween said:

Just a thought, but if your wife's 8 years in Oz include a continuous 5, her spending another 2 years before retirement age would entitle her to an Oz OAP. Never a bad card to have up your sleeve.

BTW bloody cold beaches 2+hrs south of Sydney.

It might entitle her to a part pension.

[4MyEgo]

1 hour ago, halloween said:

Just a thought, but if your wife's 8 years in Oz include a continuous 5, her spending another 2 years before retirement age would entitle her to an Oz OAP. Never a bad card to have up your sleeve.

BTW bloody cold beaches 2+hrs south of Sydney.

That is a good point,  however she is 21 years my junior and would to have to wait a hell of a long time to apply for the 10/35 years of the OAP, no doubt with her having to return to Australia for a 2 year period so as to get the 10/35 years of OAP, now my rough calculations based on say $400 a week pension, would work out to be about $114 AUS or about 3,000 baht a week, hardly worth the expenses to outlay, i.e. return ticket to Australia, rent, etc etc and will be looked after when I am dead and cremated in the local temple.

[halloween]

28 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

That is a good point,  however she is 21 years my junior and would to have to wait a hell of a long time to apply for the 10/35 years of the OAP, no doubt with her having to return to Australia for a 2 year period so as to get the 10/35 years of OAP, now my rough calculations based on say $400 a week pension, would work out to be about $114 AUS or about 3,000 baht a week, hardly worth the expenses to outlay, i.e. return ticket to Australia, rent, etc etc and will be looked after when I am dead and cremated in the local temple.

Many Thais would be very happy to get B3000/week handed to them for very little now, or the indexed amount in the future. I don't expect that to change in the mid-term. Also, if she spent the 2 years for portability before reaching retirement age, she could ratchet that ratio to 12/35ths.

Very much a personal decision though.

[4MyEgo]

1 hour ago, halloween said:

Many Thais would be very happy to get B3000/week handed to them for very little now, or the indexed amount in the future. I don't expect that to change in the mid-term. Also, if she spent the 2 years for portability before reaching retirement age, she could ratchet that ratio to 12/35ths.

Very much a personal decision though.

I am sure your right.

 

But the way I see things is, calculating to live in a basic unit for two years in Sydney which is where we are from, just trying to recoup the rent money would take 7 years based on 10/35 of the OAP, i.e. about $114.00 AUS, based on a weekly rental of $400 per week, which would probably get you a two bedroom German coach roach infested unit in down town Lakemba where it isn't a pleasant place to live in my opinion, unless you like the middle eastern feel, and getting rid of those roaches is impossible unless you get a pest fumigator in every 3 months.

 

But like you said, its very much a personal decision, its just that the numbers don't add up, not including the return airfares and connecting flights, and cost of living (very expensive), so would probably be more like 10 years to recoup your outlay to get 10/35 years, of the OAP, so that would make her 77 years of age before she starts to actually collecting part of that pension.

 

[halloween]

7 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

I am sure your right.

 

But the way I see things is, calculating to live in a basic unit for two years in Sydney which is where we are from, just trying to recoup the rent money would take 7 years based on 10/35 of the OAP, i.e. about $114.00 AUS, based on a weekly rental of $400 per week, which would probably get you a two bedroom German coach roach infested unit in down town Lakemba where it isn't a pleasant place to live in my opinion, unless you like the middle eastern feel, and getting rid of those roaches is impossible unless you get a pest fumigator in every 3 months.

 

But like you said, its very much a personal decision, its just that the numbers don't add up, not including the return airfares and connecting flights, and cost of living (very expensive), so would probably be more like 10 years to recoup your outlay to get 10/35 years, of the OAP, so that would make her 77 years of age before she starts to actually collecting part of that pension.

 

You have to get past the capital city fixation driving your calculation. Plenty of country towns, even on the coast, with rents a small percentage of a dump in Sydney. And the dole is the same.

[4MyEgo]

10 minutes ago, halloween said:

You have to get past the capital city fixation driving your calculation. Plenty of country towns, even on the coast, with rents a small percentage of a dump in Sydney. And the dole is the same.

You have got it worked all out 555

[BaanOz]

9 hours ago, halloween said:

a dump in Sydney.

What! You could snap up a nice spot in Lakemba for a little bit over a mill and sell it 2 years later for a lot over a mill.
Very cosmopolitan too :)

https://www.domain.com.au/65-the-boulevarde-lakemba-nsw-2195-2013654037

Edit: Close to schools for the kids

Edited July 29, 2017 by BaanOz

[ELVIS123456]

On 7/28/2017 at 8:32 PM, 4MyEgo said:

Hey ELVIS123456

 

The 183 days for a few years before the OAP will never happen, i.e. I can only be away from the family for a week at a time, at best, and then I miss them, plus I can't see the Mrs handling the 4 of them by herself, i.e. my stick is bigger.

 

Our kids have dual passports as does my wife, i.e. she got Citizenship back in July 2014 after being there for 8 years at the time of her obtaining Australian Citizenship, so there is no issue with them staying in Australia with me, but will have too for the two years because of schooling, the other two will be old enough to work or go to Uni, and if its Uni, it will be in Thailand, if its work, it will be with us in Australia for the two years until I obtain my OAP, but a lot of things can happen between now and then, e.g. I could croak it, the government moves the date to the intending age of 70, etc etc etc, so we will just have to stay healthy, and hope the government keeps it senses and doesn't F things up more for us Xpats.

 

Who knows, I might buy a block of dirt about 2 hours plus south of Sydney and live near the beach, but I doubt it as things are heaps cheaper here 555 

 

 

I hear you mate - hope things work out for the better. We dont have kids so that makes it easier. But it is a few years away and those bastards in Govt will undoubtedly make more changes before then.

 

Good luck finding that block of dirt for sale near beach within 2 hours of Sydney 

Unless of course you have a few million spare 

 

 

 

[ELVIS123456]

On 7/29/2017 at 4:16 PM, halloween said:

Just a thought, but if your wife's 8 years in Oz include a continuous 5, her spending another 2 years before retirement age would entitle her to an Oz OAP. Never a bad card to have up your sleeve.

BTW bloody cold beaches 2+hrs south of Sydney.

Good point Halloween. It would not a be a lot as she needs 35 years to get 100% of OAP overseas, but after 10 years she would get a few thousand AUD. And that for the rest of her life would be good money in Thailand (especially if you go first). 

As you said 4myego, things could change between now and then. But if you can both end up getting a pension once you hit late 60s/70, that is worth considering.

Absolutely no reason to move to a City as others have said, and you can both get the Dole while you wait out the two years. I understand the kids add a complication, but by then they may be old enough? to be looked after by other family members - maybe.

As I have said before, I am definitely going through the process. I figure I might live til 90, and even if I only get OAP at $10K PA, that equates to $200K AUD (5.3 million Baht). And I did the math if I get OAP at $20K PA (it will be about that), so the troubles will be worth it. A few years shit in the nanny feminazi state, for 10 million Baht - priceless .

[4MyEgo]

4 hours ago, ELVIS123456 said:

I hear you mate - hope things work out for the better. We dont have kids so that makes it easier. But it is a few years away and those bastards in Govt will undoubtedly make more changes before then.

 

Good luck finding that block of dirt for sale near beach within 2 hours of Sydney 

Unless of course you have a few million spare 

 

 

 

I hear Sanctuary Point 200km south of Sydney or 25km south of Nowra you can still buy a house for under $300k

[moojar]

^ Yeah, my elderly widowed mother in law lives on around B5000 per month in her Isaan village, so I expect getting one third or whatever of an Oz pension would be very handy in our wives' latter years.

 

What happens where one partner qualifies for 100% of the pension and the other doesn't does anyone know?  Do they just reduce the married pension accordingly - 100% of your half and 66% or whatever of her half?  Most of us would be in that situation.  

 

We have been married 25 years and have lived in Oz most of that time, but my wife still only has 22 or 23 years towards her 35 years.  I guess we're unusual though, in that we are similar ages and will reach pension age within two years of each other - with the ever increasing qualification age.  

[4MyEgo]

2 minutes ago, moojar said:

^ Yeah, my elderly widowed mother in law lives on around B5000 per month in her Isaan village, so I expect getting one third or whatever of an Oz pension would be very handy in our wives' latter years.

 

What happens where one partner qualifies for 100% of the pension and the other doesn't does anyone know?  Do they just reduce the married pension accordingly - 100% of your half and 66% or whatever of her half?  Most of us would be in that situation.  

 

We have been married 25 years and have lived in Oz most of that time, but my wife still only has 22 or 23 years towards her 35 years.  I guess we're unusual though, in that we are similar ages and will reach pension age within two years of each other - with the ever increasing qualification age.  

Not 100% sure but I did hear that if the wife is younger, they reduce your pension, something to do with, her being able to work, yeh I know, so look out for that one, if you didn't get married in Aus, tell them nothing, that's what someone told me, and he was on the pension, and it happened to him.

 

If I ever do apply for it, might just have to divorce the wife a few years before hand, because she is 21 years my junior, and I don;t know how much they would reduce the OAP by, but before I get to that problem, I have to survive to get it, and shift some funds to qualify as I think they allow you up to $650,000 if you own a home, it keeps changing, and I don't own a home, but have shares and super coming up in 3 years.

[ELVIS123456]

1 hour ago, 4MyEgo said:

I hear Sanctuary Point 200km south of Sydney or 25km south of Nowra you can still buy a house for under $300k

No mate - just looked up Snactuary Point on realestate.com.au and they start over 300K for a caravan park 'house', and mid 300s for something very small/dump in Gov Housie area.  Mate, you are looking $500K up for anything half-decent anywhere near the coast in that area. You might find something OK in Nowra or West Wollongong. $350K for anything decent means going to the Eden area. If you are thinking anything decent for around $300K you need to go inland.

 

Personally I would not buy, but rent.  You get a better home and on top of whatever pension you get, you will also get rental assistance of up to $125 a week (about that).  The main reason people wait til they are eligible for OAP before they go back, is if they go beforehand, and cant get a job, they can only get the dole ($13K PA). The OAP is currently at $23K and that is a big difference.  Although if married you will only get $17K PA - but if she cant get a job, she will get the dole and between you both the total is $30K PA. 

[ELVIS123456]

1 hour ago, 4MyEgo said:

Not 100% sure but I did hear that if the wife is younger, they reduce your pension, something to do with, her being able to work, yeh I know, so look out for that one, if you didn't get married in Aus, tell them nothing, that's what someone told me, and he was on the pension, and it happened to him.

 

If I ever do apply for it, might just have to divorce the wife a few years before hand, because she is 21 years my junior, and I don;t know how much they would reduce the OAP by, but before I get to that problem, I have to survive to get it, and shift some funds to qualify as I think they allow you up to $650,000 if you own a home, it keeps changing, and I don't own a home, but have shares and super coming up in 3 years.

You are right - as per my last post if you are married your OAP is reduced - but she can either get wotk or go on the Dole if she is living in Australia with you (and she is qualified - resident etc.). 

The question regarding marriage is really about whether you are 'officially' married. Meaning that you have been through the official process through the Embassy in Bangkok etc., or you have told CLink or ATO or Immi etc. that you are married. If anyone has not made it official, then do not tell anyone in Aust Govt you are married because if you decide later to get the pension, they will reduce it (both in Aust and if you go overseas).  And the reality is that this is not a 'lie' because a Thai 'village' marriage is not recognised legally in Australia. But the aholes in Clink etc will recognise it if they know about it. My advice to all Aussies in relationship with a Thai and who is looking to go back to get the OAP,  and if the wife is not coming back with you while you qualify, to tell them nothing and go back as a single bloke.  

 

 

[moojar]

My question was about a married couple who both qualify for the pension, but one of them doesn't have the full 35 years.  If she was on a single pension then she's get 22/35 or whatever of a full single pension.  But what if we're on the married rate?    

 

We were married in Australia and are pretty well the same age, so there's no fooling C/L.  

 

Just curious if anyone knew - I'll find out one day from C/L.   

[opalred]

i grew up south of kiama 

my father sold the dairy farm  to developers for houses

 was great whole coastline to myself for fishing and beach

i think they were selling blocks for 800 pound 

[Artisi]

On Wednesday, July 12, 2017 at 10:13 PM, Flying Kiwi said:

When information comes from the horses mouth that's when we listen any other sources should be classed as conjecture at the very least, with respect to accountants WHAT would they know regards government policy on Pensions I would has at a guess there is no way that government policy would outlined to accountants before and public announcement was made there are all sorts of protocols that the government has to follow it's law.

Lets think about it, as of today  Centrlink's info page it clearly states MOST people are able to take there Aged Pension overseas. we should all take a deep breath relax and enjoy our time in whatever country we are living in because at the end of the day there is nothing we can do about it and if it does happen the changes in policy do not come into play for at least 1 year.

 

I make these comments with respect  and courtesy to all the contributors on this subject of aged pensions

 

That is exactly what I am doing, collecting my OAP in an Aussie bank account, and transfer money here as I need it. I maintain a property (leased), health insurance, licence etc and consider myself Aussie who happens to be O/S for a few years. 

My tax guy is getting a bit edgy about resident / non resident status although I have covered his arse by him not being informed I'm O/S as everything is via email each year and anytime I'm in Aus. I pay a courtesy call as if in just passing by his office. 

If ATO consider you non resident for tax purposes it's 32.5 c/$1 starting a zero income - - and that would hurt. 

So enjoy and keep the fingers crossed. 

Would be interested if anyone has any definite info from ATO on the status of residency. 

[kkerry]

My previous accountant after two years asked me to decide about my residency. If I (living in Thailand) had decided to continue paying tax like I was still living in Australia, then he said he could no longer be my accountant as it would create problems for him. I'm sure there are other accountants who wouldn't care but he did and so would my current accountant. If you stay legal then you can pay a lot more tax. It's not only the zero income base but it does impact things like franked share dividends and land tax. You do get out of paying the Medicare levy but that's about the only benefit. Overall, tax wise, I'm worse off living in Thailand than Australia but I wanted to stay legal and I wasn't prepared to dispose of my assets and investments in Australia. I know people who still pretend to the ATO they live in Australia but I don't.

[Artisi]

32 minutes ago, kkerry said:

My previous accountant after two years asked me to decide about my residency. If I (living in Thailand) had decided to continue paying tax like I was still living in Australia, then he said he could no longer be my accountant as it would create problems for him. I'm sure there are other accountants who wouldn't care but he did and so would my current accountant. If you stay legal then you can pay a lot more tax. It's not only the zero income base but it does impact things like franked share dividends and land tax. You do get out of paying the Medicare levy but that's about the only benefit. Overall, tax wise, I'm worse off living in Thailand than Australia but I wanted to stay legal and I wasn't prepared to dispose of my assets and investments in Australia. I know people who still pretend to the ATO they live in Australia but I don't.

Thanks for the comments, seems I might be facing the same situation with accountant, I'm currently trying to read all the decisions made by ATO on this subject to get a feel for their thinking (other than give us all your money)  boring but necessary. 

[halloween]

Just now, Artisi said:

Thanks for the comments, seems I might be facing the same situation with accountant, I'm currently trying to read all the decisions made by ATO on this subject to get a feel for their thinking (other than give us all your money)  boring but necessary. 

Mine has said he will ask ATO for a ruling on my status, as I will maintain Oz residence but doing a lot of travelling. This will only be applied to a possible few weeks work per year. will lodge request Dec and report back on result.

[kkerry]

"give us all your money"

 

It really does feel like that some days, but my real estate like most real estate in inner Sydney and Melbourne has proved a good investment, with capital appreciation and good rental returns, and I haven't done too badly in the stock market either so I best not complain too much. I'll never pass the assets test for the pension so that is one thing less to worry about.

 

There isn't very much you need to read. The ATO sets out the basics on their website. My feeling is, unless you are worth more than say ten million, it's probably not worth setting up trusts and investing in dubious tax avoidance schemes etc. etc. I just pay what my accountant tells me to and I sleep better at night than if all my assets were tied up in Thailand. I'm one of the many who believe you only bring to Thailand what you are prepared to walk away from, and I will never change my view. YMMV

 

[moojar]

Government agencies share information, so there's no sense trying to pretend you are in the country when you are not.  Any time you leave or enter the country it is recorded, and it is shared.  That sharing is only going to get more sophisticated over time.

 

There are a few residency tests on the ATO website.  Seems pretty clear cut to me though - you live overseas, you are not resident.  You might get away with "travelling" for a year or two, but you'd be pushing it.   The fact that accountants are walking away from clients due to nervousness over this says it all really doesn't it - you are only fooling yourself if pretending to be resident when you are not.  And possible facing a big tax bill down the track. I mean, if you are dodging 32.5% tax (more on higher incomes), they are not likely to let that go.  My wife got a "reminder" letter just recently coz she neglected to include less than $200 bank interest on her tax return <deleted>.  She didn't tell them about it, the bank has to share the information. 

 

On the bright side, the ATO had a massive data loss this past financial year due to system failure.  Expensive automated backup / recovery system failed, and it seems they are still trying to manually put the pieces back together. So that big non-resident tax bill might get delayed somewhat. 

 

Might it be worth moving money into international investments?  There are mutual funds you can invest in, similar to how our superannuation funds work.  There must be similar in countries that don't have these harsh non-resident tax rates.  I wouldn't invest in Thailand, but Switzerland?  The USA?  That sort of thing.