6 Caveats – 64-bit Windows Vista

[Guest Reimar]

How far the mass change to the 64 Bit Systems are away? The major avaibility of Hard-and Software is still 32 Bit. A lot Manufacturer and Developer even didn't produce any 64 Bit systems! And if anyone of you uses 64 Bit Windows you know already the problems which come in first place about missing Driver and second the not available software.

I came today across an intresting article about tha above mentioned facts and I'll post this article below.

""6 Caveats – 64-bit Windows Vista

- Some downsides to consider when switching to x64 Vista

There is little doubt that 64-bit architectures are the future, as far as the parallel evolution of processors and operating systems goes. But when it comes down to Windows, the 32-bit version of the platform will survive not only with Windows Vista, but also with Windows 7. At this point in time, among the scarce details made available by Microsoft about the forthcoming iteration of Windows, to follow Vista, the only sure thing is that Windows 7 will come in both 32-bit and 64-bit flavors.

According to estimates from the Redmond company, by mid 2008, the install base of the Windows operating system would surpass the 1 billion milestone worldwide. But the vast majority of those Windows copies will still be 32-bit, largely just Windows XP and Windows Vista. On the server side, Microsoft is preparing to ship the last 32-bit operating system with Windows Server 2008. The same is not valid with Vista, but perhaps maybe it will be with Windows 7.

The bottom line is that it is not all about the process and the operating system. 64-bit Windows Vista comes with great advantages compared to the 32-bit version, including superior performance and the possibility to add as much as 128 GB of RAM for the Ultimate, Business and Enterprise SKUs. But at the same time, there are a few things you should consider if you plan to switch to a x64 platform. They all revolve around the fact that the ecosystem of hardware and software products orbiting around x64 Vista is still far from maturity.

1. Device drivers

Device drivers are bound to be a problem. Just take into consideration the troubles that Vista has had with the integration of devices in terms of hardware, in 2007. And it involved both the x86 and x64 versions of the operating system. If it had been just 64-bit Vista, the whole Wow deal would have been much worse. At this point in time, there are still manufacturers that are not delivering x64 drivers.

2. Digital signatures

Well, what about when x64 drivers do exist? Well, then they have to be tailored for Vista, and the latest Windows client comes with a little something-something called Mandatory Driver Signing. All code that goes into the kernel has to be digitally signed. If not, the driver is useless, even if available.

3. Legacy drivers

But what about 32-bit drivers? Well, no, you won't be able to integrate 32-bit drivers into Vista, signed or unsigned. The code has to be 64-bit specific.

4. x64 specific programs

What's the point of running a x64 operating system if you continue to use 32-bit applications? And have you looked at the market lately? x64 specific programs are rare, and this from top software developers worldwide. Want to talk about some obscure 32-bit utility that you have become affectionate to? Well, chances are that you won't find a x64 equivalent.

5. Compatibility

But, 32-bit applications do integrate into 64-bit Windows Vista, don't they? Yes, they do. This is the good news. While you're waiting for a 64-bit variant to your application, you could run the 32-bit version. But be prepared for serious compatibility issues.

6. Hardware

Hardware is also a problem in terms of compatibility. Not all the hardware devices on the market today are compatible with 64-bit Windows Vista.

Well, in all fairness this is bound to be just a temporary situation. And as the ecosystem of third-party products around Vista will mature with the increasing adoption of 64-bit architectures, these issues will be resolved. But, Microsoft has to put its evangelism wheels in motion and provide catalysts for the transition of 64-bit Windows.""

Souce

[cali]

1. Device drivers

2. Digital signatures

3. Legacy drivers

6. Hardware

These are all the same thing and should be grouped as a single disadvantage: you need a special kind of device driver different than 32-bit. It's true.

4. x64 specific programs

While an application you run may be 32-bit, the operating system is 64-bit code. So you get a boost for all the I/O and operating system functions. Plus while a single 32-bit app can't make use of 4GB of memory, running multiple ones can. And perhaps more important, people may care not just about the apps they will run today, but also more and more take advantage of 64-bit ones in upcoming years.

5. (32-bit) Compatibility

He cited no examples and I have yet to hear of any. Sounds like a false guess to me. If someone really cares about app compatibility, don't run Vista. Vista itself broke a lot of application compatibility regardless of which edition.

7: Where is #7?

The author apparently is not aware 64-bit Vista completely cuts off running 16-bit applications. No Dos compatibility, no Windows 16-bit applications.

So in my opinion there are but 2 caveats:

1. lacks drivers

2. no Dos compatibility

Advantages:

1. Take advantage of 4GB and larger RAM

2. Run state of the art 64-bit apps

[Guest Reimar]

1. Device drivers

2. Digital signatures

3. Legacy drivers

6. Hardware

These are all the same thing and should be grouped as a single disadvantage: you need a special kind of device driver different than 32-bit. It's true.

4. x64 specific programs

While an application you run may be 32-bit, the operating system is 64-bit code. So you get a boost for all the I/O and operating system functions. Plus while a single 32-bit app can't make use of 4GB of memory, running multiple ones can. And perhaps more important, people may care not just about the apps they will run today, but also more and more take advantage of 64-bit ones in upcoming years.

5. (32-bit) Compatibility

He cited no examples and I have yet to hear of any. Sounds like a false guess to me. If someone really cares about app compatibility, don't run Vista. Vista itself broke a lot of application compatibility regardless of which edition.

7: Where is #7?

The author apparently is not aware 64-bit Vista completely cuts off running 16-bit applications. No Dos compatibility, no Windows 16-bit applications.

So in my opinion there are but 2 caveats:

1. lacks drivers

2. no Dos compatibility

Advantages:

1. Take advantage of 4GB and larger RAM

2. Run state of the art 64-bit apps

The main disadvantage in the moment are the drivers (from my point of view): avaibility and downward compatibility! Even as you can set many drivers in compatibility mode, it didn't works well or even not.

But the Digital Signature IS an problem because if the used driver('s) not digital signed, your unable to use te device. May tis is one way how MS control the cooperation with contracters and thoose which they don't want to work with!

Dos compatibility isn't a big disadvantage for me because I can run DOS based progs on VM! This problem already exist in Vista 32 Bit and XP 64 Bit!

State of the art 64 Bit Apps?! How many of them you really know and how many available?! There very little under development and it would take a long time for them to be available. Even the cost is an other factor which is still totally in the dark!

The only really advantage I see in the moment is the break of the 4 GB memory border! But is that enough?

[cali]

But the Digital Signature IS an problem because if the used driver('s) not digital signed, your unable to use te device.

No one in their right mind would release a 64-bit driver without a digital signature since there is no practical way for anyone to use it. That is why I consider digital signing a contributing factor for lack of drivers rather than a separate issue.

May tis is one way how MS control the cooperation with contracters and thoose which they don't want to work with!

Anyone can get a signing certificate and Microsoft does not issue them, they are issued by 3rd parties. The application process is tedious and it then costs about $500 per year to keep the privilege. This means less people in their garage are going to be coming up with creative drivers than before. I personally hate the signing requirement decision since I think it hurts the industry. Well maybe the tinkerers in their garage will find it more attractive to develop linux utilities instead.

Dos compatibility isn't a big disadvantage for me because I can run DOS based progs on VM! This problem already exist in Vista 32 Bit and XP 64 Bit!

No, 32-bit Vista runs Dos apps just fine. And needing to fire up a VM under 64-bits in order to run a simple command line util is too cumbersome for me.

State of the art 64 Bit Apps?! How many of them you really know and how many available?

One example is Virtual PC can host 64-bit operating systems in a VM only if you are running 64-bit Windows. There are also some special edition games recompiled 64-bits that boost their abilities a little. There's more and more all the time, but it is at an embryonic stage now.

[Phil Conners]

You forgot:

SLOW SLOW SLOW

It's a new OS with a brand new LARGE set of BUGS.

It may LOOK like XP but forget everything you learned about fixing problems in XP, Vista is a whole new ballgame.

Painfully tight DRM subsystem - lots of your music and movies will no longer play.

[Guest Reimar]

But the Digital Signature IS an problem because if the used driver('s) not digital signed, your unable to use te device.

No one in their right mind would release a 64-bit driver without a digital signature since there is no practical way for anyone to use it. That is why I consider digital signing a contributing factor for lack of drivers rather than a separate issue.

There already 64 bit drivers around without to be digitally signed and that drivers didn't work in 64 bit Vista! And even a 64 Bit driver for an Photo Scanner isn't work by one of my customers! And that driver is digitally signed as well!!

May this is one way how MS control the cooperation with contracters and thoose which they don't want to work with!

Anyone can get a signing certificate and Microsoft does not issue them, they are issued by 3rd parties. The application process is tedious and it then costs about $500 per year to keep the privilege. This means less people in their garage are going to be coming up with creative drivers than before. I personally hate the signing requirement decision since I think it hurts the industry. Well maybe the tinkerers in their garage will find it more attractive to develop linux utilities instead.

Sure but to start and keep your "privilege" you've to pay an amount of money for each certificate seperatly! Do you like that?

Dos compatibility isn't a big disadvantage for me because I can run DOS based progs on VM! This problem already exist in Vista 32 Bit and XP 64 Bit!

No, 32-bit Vista runs Dos apps just fine. And needing to fire up a VM under 64-bits in order to run a simple command line util is too cumbersome for me.

Wrong! A lot apps which still running in XP without any problems didn't running in Vista and from that a lot in both 32 and 64 bit! Apps I using for years, didn't running in Vista 32 Bit and 64 Bit, so I had need to change apps to much bigger, more resource hungry apps which also working much more slow! You think I'm dreaming? That's just facts!

State of the art 64 Bit Apps?! How many of them you really know and how many available?

One example is Virtual PC can host 64-bit operating systems in a VM only if you are running 64-bit Windows. There are also some special edition games recompiled 64-bits that boost their abilities a little. There's more and more all the time, but it is at an embryonic stage now.

That's just one example of your bunch of 64 bit apps! Again: How many you really know? Anyway even your example is wrong because I was asking for 64 Bit apps which runs in Windows 64 bit, which measn: Real 64 Bit Application!

For what a 64 Bit system could be reasnoble for me if there only a handfull app available? Follow by Driver problems and much more disadvantages?

And 32 Bit software running under 64 Bit Windows while emulating the 32 Bit und Windows for to run in Windows 64 Bit are much more bad than in 32 Bit Windows! I had tested the FS-X in Xp 64 Bit and Vista Ultimate 64 Bit and can't tell anything else than to forget the 64 Bit Windows! The max Frame rate in 64 Bit XP 18 fps and Vista Ultimat 64 Bit 15 fps while get in XP 32 Bit 48 fps and Vista Ultimate 32 Bit 42 fps and that's a very big difference!

Cheers!

[cali]

There already 64 bit drivers around without to be digitally signed and that drivers didn't work in 64 bit Vista! And even a 64 Bit driver for an Photo Scanner isn't work by one of my customers! And that driver is digitally signed as well!!

Yes, I suppose there could be a few such drivers floating around made for XP-64 now that you mention it. But drivers, like applications, can break when a new version of Windows is released. The signing doesn't guarantee anything. All it does is tell you who made it, nothing more.

Sure but to start and keep your "privilege" you've to pay an amount of money for each certificate seperatly!

A company can buy one signing certificate and can use it for as many different things as they want and as many times as they want until it needs renewed. There are no costs for using a certificate. There is a fee for the logo program which maybe you are thinking of.

Wrong! A lot apps which still running in XP without any problems didn't running in Vista and from that a lot in both 32 and 64 bit! Apps I using for years, didn't running in Vista 32 Bit and 64 Bit, so I had need to change apps to much bigger, more resource hungry apps which also working much more slow! You think I'm dreaming? That's just facts!

I already stated Vista in general (regardless of 32-bit or 64-bit) breaks application compatibility compared to XP. What I said you are wrong about is regarding Dos applications. 64-bit Vista cannot run any Dos apps, but Vista 32-bit can!

That's just one example of your bunch of 64 bit apps! Again: How many you really know? Anyway even your example is wrong because I was asking for 64 Bit apps which runs in Windows 64 bit, which measn: Real 64 Bit Application!

Virtual PC does have a 64-bit native edition with native 64-bit code! The feature to run 64-bit virtual machines is crucial to me. The number of games with native 64-bit editions is too many to list! They offer more value to the user compared to their 32-bit standard version.

The max Frame rate in 64 Bit XP 18 fps and Vista Ultimat 64 Bit 15 fps while get in XP 32 Bit 48 fps and Vista Ultimate 32 Bit 42 fps and that's a very big difference!

32-bit graphics drivers have undergone years of tuning and are still used in benchmarking. Over time this performance edge will tilt to 64-bit as the graphics card guys tune and recognize they can get even higher numbers by putting more emphasis on 64-bit. Just like there was a time Windows 98 ran games faster than XP, but that changed over time. 64-bit code is faster than 32-bit. There are more hardware registers, new instructions, and native 64-bit math. 32-bit applications can never use those things. But nevertheless each new version of Windows is going to be bigger and slower than ever before. We are talking about 64-bit isssues in this thread.

[Guest Reimar]

I already stated Vista in general (regardless of 32-bit or 64-bit) breaks application compatibility compared to XP. What I said you are wrong about is regarding Dos applications. 64-bit Vista cannot run any Dos apps, but Vista 32-bit can!

Beside of any other issue, it would be a never closed one if we continue, Vista Ultimat, Vista Business, Vista Home Premium and Vista Standard, all as 32 bit version installed, are NOT able to run the dos programs I need to run! And you can believe me or not (I don't mind about that) I had tested special that many time without any success!Even ols 16 Bit Software which works very well even in XP 64 Bit isn't able to run in Vista (any Version) 32 Bit!

Second thing is that I'm NOT a gamer and the only Game I run is the Flight Simulator FS 2004 and FS-X. So I don'y know there a lot 64 Bit Games available or not but from Business software the Trend is still at 32 Bit and the avaibility of 64 Bit Software for Business use is very limited.

I don't know but for my opinion the PC's mainly used for Business and "normal" Software instead fmainly for Games. But may you think different!

Cheers.

[cali]

Vista Ultimat, Vista Business, Vista Home Premium and Vista Standard, all as 32 bit version installed, are NOT able to run the dos programs I need to run! And you can believe me or not

Oh, now I understand. It breaks some Dos applications (but not all). I agree with that. My observation is Vista-32 cannot run any graphics mode dos apps, just text mode ones. Just like XP before that broke many dos apps that access the hardware directly. Still I am able to run a few Dos apps in Vista-32, but the list keeps getting smaller until Vista-64 where it is finally none at all (unless I am desperate and open a VM).